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3 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Not really, Wells and Diedhiou both like to come short and get involved with build up, I'm not talking passes into the penalty box but the space 10 yards outside it as well, I'd have expected to see a lot more passes into that area.

I dont think either like to come short, but maybe they feel like they have no choice. A midfield 2 is always going to play less balls forward especially BCFC who for too long get the ball to Baker and then hoof to diedhiou.

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11 minutes ago, Lez said:

13 teams have under 50% possession, 11 teams over. I dont know what you're point is.

So you’re saying possession stats aren’t as important as you made out then!!! 😱😱😱

 

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7 minutes ago, Lez said:

I dont think either like to come short, but maybe they feel like they have no choice. A midfield 2 is always going to play less balls forward especially BCFC who for too long get the ball to Baker and then hoof to diedhiou.

Nahki Wells heatmap

image.png.fa6bb194ac135f66aef479627714dce5.png

Fam heat map

image.png.1abcd18d25bb18f7f193a7e6b5446196.png

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Just now, Lrrr said:

Nahki Wells heatmap

image.png.fa6bb194ac135f66aef479627714dce5.png

Fam heat map

image.png.1abcd18d25bb18f7f193a7e6b5446196.png

Which shows the problem. They are dropping deep out of necessity rather than choice because they are isolated .....which often happens for a front 2.

My argument is that it is not nagy and smiths fault.....but the wingers not getting the balls enough and getting crosses in.

Also re Fam, I wonder how many of those drop ins to CAM are due to aimless limg balls from our cente backs.

My take from this is woeful management more than anything.

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16 minutes ago, Lez said:

Quoting data that is 6-10 months old is exactly what I would expect to try and rescue an argument. How many of those games did Nagy play in by the way?

you could look it up, and base your argument on that.  I’m not even saying he’s a bad player but he’s not the all conquering Hungarian you seem to imply.  See below for a breakdown, because I can be arsed to prove my point, unlike you who just wants everyone to think your right without any foundation.

Nagy isnt nearly as bad off the ball as people make out.....this idea he is a headless chicken is bollocks as well, in fact on too mang occasionally he is too deep and misses the opportunity to push on.

6AFAC852-E09D-4080-9331-C5E32AB89A5B.thumb.jpeg.879393a3367981077a74bcf9b6ffc8d6.jpeg

Sorry if these go back too far for you....I thought it only fair to include every championship game he’s played for us!

the numbers I’ve written on are the minutes City had in possession.

Ive shaded the ones where we had greater than 50%.

Games played > 50%

- green we win (total 1)

- orange games we drew (total 3)

- red games we lost (total 5)

Games 50% or less

- 12

So to start throwing around possession stats as a defence for Nagy is a bit irrelevant.  You could argue the games we’ve had more possession we end up losing.

If you want to debate Nagy’s role in an LJ system versus Nagy’s role in another system / a better system (like @RedNachos is prepared to do) then I’m all ears and we can debate sensibly.

But if you want to carry on your current approach, then fine.  I’m furloughed, I’m here all day,

8 minutes ago, Lez said:

You've lost me.

I’m hardly surprised.  🤷🏻‍♂️

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13 hours ago, Harry said:

Personally I don’t see what Nagy provides. 
Next season I’d happily see Morrell & Walsh as a central pair, with one of Palmer/Pato/Szmodics ahead of them. 
I’m not at all bothered if Nagy isn’t here next year. 

It's easy to see why you've come to that conclusion, but I just hope that it was down to his injuries and the constant changing of personnel and systems in the team. 

There were glimpses early on of a very good player but when he came back from that first injury, he didn't look anything like what we saw before it. He always looked to me like a rabbit caught in headlights. Just sheer panic whenever he received it under any sort of pressure.

Maybe with a fresh start, injury free and perhaps someone that can instill a bit of confidence in him, he can up his game.

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30 minutes ago, Lez said:

Quoting data that is 6-10 months old is exactly what I would expect to try and rescue an argument. How many of those games did Nagy play in by the way? 

Nagy isnt nearly as bad off the ball as people make out.....this idea he is a headless chicken is bollocks as well, in fact on too mang occasionally he is too deep and misses the opportunity to push on.

 

No dont think Nagy is that good actually very disappointing considering his first few games. Best cm we have though.

So he's not the best player in the championship then?????

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2 minutes ago, Lez said:

2nd best behind your hero Marlon Pack.

To be fair I did like Marlon especially a few years ago, he was class for us. Even Pep said he was a good player. I do think we sold him at the right time though, just didn't replace him unfortunately.

