Steven Gerrard

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

If Mick McCarthy, a manager you correctly state has won the Championship title twice, kept an Ipswich team in the Championship for years on a budget that even the Blue Few Manager would be moaning about, qualified for a World Cup and reached a Euro's play off with a very limited Ireland team, did apply for our job it would be interesting to know why he was unable to make the apparent "final four" shortlist behind Ryan Lowe and Lee Bowyer.

I've explained what I think in more detail in another post but basically I think the simple issue is we have invested a load of money in young players to develop who suit a particular style of football and Mick McCarthy plays in a very different way. McCarthy sets up quite tactically rigid, direct teams based around tactical discipline and physical strength. There is nothing wrong with that, and it could be good to watch, but we don't really have the players to play that way. Our major issue this season has been a manager playing a system that isn't getting the best out of our players and the key for me is finding a manager who will get the best out of the players we have.

With our squad, that isn't McCarthy. Good manager who deserves another crack in the Championship but I think we'd be the wrong club for him and he'd be the wrong manager for us. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

35 minutes ago, Harry said:

I’ve got 3 words for you sir. 
 

Wages, wages, wages. 
 

Hughton’s Brighton team were in the top 4 in terms of wage bills in the champ. 
They were paying twice the amount we were. 
Hence he was able to attract the players you highlighted. 
 

Brighton were very very much in the ‘speculate to accumulate’ philosophy. Which is one which SL doesn’t like to operate. 

What's our wage bill now vs then- or vs Brighton then?

Brighton pushed FFP right to the limit but our club/Bristol City Holdings wage bill was around 100% of turnover last season! 

Think we can go for it somewhat this season and then have to start cutting back if we gamble and lose, at least this was my modelling pre Covid.

Remember too we don't know what the future might hold, with respect to wage caps.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Yes, agreed. You need to make sure the rookie manager plays the kids. 
we had a rookie manager who talked a lot about playing kids.... yet never did unless absolutely forced to and couldn’t get shot of them quickly enough even after they’d performed well (Max O, Taylor Moore). 
Playing kids is as much about the strategy of the club from the top... not signing loads of average, like-for-like players and making sure academy players are given a go (not just talking about it). 
As you rightly say, Chelsea had no choice in their strategy and look how positively it worked out! 

Don't think they're doing anything spectacular tbh. Doing fine but a narrow lead in 3rd is about par.

[Redrascal2]

1 hour ago, Lez said:

And where are Ipswich now?

They told me under him the football was absolutely dire and home attendance was falling noticeably. Also they would rather watch a team playing exciting football  in a lower league than a McCarthy team in the Championship. 

[Lez]

5 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

They told me under him the football was absolutely dire and home attendance was falling noticeably. Also they would rather watch a team playing exciting football  in a lower league than a McCarthy team in the Championship. 

They arent playing exciting football....

[BRISTOL86]

6 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

They told me under him the football was absolutely dire and home attendance was falling noticeably. Also they would rather watch a team playing exciting football  in a lower league than a McCarthy team in the Championship. 

What they failed to omit was that he had them punching considerably, and consistently, above their weight. A case of careful what you wish for, as now they're still shit but in a worse league  

[M.D]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Not true at all.

Our wage budget was £17.9m in the season they went up.  Theirs was £40.0m, plus they had £9.0m in promotion “costs”.

Their turnover was £29m vs ours of £14.3 

Hughton isn’t necessarily a “cheaper” option than Gerrard, but we are all subjectively speculating so much about all of the candidates from

• he’ll want too high wages
• he’ll want £30m for transfers
• he’ll play x system
• etc

It’s a forum so nobody is doing anything wrong, but it is interesting to see certain statements as fact that aren’t fact.

I ment in comparison to where we are now in 2020.

 

You have drawn a comparison to both clubs from three years ago, I would state where we are now is comparable as a club to when Hughton took over at Brighton so your statistics are missleading

[Riaz]

1 hour ago, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

I think if the interest is real, then Gerrard himself probably has a very tough personal decision to make.

I actually believe that him staying at Rangers and winning the title this season would be a bigger achievement than taking the reins here and leading us to promotion. But that is taking into account both where Rangers were when he took over, and also what a hugely historical season it is going to be north of the border. It's easy for many of us down here to look at the upcoming SPFL season as another pointless exercise, that will probably lead to another Celtic title. But with the prospect of a first 10-in-a-row on the table it is a monumental season. Generation defining for whichever side of the Glasgow divide wins out.

