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Bat Fastard
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Many on here seem to think we are looking for a manager - although the club seem to be looking for a new head coach.  Is the brief simply to win promotion at all costs? Or is it to develop young players into saleable assets? Or is it to win promotion by building a team of young saleable assets?  The answer to this will inform out choice. Will an experienced, go getting, promotion driven type put up with having his best players sold under him at the end of most transfer windows, giving little scope to recruit replacements?  Maybe LJ was not so bad after all, given what he had to endure.

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2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

 giving little scope to recruit replacements

I would challenge this statement. Only at the very top of the food chain do clubs not lose their best players - it happens to every other club so that is a normal thing to happen. Liverpool lost Suarez. Manure lost Ronaldo.

As to your question the goal is to win promotion within the financial constraints

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3 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I would challenge this statement. Only at the very top of the food chain do clubs not lose their best players - it happens to every other club so that is a normal thing to happen. Liverpool lost Suarez. Manure lost Ronaldo.

As to your question the goal is to win promotion within the financial constraints

Webster and Brownhill were key players and left at the end of transfer windows.  It would have been difficult for any manager to lose two such influential players with little chance to respond.  Did Lee want to sell or did Ashton tell him what to think?

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Just now, Bat Fastard said:

Webster and Brownhill were key players and left at the end of transfer windows.  It would have been difficult for any manager to lose two such influential players with little chance to respond.  Did Lee want to sell or did Ashton tell him what to think?

Leeds and Brentford in particular sell quite a lot.

Leaving so late in the window doesn't help but Leeds:

Peacock-Farrell, Jansson, Saiz, Clarke, Roofe. Sure at least one of these were sold late on. 

Brentford finalised Maupay sale quite late IIRC. Sold varied others too- it's nature of life in this division for a lot of sides.

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2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Webster and Brownhill were key players and left at the end of transfer windows.  It would have been difficult for any manager to lose two such influential players with little chance to respond.  Did Lee want to sell or did Ashton tell him what to think?

Webster was always going to be sold - for the money we got it was great business and no club would turn that down. With the addition of Benkovic on loan and Williams you cant say we didnt try to cover. Re Brownhill - i believe he had a clause saying he could leave for 4 M in the summer, and plenty of clubs would have taken him. Also we wanted a striker, so the conversation was likely "If you want Nahki you have to sell Brownhill"

All of this is normal for any club as already mentioned. It will be the same for the next manager

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1 minute ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Webster was always going to be sold - for the money we got it was great business and no club would turn that down. With the addition of Benkovic on loan and Williams you cant say we didnt try to cover. Re Brownhill - i believe he had a clause saying he could leave for 4 M in the summer, and plenty of clubs would have taken him. Also we wanted a striker, so the conversation was likely "If you want Nahki you have to sell Brownhill"

All of this is normal for any club as already mentioned. It will be the same for the next manager

Henriksen track record suggested a reasonable short term replacement too, albeit not quite as good. Never got the best of him, like so many under LJ.

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9 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Webster was always going to be sold - for the money we got it was great business and no club would turn that down. With the addition of Benkovic on loan and Williams you cant say we didnt try to cover. Re Brownhill - i believe he had a clause saying he could leave for 4 M in the summer, and plenty of clubs would have taken him. Also we wanted a striker, so the conversation was likely "If you want Nahki you have to sell Brownhill"

All of this is normal for any club as already mentioned. It will be the same for the next manager

Benkovic was added 4/5 months later and Williams only came in because Kalas got injured, would argue neither were directly to replace Webster. The saving grace for us was that Taylor Moore was ready to step up.

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22 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Many on here seem to think we are looking for a manager - although the club seem to be looking for a new head coach.  Is the brief simply to win promotion at all costs? Or is it to develop young players into saleable assets? Or is it to win promotion by building a team of young saleable assets?  The answer to this will inform out choice. Will an experienced, go getting, promotion driven type put up with having his best players sold under him at the end of most transfer windows, giving little scope to recruit replacements?  Maybe LJ was not so bad after all, given what he had to endure.

Given what LJ had to “endure”? Pretty sure all this would have been made clear to LJ when he was “poached”. No doubt we was happy to go along with it for the tasty salary from an owner he was on good terms with & who backed him when other owners would have sacked. Some endurance record that.

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Just now, RidgeRed said:

Given what LJ had to “endure”? Pretty sure all this would have been made clear to LJ when he was “poached”. No doubt we was happy to go along with it for the tasty salary from an owner he was on good terms with & who backed him when other owners would have sacked. Some endurance record that.

The point is that he had progressed each year up until this one.  The loss of those two players seemed to have an impact on his results and the balance of his team. The loss of his key striker and record signing to injury - as well as the loss of his star attacking left back, made this a difficult season in which to make the same ongoing progress.  Maybe he was simply unlucky with the injuries coming on top of the sales.  All players sold or injured were very key to his team.

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As for the post think the job description would look something like this, pretty obvious though

Essential:

  • Continue to advance the team's recent success of moving up the league table and aim to finish in the top 6
  • Buy in to the club's strategy in the transfer market of buying players to increase their value and sell on

Preferred

  • Use academy players (plural) in the match day squad and assess those who could move onto 1st team roles
  • Experience of guiding teams to promotion
  • Willing to operate as a Head Coach as opposed to a Manager
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17 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

The point is that he had progressed each year up until this one.  The loss of those two players seemed to have an impact on his results and the balance of his team. The loss of his key striker and record signing to injury - as well as the loss of his star attacking left back, made this a difficult season in which to make the same ongoing progress.  Maybe he was simply unlucky with the injuries coming on top of the sales.  All players sold or injured were very key to his team.