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Just now, Packman said:

To be fair I did like Marlon especially a few years ago, he was class for us. Even Pep said he was a good player. I do think we sold him at the right time though, just didn't replace him unfortunately.

He is past it at this level. Slower than a tugboat turning.

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2 minutes ago, Lez said:

He is past it at this level. Slower than a tugboat turning.

Yeah, I did just say we sold him at the right time. You can't deny he was a very good player for us over the years though.

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1 minute ago, Packman said:

Yeah, I did just say we sold him at the right time. You can't deny he was a very good player for us over the years though.

I think he was overrated and made to look better by having good players around him. I think he was a solid defensive midfielder, but s more mobile player in that spot could of taken us to the next level.

1 in 5 Hollywood balls came off. Often caught in possession.

He was ok, I think a really good league 1 player.

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28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

6AFAC852-E09D-4080-9331-C5E32AB89A5B.thumb.jpeg.879393a3367981077a74bcf9b6ffc8d6.jpeg

Sorry if these go back too far for you....I thought it only fair to include every championship game he’s played for us!

the numbers I’ve written on are the minutes City had in possession.

Ive shaded the ones where we had greater than 50%.

Games played > 50%

- green we win (total 1)

- orange games we drew (total 3)

- red games we lost (total 5)

Games 50% or less

- 12

So to start throwing around possession stats as a defence for Nagy is a bit irrelevant.  You could argue the games we’ve had more possession we end up losing.

If you want to debate Nagy’s role in an LJ system versus Nagy’s role in another system / a better system (like @RedNachos is prepared to do) then I’m all ears and we can debate sensibly.

But if you want to carry on your current approach, then fine.  I’m furloughed, I’m here all day,

I’m hardly surprised.  🤷🏻‍♂️

What do you want to know. I am happy to educate.

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1 minute ago, Lez said:

I think he was overrated and made to look better by having good players around him. I think he was a solid defensive midfielder, but s more mobile player in that spot could of taken us to the next level.

1 in 5 Hollywood balls came off. Often caught in possession.

He was ok, I think a really good league 1 player.

Not good enough for Championship then? In your opinion?  Had we kept him in that “solid defensive midfielder role” do you think that would’ve benefitted Nagy?

What was your view of him in 17/18 season?

200+ Championship appearances across 4 managers (5 inc Pembo) by the way.

 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Not good enough for Championship then? In your opinion?  Had we kept him in that “solid defensive midfielder role” do you think that would’ve benefitted Nagy?

What was your view of him in 17/18 season?

200+ Championship appearances across 4 managers (5 inc Pembo) by the 

He was ok. Slowed us down too much. Took too long on the ball.

A defensive midfielder would benefit nagy and Walsh when he comes in.....pack isnt good enough anymore so no.

1718 solid enough decent but made to look better by the players around him IMO. Always limited but that was his best season.

 

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1 minute ago, Lez said:

What do you want to know. I am happy to educate.

I’m still trying to work out why you introduced Bristol City’s possession stats into the argument about Nagy’s ability when it’s clear there is zero correlation between the two.  I tried to get some discussion from you about the other “half” of the game, ie non-possession as your initial debate was purely about City in possession.

You've failed to discuss any of that.

You asked “what do you want to know”.

i still want to know what you think about Nagy when the opposition have the ball?

I’m waiting to be educated.  In fact, I’m just waiting for you to answer.  I’m not sure there will be much / any education though 🤷🏻‍♂️

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17 minutes ago, Lez said:

I think he was overrated and made to look better by having good players around him. I think he was a solid defensive midfielder, but s more mobile player in that spot could of taken us to the next level.

1 in 5 Hollywood balls came off. Often caught in possession.

He was ok, I think a really good league 1 player.

Pep Guardiola was wrong then, fair enough.

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m still trying to work out why you introduced Bristol City’s possession stats into the argument about Nagy’s ability when it’s clear there is zero correlation between the two.  I tried to get some discussion from you about the other “half” of the game, ie non-possession as your initial debate was purely about City in possession.

You've failed to discuss any of that.

You asked “what do you want to know”.

i still want to know what you think about Nagy when the opposition have the ball?

I’m waiting to be educated.  In fact, I’m just waiting for you to answer.  I’m not sure there will be much / any education though 🤷🏻‍♂️

You said you cant play possession football if you dont have the ball....I stated with evidence over the last 5 games we have had over 50% possession. That's the end of that point.

