We need to get rid of x, y, z

[DC10]

Sell them all and replace them with who!!!?
 

We all got excited when we signed Kalas, been average all season. We all got excited when we signed Palmer, the lad can’t seem to get fit enough to play 90 mins. We all got excited when we signed Massengo, he’s got real potential but isn’t ready yet and still needs development. 
Now we’ll list another load of players we “need” to make us better yet realistically the chances of whoever comes in signing the perfect players without knowing the balance of the squad already is slim to none. 
This squad needs developing but all I’d say was missing is a Brownhill replacement, someone who can link the play in midfield, a Bannan or Powell type player but from what I’m hearing Liam Walsh is looking like that missing piece.
In the grand scheme of things we’re one or two different results away from the playoffs as we are. 

[NcnsBcfc]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

@Harry

My thoughts?

You are spot on, mate.

A lot of “football manager” on here, you know “I’d sell Adelakun, Baker, Watkins...”

Who do they seriously think is buying these players?

If the rumours are true Fam & Eliasson may have sorted themselves out moves away, but even if true, they will be the exceptions.

Apart from those whose loans expire or contracts end, our hands will be truly tied.

I agree @GrahamC

The players mentioned will all be on money that makes them completely unaffordable to 90% of the clubs in L1.

The EFL have yet to confirm whether FFP will exist next year, or whether clubs will be given a 1 year pass.

There are going to be loads of clubs in L1 & L2 that are really going to struggle to start the next season.

Unfortunately as a club, we are stuck in a position of not paying enough wages to eat at the top championship table; but also accumulating over the last 4 years a large number of players that will be incredibly difficult to shift.

Even before the virus, the examples of Taylor & Wright show the problem. I'm sure the club would have loved to take nominal fees for them in the Jan window. However, there was no club willing to bite.

Hence clubs have waited until they are OOC.

[BLRed]

All got to consider the wage cap coming in too. Be interesting to see how that works and how that affects current squad on higher wages and new recruits.

i wonder if it will mean to adhere to a wage cap, many clubs could only afford a couple of top players on higher wages like the American League where I think they are only allowed two ‘big’ signings’. Forgive me if I’m wrong there.

[GrahamC]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

9k a week for Adelakun!? Surely not. That's mental.

I think it was LJ who said teams usually pay half the loan players wages. Of course its different with every club.

I really do think they will change FFP rules for this season at least, like I just said to Dave.

Why? That’s what Taylor was on, why should he be any different?

There is no set sum, you get what you can.

Look at that list of players I posted earlier in this thread, we have a small army of them.

[Red Exile]

45 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

So in my opinion that’s what the recruitment process should concentrate on.

An opening question along the lines of “as a result of coronavirus the only funds that will be available to you are those you generate, so can you tell us how you would transform the squad into a top six one” would be a good start.

Agreed. 

[GrahamC]

Just now, Red Exile said:

Agreed. 

Perhaps we should do it? 

[NcnsBcfc]

1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

Why? That’s what Taylor was on, why should he be any different?

There is no set sum, you get what you can.

Look at that list of players I posted earlier in this thread, we have a small army of them.

All adding to the wage bill, and sucking the life out of future budgets; and taking up squad places for the academy.

A lot of players are going to have to lower their wage expectations over the next 2-3 years.

[Red Exile]

2 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Perhaps we should do it? 

The thing about the whole recruitment process is that it really doesn't appear to be something that should be all that complex. There is a pretty narrow group of individuals qualified to do the job...and the constraints within which they'd have to work are pretty clear. 

If Mark Ashton is doing his job well, and from what I've heard of him he's pretty good at aspects of it - notably negotiation - he presumably knew LJ was on borrowed time and started drawing up a list of potential candidates months ago.

Crack on, I say!

 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But can't we afford any of those number of free transfers available?

Or loan in quality young players from prem?

I imagine they will change FFP rules over the next season or so with what has happened.

Every player we bring in affects the budget (i.e. increases our cost base) either in terms of wages, fees (amortised over contract length), signing on fees, agent fees, other stuff, or a combination of all of them.

If anything FFP will get tighter, or in the case of a salary cap, more difficult to “buy” your way to success.

I know the financial side of football is a very dry subject, but it puts the Championship in perspective.  The Championship clubs are paying players like Premier League players without the revenues to support it.

8 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

9k a week for Adelakun!? Surely not. That's mental.

I think it was LJ who said teams usually pay half the loan players wages. Of course its different with every club.

I really do think they will change FFP rules for this season at least, like I just said to Dave.