His sides of the last two seasons have fallen away, but they've made real progress and a man of his self belief must believe he'll get it right and mount a sustainable challenge this year. If he succeeds he'll be worshipped as a King at Ibrox for the rest of his life, whatever he chooses to do next.

Conversely, despite how massive a season it is for Rangers, I think coming to City and getting us to the EPL would gain him more plaudits and more worldwide attention, and make him look a more attractive option if a bigger job became available. We'd also then be a club that would be able to attract players far out with those he could bring to Rangers. I'm sure that challenge also appeals to him.

Overall, I believe he'll feel that his current job isn't done and that he can shift the balance of power in Scotland. But if we press hard enough, and sell our potential to him strongly enough, he must surely have a temptation to test himself here.

Sorry but winning the very average scottish league with Rangers who win it 50% of the time is not a massive achievement. Getting us out of this division would be a much better achievement.

[JoeAman08]

36 minutes ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I'd be surprised if Knockaert was paid more in 2016 when he 'initially' signed, than what we're now paying Kalas (inflation aside). If Hughton came in, I really don't think he'd need to start splashing the wages around massively on new players. Perhaps if he did do that for one or two experienced heads coming in (especially in central mid, like for new Paul Hartley) it will be seen as a wise investment by the board. 

Knockeart aside, think people assume he’d want to bring in 6-7 players. This is a good squad. I believe a Hughton would solidify this squad as top 6. He will rightly want a couple he trusts. Say a Glenn Murray and Dale Stephens. Think they’d be useful additions to the squad. 
 

Then you maybe need to replace Eliasson. Fam’s replacement is Murray. Then we still have the same holes. A CDM and a RB. Point is I don’t think anyone coming in looks at the squad and thinks rebuild. LJ got sacked for not having this squad top 6. It is a top half side who over two seasons is about an 8-10th place championship side. 

[BigTone]

59 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

We waited long enough on Nketiah pissing about & plenty of other targets slipped through the net. Lets hope Ashton isn't making the same mistake this time around. If Gerrard isn't certain, move on before we miss out on the rest.

I'm sure he has irons in other fires.

[Kingswoodactor]

4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Knockeart aside, think people assume he’d want to bring in 6-7 players. This is a good squad. I believe a Hughton would solidify this squad as top 6. He will rightly want a couple he trusts. Say a Glenn Murray and Dale Stephens. Think they’d be useful additions to the squad. 
 

Then you maybe need to replace Eliasson. Fam’s replacement is Murray. Then we still have the same holes. A CDM and a RB. Point is I don’t think anyone coming in looks at the squad and thinks rebuild. LJ got sacked for not having this squad top 6. It is a top half side who over two seasons is about an 8-10th place championship side. 

I think Hughton would possible want to build his team around Eliasson. Perhaps think of him as his 'Knockeart'?

[JoeAman08]

1 minute ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I think Hughton would possible want to build his team around Eliasson. Perhaps think of him as his 'Knockeart'?

Agree it is just whether we can come to terms with him as he only has a year left. Think he needs to become more of a goal threat as well

[ChubStixx]

6 minutes ago, BigTone said:

I'm sure he has irons in other fires.

I'm sure he'll leave no stone ,rock, or pebble unturned.

[LondonBristolian]

16 minutes ago, M.D said:

I ment in comparison to where we are now in 2020.

 

You have drawn a comparison to both clubs from three years ago, I would state where we are now is comparable as a club to when Hughton took over at Brighton so your statistics are missleading

Problem is we don't publish accounts until a few months after a season ends.

The 2018-2019 accounts say £27, 543, 691* was spent on salaries, which is about £3 million up on 2017-2018.

I imagine we might be pushing £30 million now but certainly nowhere near £40 million. 

*This is total for the entire club, not just players and coaching staff. 

[Silvio Dante]

3 minutes ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I think Hughton would possible want to build his team around Eliasson. Perhaps think of him as his 'Knockeart'?

Unless I’m wrong (I’m not), that’s how we ended up with Eliasson. LJ was sat in bed, ignoring Mrs Johnson’s advances and pissing around on Wyscout to find a player with similar attributes to AK. He landed on Eliasson.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, M.D said:

I ment in comparison to where we are now in 2020.

 

You have drawn a comparison to both clubs from three years ago, I would state where we are now is comparable as a club to when Hughton took over at Brighton so your statistics are missleading

Ah, ok.  Got you.  Even so, our wage budget last year was £30m, about 12th/13th, Brighton’s at the time was 6th, the highest of the non-parachute clubs.  But I get where you’re coming from.