I dont have an issue with Nagy off the ball.....I mean he is too lightweight and weak in the tackle.....but that should be countered by Smith. I doubt Sheffield Wednesday moan about Barry Bannans physicality....he has the support of 2 other midfielders though.

This idea he is constantly out of position is bollocks as well, made up by people looking to have a moan....if anything I would like him to be more expansive especially with runs going forward.

Most of this would be solved with a 3 man cente midfield but then we sont have the effective wide players. Rock hard Place.

 

 

1 minute ago, Packman said:

Pep Guardiola was wrong then, fair enough.

No he was just being polite I recon.

Edited by Lez
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For me, Nagy is way above all of our squad in a technical sense (maybe Massengo up there as well) and you can see he's been well coached before coming here. His body shape when he receives the ball is usually perfect which enables him to get a pass off quicker than say Smith. His passing is usually crisp and spot on and, with the right players around him, I've no doubt he could dictate and control the tempo of our game. I'm not saying build the team around him, just that if he is playing then play to his strengths with complementing players around him or just don't play him.

Some have said that he lacks defensive strengths which is true, but there are other "water carriers" who should cover that - horses for courses. Of late, I've not seen any evidence of a team correctly set up in that sense which doesn't help players like Nagy.

I like him a lot, but is he able to do himself justice here ? I don't think so and I don't think think he wants to be here or in the championship (just a personal opinion) and it wouldn't surprise me if he were to go back to Italy. Which is a waste and a shame.

 

 

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Just now, bcfc01 said:

For me, Nagy is way above all of our squad in a technical sense (maybe Massengo up there as well) and you can see he's been well coached before coming here. His body shape when he receives the ball is usually perfect which enables him to get a pass off quicker than say Smith. His passing is usually crisp and spot on and, with the right players around him, I've no doubt he could dictate and control the tempo of our game. I'm not saying build the team around him, just that if he is playing then play to his strengths with complementing players around him or just don't play him.

Some have said that he lacks defensive strengths which is true, but there are other "water carriers" who should cover that - horses for courses. Of late, I've not seen any evidence of a team correctly set up in that sense which doesn't help players like Nagy.

I like him a lot, but is he able to do himself justice here ? I don't think so and I don't think think he wants to be here or in the championship (just a personal opinion) and it wouldn't surprise me if he were to go back to Italy. Which is a waste and a shame.

 

 

He is streets ahead in terms of vision and looking for runs unfortunately the players dont tend to make them.

You're right - needs the players around him and I'm hoping Walsh will make a big difference as technically like Nagy very strong.

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2 hours ago, Harry said:

Not true sir. I don’t expect Nagy to score, play killer balls, win headers and make sliding tackles. 
You completely simplify my thoughts. 
Of course, there are different types of midfielders, Smith was different to Pack, Pack different to Brownhill, Brownhill different time Nagy, Nagy different time Walsh etc. I don’t pigeon-hole all midfielders as having to produce goals, assists, headers & tackles. 
 

What I see in Nagy, is a bloke with energy and desire, but a lack of passing ability, awareness and positioning. I don’t see what position he is supposed to fulfil. As you say, he’s not the Brownhill-type (ie cleverly linking up with the attacks, creating good movement wide), he isn’t a Smith (ie a fireman, sensing danger and closing gaps) and he isn’t a Pack (ie the predominant ball receiver, dictating tempo). 
He can run a lot, he closes down all over, which is sometimes great but mostly leaves gaps where he’s sacrificed his shape to chase the ball. He can pass a bit, but only effectively as a 10-15 yard passer, he doesn’t have any switch-up ability. So he is neither an effective passer, nor a defensive lynchpin. I’d rather him be replaced. 

Nagy suffers in much the same way as   Palmer in that the players around them need to be aware .

It is frustrating for me as a supporter to see passes seemingly going astray simply because the player for whom it was intended didn’t move or anticipate  them.

On a number of occasions I’ve seen Nagy play a forward pass , advance to receive the return ball only to then have to drop back because it wasn’t played.

This takes a bit of time , also not helped by the constant change of formation.

There is definitely a good player in there let’s hope the new coach finds him. 

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33 minutes ago, Lez said:

You said you cant play possession football if you dont have the ball....I stated with evidence over the last 5 games we have had over 50% possession. That's the end of that point.

Is it?

My quote:

You can’t play the lovely passing football you think Nagy would fit into if you don’t get the ball in the first place.