I don’t know Adelakun, but Walsh was on £9k per week and he signed a deal in Jan 18, so 2.5 years ago.

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Taylor was brought in as a first team player.

Adelakun seemed like one for the future signing. Hoping he comes good kind of signing.

If we are giving 9k to players like that then that is worrying.

That’s what happens when you know you are getting a player for free (compensation in Adelakun’s case), you can be very attractive with wage offers.

I woukd imagine someone like Korey Smith, isn’t on much more if at all.  He signed his current deal in July 2016.  It was extended on the same terms.

bonkers....agreed.

[The Bard]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Too much common sense toNight Bill

With Terry Connor?  I think you’d be surprised at how many others think the same.

If we ignore covid, the club makes a £20m+ loss per season.  That’s the starting point.  Our wage bill will go down a bit assuming we don’t offer Williams, Smith and Maenpaa new deals, but that will be more than outweighed by lost income due to covid.

We are fortunate that we’ve built up some contingency in FFP terms, that if we wanted to really go for it, we might allow the new manager to spend most of what he generates.  But that is a budgetary decision....and could hamstring us the season after.

I honestly think the new man will only get a portion of what he generates, and be expected to have a more lean wage budget too.

That would suit a McCarthy type.

Our wage bill has spiralled out of control.  The rumours about Watkins on £15k and Adelukan on £9k indicate that we have made the same mistakes we did with James/Stewart/Hunt. 

There are positives though.  A number of younger players on decent wack who have yet to prove themselves are the types we should be playing not loaning to League 1.  The first half of next season should be a sifting out process. Hopefully whilst doing this the manager can get us in a good position for the 2nd half of the season...

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Our wage bill has spiralled out of control.  The rumours about Watkins on £15k and Adelukan on £9k indicate that we have made the same mistakes we did with James/Stewart/Hunt. 

There are positives though.  A number of younger players on decent wack who have yet to prove themselves are the types we should be playing not loaning to League 1.  The first half of next season should be a sifting out process. Hopefully whilst doing this the manager can get us in a good position for the 2nd half of the season...

It’s gone up 60% from 16/17’s accounts to 18/19s!!!  That will be even more when this year’s accounts are published!

 

[The Bard]

Look at what Arteta has done at Arsenal.  He's given them all a go, including  the youngsters and has started freezing out those he knows he doesn't want.  David Luiz is having a superb game tonight.  He just chose to give him an extra year due to his experience...

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I know players might get a bit more being a free, but 9k a week on Adelakun seems way too much.

Apparently other clubs were interested, so it is believable but blimey that's a lot.

It seems to me he is a player that could go far. Huge in size for a winger, pace and skill and can hit a ball.

So the potential is there but sounds like he is lazy from the little i have heard about him.

If people are right about us not being able to bring much in, then I hope prem teams are giving away their players to get minutes elsewhere. 

As then we might get some from Chelsea like Chalobah, Ampadu etc. Or Guehi would do, looked absolutely solid today.

Agree, hope!!!

[irishreds]

16 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Taylor was brought in as a first team player.

Adelakun seemed like one for the future signing. Hoping he comes good kind of signing.

If we are giving 9k to players like that then that is worrying.

Hopefully the new manager will stop / reduce the 'one for the future signings'.

We seemed to have created a recruitment team and processes which needs to keep people busy and justify it's role, and this has resulted in 50 plus  signings, over a relatively short period of time, which is not financially prudent (agents fees & Championship salaries) and not good for the team.

We should have 15 - 16 core players (a settled winning side), with the rest fighting for a place when individual / team form dips.

IMO the squad is good enough for a play-off spot, but the new manager needs to clear out a few and add one or two experienced players. Chris Wilder inspired 'free transfers' the likes of John Fleck, which is easier said than done. The new Manager / Coach must be given the same control Pat Lam has as Director of Rugby (Head Coach). 

Also, Jon Lansdown should review the recruitment process and get improvement actions, I'm sure he would get some cost savings too.

 

 

 

 

 

  

[The Bard]

9 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I know players might get a bit more being a free, but 9k a week on Adelakun seems way too much.

Apparently other clubs were interested, so it is believable but blimey that's a lot.

It seems to me he is a player that could go far. Huge in size for a winger, pace and skill and can hit a ball.

So the potential is there but sounds like he is lazy from the little i have heard about him.

If people are right about us not being able to bring much in, then I hope prem teams are giving away their players to get minutes elsewhere. 

As then we might get some from Chelsea like Chalobah, Ampadu etc. Or Guehi would do, looked absolutely solid today.