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I've explained what I think in more detail in another post but basically I think the simple issue is we have invested a load of money in young players to develop who suit a particular style of football and Mick McCarthy plays in a very different way. McCarthy sets up quite tactically rigid, direct teams based around tactical discipline and physical strength. There is nothing wrong with that, and it could be good to watch, but we don't really have the players to play that way. Our major issue this season has been a manager playing a system that isn't getting the best out of our players and the key for me is finding a manager who will get the best out of the players we have.

With our squad, that isn't McCarthy. Good manager who deserves another crack in the Championship but I think we'd be the wrong club for him and he'd be the wrong manager for us. 

What do you mean by rigid?

Playing one system or players with little freedom to express themselves?

i’d accuse LJ of the worst of both worlds....too many systems, but rigid in each one.

[Harry]

53 minutes ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I'd be surprised if Knockaert was paid more in 2016 when he 'initially' signed, than what we're now paying Kalas (inflation aside). If Hughton came in, I really don't think he'd need to start splashing the wages around massively on new players. Perhaps if he did do that for one or two experienced heads coming in (especially in central mid, like for new Paul Hartley) it will be seen as a wise investment by the board. 

You mentioned inflation but then proceed to ignore it. 
You’d be correct in saying that what we pay now would be similar to what BHA paid in 15/16, which then increased again in their promotion year of 16/17. 
So yes, we’d be paying around those sums now, but everyone else’s wages have also gone up, so it’s all relative. 
BHA had a top 4 budget when they went up. As did Newcastle. We’re still (I think) 11th or 12th in terms of budget. 
 

As said before, I’m not criticising Hughton, I’ll happily take him. But his success at this level has been with a top end budget, which he won’t have here. So it’s nowhere near a certainty that he’s a ‘proven runner’ on this track, because he’ll be on a different course. 

[pongo88]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I’ve got 3 words for you sir. 
 

Wages, wages, wages. 
 

 

That’s one word, repeated. (Sorry but then manager saga is getting a bit boring) 

[lenred]

9 minutes ago, Kingswoodactor said:

I think Hughton would possible want to build his team around Eliasson. Perhaps think of him as his 'Knockeart'?

Knockeart is quite feisty T and puts in the dirty work as well. Not sure I’ve seen that from Eliasson yet. Doesn’t mean he doesn’t have it in him but doesn’t seem to have the same engine atm. 

[M.D]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Ah, ok.  Got you.  Even so, our wage budget last year was £30m, about 12th/13th, Brighton’s at the time was 6th, the highest of the non-parachute clubs.  But I get where you’re coming from.

 

Yes I didnt make myself that clear, my point was he doesnt neccessarily break the bank to get clubs up..

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, M.D said:

Yes I didnt make myself that clear, my point was he doesnt neccessarily break the bank to get clubs up..

I don’t think it’s a case of him breaking the bank. Just that he’s had bigger budgets than he’ll have here. 
Hughton has achieved success at this level. But it’s a relative success because he’s had the budget of a team a) expected to go up (Newcastle) and b) pushing the boat out and expected to challenge (BHA). 
When finances have been levelled, he’s not had success. So his CV certainly shows 2 promotions from this league, but it definitely doesn’t show that he can take a mid-table budget to success. 

[LondonBristolian]

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ah, ok.  Got you.  Even so, our wage budget last year was £30m, about 12th/13th, Brighton’s at the time was 6th, the highest of the non-parachute clubs.  But I get where you’re coming from.

What do you mean by rigid?

Playing one system or players with little freedom to express themselves?

i’d accuse LJ of the worst of both worlds....too many systems, but rigid in each one.

By rigid, I mean players with little freedom to express themselves and playing a system where players play in a very precise and fixed shape and in very structured units.

In recent City terms, Gary Johnson's promotion side are the most successful example of what I mean by a rigid team. The defenders did little more than keep the ball way from goal, we had two full backs who pretty much passed the ball off to the midfield ASAP, two midfielders, one to shield and one to distribute the ball to wingers and then two wingers who got forward and got the ball in the box for a target man. There was a bit of a concession with Trundle or Noble wandering about behind the striker but it was a primarily  very fixed formation.

In contrast, the best City example I can think of of a fluid formation was Cotterill's promotion team, where Flint scored 15 goals and both of the other centre backs would go off and mazy dribbles knowing others would fill in. Both strikers dropped back or drifted off to create space and as such it was impossible for the opposition to work out where the players were, let alone mark them!