50% possession - but where on the pitch?  My Wyscout stats on possession differ to yours too but that’s not important.  We also lost 3 of the 4 games Nagy played a part in of the 5 you quoted.  And despite your wonderful silo’d use of a a singular possession stat, we hardly played beautiful passing football did we?  So again, I question your understanding of the game. The best example is 65% of the ball v Millwall....yet lost 1-2....pretty football between CBs, FBs and GK, but we couldn’t get it into midfield.  That’s not really a Nagy criticism, but if I could be bothered I could make a case that those hard runs and beautiful angles he makes to receive a pass we’re everyone else’s fault that night.

I dont have an issue with Nagy off the ball.....I mean he is too lightweight and weak in the tackle.....but that should be countered by Smith. I doubt Sheffield Wednesday moan about Barry Bannans physicality....he has the support of 2 other midfielders though.

and look where they are in the league.  For much of the season he played in a central two, but I suspect the only time you’ve watched Bannan in any detail was in the two games against us.  Enlighten me on his other performances.

This idea he is constantly out of position is bollocks as well, made up by people looking to have a moan....if anything I would like him to be more expansive especially with runs going forward.

“Made up”

“Bollocks”

Explain why you think it’s so?

again you’re inability to think anything about “strength of possession” when we have it or when we don’t have it, shows up your lack of understanding of the finer details of the game.  You e jumped straight back into in-possession and expansive runs.  I wouldn’t want to play alongside a Nagy that played like that.

We would all love expansive, free flowing football, fluid movement, etc.  How did we achieve that in parts of 17/18?  Where would you have fitted Nagy into that team during the Autumn / early winter of that season?  Intrigued, and the pros and cons of that change too, if you wouldn’t mind

Most of this would be solved with a 3 man cente midfield but then we sont have the effective wide players. Rock hard Place.

 

 

No he was just being polite I recon.

As I’ve said before I don’t think he’s a bad player at all, but he’s not a silver bullet either.

 

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2 hours ago, Lez said:

The issue here for you is that he isnt Marlon Pack and you've never got over him leaving. Dont be bitter.

Ha ha. 
I actually had no issues at the time with Pack being moved on. So there’s no bitterness. You can probably check his leaving thread on here and I agreed that the time was right and the price was good. 
So, no bitterness or sentimentality from me. 
 

I only comment on Pack when comparing him to what we’ve replaced him with (no different to how many people still say “we haven’t replaced Hartley” or “we haven’t had a good right back since x”. That doesn’t mean I think all those people say they wanna suck Hartley off. 

I had no problem with Pack leaving, but would’ve liked a replacement of a similar or better stature. In Nagy, I’ve not seen any evidence as yet that this is the case. 
He may well prove me wrong. It could indeed be a ‘settling’ issue, an ‘injury’ issue, a ‘management’ issue, a ‘system’ issue or ‘other players around him not on his wavelength’ issue. (There seem to be a number of caveats waved around for him).
Could well be any of those things. I’ve seen no evidence yet though, that he’s a top end champ player. 
I hope he comes back next season, fresh as a daisy, happy and injury free and proves me wrong. 
But I can’t see how. 

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4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. 
I actually had no issues at the time with Pack being moved on. So there’s no bitterness. You can probably check his leaving thread on here and I agreed that the time was right and the price was good. 
So, no bitterness or sentimentality from me. 
 

I only comment on Pack when comparing him to what we’ve replaced him with (no different to how many people still say “we haven’t replaced Hartley” or “we haven’t had a good right back since x”. That doesn’t mean I think all those people say they wanna suck Hartley off. 

I had no problem with Pack leaving, but would’ve liked a replacement of a similar or better stature. In Nagy, I’ve not seen any evidence as yet that this is the case. 
He may well prove me wrong. It could indeed be a ‘settling’ issue, an ‘injury’ issue, a ‘management’ issue, a ‘system’ issue or ‘other players around him not on his wavelength’ issue. (There seem to be a number of caveats waved around for him).
Could well be any of those things. I’ve seen no evidence yet though, that he’s a top end champ player. 
I hope he comes back next season, fresh as a daisy, happy and injury free and proves me wrong. 
But I can’t see how. 

I suppose I'm at the other end of the spectrum re Nagy in that I really think he'd be a top player in the right team. We just haven't seen the best of him (understatement) so I can understand why he gets some negative views.

I'm hoping the new coach/manager/whatever will get the best out of him and a few others and set up the team to play to their strengths. In that respect, maybe LJ leaving will give a few players a bit of a lift.

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