THe one thing I want to see from the new manager is a very clear no to any suggestion of signing overpaid Chelsea players who aren't good enough for them.  

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

so take Adelakun on a rumoured £9k a week

Not a chance

[Simon bristol]

One thing that has occured to me is that assuming afobe goes back,,, that leaves 3 main strikers,,, and wiemann is one of those who rarely plays as a striker, and fam is another who might not be here,,,, so it would appear that we need to be shopping for at least 1 if not 2 new forwards before the new season.

[Simon bristol]

Overall though theres so much being paid out to players who arent up to it, that if 10 were shipped out and replaced with 3 good players the squad wouldnt be any weaker.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, GrahamC said:

@Harry

My thoughts?

You are spot on, mate.

A lot of “football manager” on here, you know “I’d sell Adelakun, Baker, Watkins...”

Who do they seriously think is buying these players?

If the rumours are true Fam & Eliasson may have sorted themselves out moves away, but even if true, they will be the exceptions.

Apart from those whose loans expire or contracts end, our hands will be truly tied.

Would even have been hard to shift these two last summer, in normal times- wasn't sure about keeping the former due to him being a higher earner and injuries, and Watkins due to it not working here...thought we'd have to be creative, even then- now....a tricky task that much harder!

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Maenpaa, Williams and Korey possibly go for nothing. As well as Wright and Taylor left the club.

Benkovic, Pereira, Afobe all leave. 

Doesn't that free up wages to possibly bring in free transfers and loans?

And then there's the rumours of Diedhiou and Fenerbace. Eliasson interest too.

The players we really don't want we can try and sell for a cut price or loan out for the season freeing up wages.

I reckon we will be bringing in quite a few in the next window.

 

Well you say this but that also doesn't factor in that our profit in 2018/19, came solely through transfers- would've been a £26m loss otherwise!

We made a brilliant- yes brilliant - Profit on disposal that season, of £38m or thereabouts.

FFP will of course be eased, but those savings will help but bringing in quite a few....dunno about that? Though if we'd budgeted for the amortisation and wages when it comes to signing Pereira and Afobe permanently then maybe there's a bit of scope.

[City Ben]

I think we've had a fairly obvious strategy (as noted by others above) of buying lots of players with potential, hoping that the improve whilst with us and that they can then be sold on for a profit. A large part of our transfer approach has been player trading, rather than just to build the first team. 

This was fine in the pre-Covid world - hey, it made us a lot of money - but I do worry that the are is going to fall out of the transfer market and as a result we'll be left with a bloated squad of players that we can't shift.

[Major Isewater]

11 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Maenpaa, Williams and Korey possibly go for nothing. As well as Wright and Taylor left the club.

Benkovic, Pereira, Afobe all leave. 

Doesn't that free up wages to possibly bring in free transfers and loans?

And then there's the rumours of Diedhiou and Fenerbace. Eliasson interest too.

The players we really don't want we can try and sell for a cut price or loan out for the season freeing up wages.

I reckon we will be bringing in quite a few in the next window.

 

I agree with you Jon , transfer fees are going to be less important than the ‘ weight ‘ of wages that a club will need to sustain.

Even if by some miracle the Covid-19 just disappears and things return to ‘ normal ‘ the coffers are empty for most clubs . 
 

I am not unhappy that this horrible pandemic has made clubs finally realise that they cannot pay out just in wages more than they earn . That is just madness.

As for transfers why pay for something when you can get it free ? 
Out of contract players who are any good will have suitors and the others need to look around for a new profession. 
 

The agents will suffer as well. 
 

I actually think we are quite well placed with decent prospects coming through and can see why Ashton is rumoured to be looking at an active coach rather than an old school manager. 
 

I think we need to tweak the squad . 

[BigTone]

14 hours ago, Harry said:

As a damp squib of a season draws near to a close, on a damp and dreary English summers day, many posters thoughts are turning to next season and the soon to be upon us transfer window. 
 

I’ve seen a lot of comments from posters saying “we need to move on (insert any name from Nagy, Massengo, Smith, Paterson, Williams, Maenpaa, Weimann, Eliasson, Diedhiou). 

I just thought I’d ponder on what we all think the upcoming transfer window will be like in the Covid-reality. 
Many clubs are currently without income. All clubs have no idea how much income they will bring in for 2020/21. 
Many players are out of contract across the country (nay, across the world). 
 

I just find myself thinking that this transfer window will be pretty much non-existent in terms of any significant outlay of cash, and will likely be dominated by free transfers, with many clubs tightening their purse strings on the fact they’ve currently no income, together with the potential (being discussed) implementation of a salary cap, those free agents may no longer be able to demand whatever salary they want. 
 