There's nothing wrong with either system and Gary Johnson got wonders out of a rigid system. I just look at Dasilva and Hunt (and Pereira if he stays) plus ball-playing defenders like Kalas and Moore then the likes of Nagy, Massengo , Walsh, Palmer, Wells, Paterson and the other players we have further up the pitch and really struggle to see how they'd thrive in a rigid formation.

I'd absolutely agree with you on LJ. Our style of football this season was far too rigid and we frequently ended up with players with no passing options as a result. The sad irony is that we did sometimes play fluid football under LJ - we did it right up until the infamous Wolves game in 2017-2018 and again during our winning streak in 2018-2019 but seemed to move away from it as soon as results didn't go our way.

 

[ballwinningcentrehalf]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Do you think that could be because of the demands of Europe catching up?  I don’t really follow Scottish football these days, so just wondering.

I think it would be a bit too simplistic to put one reason on it. Certainly the european games will play a part. The effort and energy needed to get through them will always become more sapping as the season goes on. To his credit, Rangers' european performances are on the whole excellent and SG deserves a lot of praise for what he's done there. 

There are a lot of reasons and even conspiracy theories suggested as to why they have dropped off the new year for the last two seasons; too cocky and confident after beating Celtic, inexperience in competing in a title race, internal problems in their Winter training camps in Dubai etc etc. I think it's everything rolled into one - probably lacking in a plan B, an over reliance on Morelos to score goals, inexperience in a title run in... 

After the game V Celtic last December I honestly thought the title race was 50/50 and didn't expect them to falter again as they did. I'd be shocked if it happened for the third year in succession, although I still think Celtic will edge it.

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Interesting stuff and you could put his decision in the context of his playing days. He was loyal to Liverpool even when pushed to the edge of temptation with Chelsea. Yes boyhood club and he was an icon, but that hasn't stopped many a footballer chasing glory elsewhere. I'd argue that loyalty is in his DNA and might make walking out of Rangers - with Europa League and the top end league challenge - a little bit jarring for him.

I agree completely. I think he will have that niggling feeling that the job isn't yet done and jumping ship now on the eve of a new season would be a self-betrayal of his loyalty.

26 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Sorry but winning the very average scottish league with Rangers who win it 50% of the time is not a massive achievement. Getting us out of this division would be a much better achievement.

As I explained in the rest of the post - context is important. Ordinarily I'd agree with you, getting City to the EPL would be a much bigger achievement. However this upcoming Scottish season is monumental for Rangers because of the history that will be made if Celtic win. It's easy to chuck out statements like 'they win it 50% of the time', but you are talking about a side that haven't won the league for 9 seasons, against an arch-rival that have been a behemoth in terms of trophies and finances in that same period. The job Steven Gerrard had on his hands going there was gargantuan. Your comment is typical of someone that probably doesn't understand the complexities of the rivalry there, especially this season.

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, Mr Hankey said:

We waited long enough on Nketiah pissing about & plenty of other targets slipped through the net. Lets hope Ashton isn't making the same mistake this time around. If Gerrard isn't certain, move on before we miss out on the rest.

Indeed. they tried to persuade Nketiah to come here when he really didn't want to and it now appears (only from what I've read and heard) that the same is happening with Gerrard. If someone needs a good level of persuasion rather than express an interest to come here, its the wrong person for the job imo.

Coppell springs to mind in that respect.

Move on (maybe they have tbf).

 

[ChippenhamRed]

Oh dear. Anyone else starting to get Dwight Gayle/Andre Gray vibes about the whole situation now?

 

[bcfc01]

2 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Oh dear. Anyone else starting to get Dwight Gayle/Andre Gray vibes about the whole situation now?

 

Or Nketiah vibes..

[BCFC Grim]

The longer it goes the more I fear. The club have got really good at keeping things quiet these days.

[Lrrr]

4 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Oh dear. Anyone else starting to get Dwight Gayle/Andre Gray vibes about the whole situation now?

 

Says to me we may have contacted a few clubs asking to interview managers whose seasons haven't finished yet and being respectful by waiting until the season is over to interview them, Cook/Neil for example.

[Bat Fastard]

When interviewed, Gerard is often quite cagey in the speed of his replies.  Ashton may have asked him if he would like to come to us and he might still be saying eerrrmmmm.....

All in a Scouse accent.

[BCFC Grim]

1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Says to me we may have contacted a few clubs asking to interview managers whose seasons haven't finished yet and being respectful by waiting until the season is over to interview them, Cook/Neil for example.

Cook has done a fantastic job at Wigan. However around the time we beat them their fans wanted him gone.