I believe we only have 3 players out of contract - Smith, Williams & Maenpaaa (I stand to be corrected on that). 

Given our proliferation of ‘youngsters’ I honestly don’t think we’ll offer any of these 3 an extension. We have players on the books already (O’Leary, Moore, Walsh) who can replace those 3 in the current squad (and not be any weaker). 
 

Those with 1 year left who, in any normal window, we might attempt to sell this summer to maximise value, now may not be party to significant offers. The likes of Diedhiou & Eliasson have certainly been rumoured to be potential outgoings, but I wonder if there are potential suitors now willing to offer significant cash for these 2? I’m not sure many teams will be desperate to spend £6m or so on these players, with unknown finances for the coming year, when perhaps they could pick them up for nothing in 10 months. 
 

So, whilst it’s all well and good to say x,y & z need to be moved on, perhaps this coming window will make this a very difficult task. 
 

What’s your thoughts folks? 

Tend to agree with you.

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, City Ben said:

I think we've had a fairly obvious strategy (as noted by others above) of buying lots of players with potential, hoping that the improve whilst with us and that they can then be sold on for a profit. A large part of our transfer approach has been player trading, rather than just to build the first team. 

This was fine in the pre-Covid world - hey, it made us a lot of money - but I do worry that the are is going to fall out of the transfer market and as a result we'll be left with a bloated squad of players that we can't shift.

Posted similar a week or so ago.  In covid times you don’t buy Mo Eisa, him fail to do anything at your club, and then sell him for a profit the following season.  That is the danger.

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

I agree with you Jon , transfer fees are going to be less important than the ‘ weight ‘ of wages that a club will need to sustain.

Even if by some miracle the Covid-19 just disappears and things return to ‘ normal ‘ the coffers are empty for most clubs . 
 

I am not unhappy that this horrible pandemic has made clubs finally realise that they cannot pay out just in wages more than they earn . That is just madness.

As for transfers why pay for something when you can get it free ? 
Out of contract players who are any good will have suitors and the others need to look around for a new profession. 
 

The agents will suffer as well. 
 

I actually think we are quite well placed with decent prospects coming through and can see why Ashton is rumoured to be looking at an active coach rather than an old school manager. 
 

I think we need to tweak the squad . 

I don’t think less important is the right term.  Just less would suffice!!

Our strategy relies on generating significant revenue from transfers.  As Mr Pop said, the only reason we turned in a £12m profit was because we generated £38m transfer profit (it’s a bit more complicated than net spend).  Without being able to sell our players for large sums our strategy is a bit knackered!

Luckily (actually prudence from SL) we haven’t run the club to the FFP limits.

Wages aren’t our only cost either.  I get a bit frustrated when I see even respected football sites like Price of Football and Swiss Ramble focussing on wages : income (we are 101%), because there is amortisation of player contracts too taking up £10m+ of our budget.

1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

It shouldn't be too hard to loan out our young players to league one or two clubs.

I'm thinking we need another centre back so hopefully we get Benkovic back on loan.

Midfield is an interesting one. I think we need one there at least. Korey is currently seen as our best midfielder and he may be off. Morrell and Walsh hopefully good enough.

Up front if Fam is sold then we will have Wells, Semenyo, Watkins and Weimann.

3 of those 4 played most of their career on the wing. 

I'm sure we will need 3 or 4 in. Being greedy I'd want a new right wing back.

It won’t be hard to loan them, but clubs lower down the tiers might now expect them to come for free, with an argument that they are helping them develop.  So we might not cover hardly any wages by loaning out, and in the grand scheme of things it will be small potatoes against our £30m+ wage bill.

As it currently stands with no transfers made in the current financial year (20/21), our forecast is probably a £25-30m loss. It might be worse if it stays behind closed doors or 5k Max attendances.

We can’t treat this transfer window like football manager.

Even free transfers cost money...signing on fees, agent fees, increase the wage bill.

[spudski]

As a Club that buys, develops and sells, covid will have a knock on effect.

It's predicted as much as 20% less on predicted sales value.

It's now a buyer's market.

I can't see us doing much in the next transfer window. 

Trying to offload the obvious and keep the obvious loans to my mind.

Correct me if wrong, but haven't they suspended the assessment of FFP for a season, and will assess two seasons together from the end of next season?

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I imagine some will be willing to pay 30-50% of their wages depending on the player.

some will yes, but the types of players we are looking to loan out aren’t on £15-20k per week, and therefore it’s gonna be a small revenue stream.  If salary cap comes into Lg1 (£2.5m) and Lg2 (£1.5m), even taking your 30%, very few teams are gonna take a Walsh off your hands for a season for best part of £3k per week (circa 30% of £9k).

J Smith looked amazing in league two. I bet a number of clubs would want him next season in league one.

I’m sure they will, but how much will City recoup of what are likely to be tiny wages compared to our first team squad.  It’s not gonna matter how good they are it’s gonna be how cheap they are.  If you listen to MacAnthony at Peterborough, he doesn’t really think he should pay anything for loans, because they are doing you a favour!!  Some more owners will be reaching similar conclusions.

I think FFP will be changed for the next season anyway. Would be mad for them to keep it the same with what has happened.

Have you seen the proposals from UEFA?  They aren’t about relaxing FFP just making the next reporting period a 4 year period rather than 3 year.  UEFA’s FFP limits are more stringent than the EFL and PL.  And then you have the proposed EFL salary cap proposal.  In Championship it is £18m.  Well, we are miles over that.

Any changes will not be about relaxing spending, it’s about restricting it to save clubs from going bust.

Madness - is thinking it’s gonna allow clubs to spend more.  I saw a unicorn earlier today  at the Avon Gorge, walked in with Alan Curbishley!
SL and MA have already told us to prepare for austerity.  

If so then Lansdown can back the new manager and if we keep with buying young quality players that should improve then we will have loads of them to sell on and make profits in future windows.

see above. 

We already have quite a number that I believe could go onto bigger things. Plenty of future value in this squad

I’m sure we have a talented group.  What is “future value” without transfer fees or much smaller fees?  Lloyd Kelly doesn’t go for £15m this summer like he did last summer.  Nor have we got a player of value that we can afford to leave and replace for a £13m differential!!

 

[City oz]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Like. How do i get more likes 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yeah admittedly I've never really understood the FFP that well, especially now!
google search is quite useful!  

or read some of the thread “championship ffp”.  Mr Pops is the resident expert on all things related to ground sales.  @Coppelloactually works in the Finance Team at a Premier League club.

But I guess we could get by with the squad we have now anyway. Would be a bit concerned if we didn't add at least one or two with the loan players that are leaving and players possibly off on a free.

That will be the starting point.  I said in one of the manager threads that “really going for it” or “backing a new man” will be allowing them to spend all of the funds they generate.  As it currently stands we have raised £0 from transfer fees in the current financial year.  Wright and Taylor’s wages won’t even have been in this year’s budget in reality (if you ignore Taylor’s short term extension with Oxford).

Extending any of Smith, Maenpaa and Williams eats into the new managers budget.

It will be interesting to see what other clubs do. Teams coming down maybe have to be careful even with parachute payments? Won't be going for it like we have seen from other relegated clubs. And how are Villa with FFP too.
if their ground sale and everything is ratified as ok, then they will be fine....

Or maybe Villa can sell Grealish and McGinn for big money. Would that make them okay.
....plus they will give themselves a hefty cushion by selling Grealish and McMinn.  Mings signed for £20m on a 3 year deal on £25k pw.  I don’t think he’d be worth much more than they paid for him in current climate but that would still be an FFP profit.

Bournemouth may be able to sell a few for big money maybe. Those kind of sales with parachute money as well, couldn't there be a bit of money floating about in the champ because of that.

They will need to start adjusting to a 80-90% drop in income.  Nor will they be attractive in the Champ.  I predict tough times for them.

 

33 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Or will most clubs not even spend money they receive for any players I wonder because of what's happened.
I’m sure some money will be spent, because a £10m player last season might be available for £3m this summer.

Like what will Birmingham do with Bellingham money for example. 22.75 million!
consolidate their losses and stay within FFP!

Will there still be players going for big money to prem clubs? Surely the prem clubs will still have plenty to spend with the TV deal.

some, but their bargaining power over Championship clubs (in particular) is going to increase.  Imagine Bournemouth this summer going after Kelly.  We sold at top dollar last summer.  They might have gone £4-5m this summer.  We might’ve said “on yer bike”...at which point Bournemouth sat “okay, we’ll go somewhere else”.  Similar with Webster, they turn his head with double / treble your wages and the fee becomes less relevant.  Do you keep your saleable asset who’s unhappy?

it’s gonna be intriguing to see who adapts and who doesn’t.

 

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, City oz said:

Like. How do i get more likes 

You subscribe to OTIB for the huge sum of £5 a year then you can like til your fingers bleed.