Lee come on mate. move on. Reminiscing on OTIB isnt healthy

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20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

The point is that he had progressed each year up until this one.  The loss of those two players seemed to have an impact on his results and the balance of his team. The loss of his key striker and record signing to injury - as well as the loss of his star attacking left back, made this a difficult season in which to make the same ongoing progress.  Maybe he was simply unlucky with the injuries coming on top of the sales.  All players sold or injured were very key to his team.

We'd progressed in league position but regressed in performance and entertainment. 

Selling key players to the Prem is the norm sadly, we'd also invested a huge amount in fees and wages to replace them.

The job is to gradually improve in those circumstances and once you take away the league progression it's hard to defend.

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7 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Lee come on mate. move on. Reminiscing on OTIB isnt healthy

I know what you mean but in my 50 odd years of watching City I have seen many managers come and go and know that change does not always bring the required improvement.  Heaven knows where we will end up.

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4 minutes ago, Nibor said:

We'd progressed in league position but regressed in performance and entertainment. 

Selling key players to the Prem is the norm sadly, we'd also invested a huge amount in fees and wages to replace them.

The job is to gradually improve in those circumstances and once you take away the league progression it's hard to defend.

You are right - but I feel that Lee had a reasonable dose of bad luck, and this was not helpful.  The home form in particular has been poor and those are the matches watched by most OTIB commentators.  Lets hope that the new chap gets more luck to go with the hoped for experience and ability.

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3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You are right - but I feel that Lee had a reasonable dose of bad luck, and this was not helpful.  The home form in particular has been poor and those are the matches watched by most OTIB commentators.  Lets hope that the new chap gets more luck to go with the hoped for experience and ability.

The Afobe injury was unlucky - 100% agree. However LJ had long enough, and we have been dire to watch. Time for a change for sure

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1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

You are right - but I feel that Lee had a reasonable dose of bad luck, and this was not helpful.  The home form in particular has been poor and those are the matches watched by most OTIB commentators.  Lets hope that the new chap gets more luck to go with the hoped for experience and ability.

I agree the home form was a factor. For me at least the turning point was when the post match interviews got delusional, that undermined confidence that had already been damaged by random formations and selections.

I think we have a good squad capable of more and am hopeful that if we get the right manager the playoffs are realistic.

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27 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Benkovic was added 4/5 months later and Williams only came in because Kalas got injured, would argue neither were directly to replace Webster. The saving grace for us was that Taylor Moore was ready to step up.

To add:-

We went into the week of the start of the season with CBs as follows:

Webster / Kalas / Baker / Wright / Moore

We sold Webster because we ultimately got an offer we couldn’t refuse.  Webster left on 3rd August.  We had 5 days to replace him.  The Webster interest started before that date, so we actually had time to bring someone in (easier said than done).  We didn’t.

We then went into the season with:

Kalas / Baker / Wright / Moore (full-backs Hunt and Dasilva)

In a back 4, Moore got the nod alongside Kalas

The fact that Dasilva got injured meant Rowe coming in and a swap to a back 3...was that necessary?

Only Kalas remained for the next game v Birmingham (a)

Pereira / Wright / Kalas / Baker / Rowe

Moore having started previously, not even in the 18!

Just those two games typify LJ’s reign.

Ashley Williams signed on 23rd Aug (but needed to get fit)

It was only when Kalas got injured v Hull in league match 5 (24th Aug) that the back 5 became a back 4 again.

Williams named on bench, v Boro (h) for the following week’s match, but then had a fortnight international break.

After the break we went back to back 5 with CBs as follows:

Moore / Williams / Baker (Wright on bench)

We we’re actually looking hard to beat, 10 league games unbeaten, since Leeds!

Here is a list of all ins and outs that summer in date order:

80EBA717-D928-401F-B3C1-3C3202301899.thumb.jpeg.f4027fe9b898e08bcc746cfc82a7214c.jpeg

Even with Brownhill going we brought in 3 players (Wells, Henriksen and Benkovic), showing that deals don’t just happen and then we kick into action, but it’s all running concurrently.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

The point is that he had progressed each year up until this one.  The loss of those two players seemed to have an impact on his results and the balance of his team. The loss of his key striker and record signing to injury - as well as the loss of his star attacking left back, made this a difficult season in which to make the same ongoing progress.  Maybe he was simply unlucky with the injuries coming on top of the sales.  All players sold or injured were very key to his team.

Mr F, I feel we're covering old ground here, but yes LJ will believe that all of those mitigating factors contrived to condemn him. 

But every time I consider his plight I remind myself of the crap football our team was dishing out, the bizarre team selections and the knee-jerk chopping and changing of both personnel and formation.

Even if this season's failure isn't his fault (many would say it was), it is time to move on with new energy.

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7 minutes ago, mozo said:

Mr F, I feel we're covering old ground here, but yes LJ will believe that all of those mitigating factors contrived to condemn him. 

But every time I consider his plight I remind myself of the crap football our team was dishing out, the bizarre team selections and the knee-jerk chopping and changing of both personnel and formation.

Even if this season's failure isn't his fault (many would say it was), it is time to move on with new energy.

Lets hope we don't get an inspirational coach like S O'D or a ruthless winner like Triffic Pulis!

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Leeds and Brentford in particular sell quite a lot.

Leaving so late in the window doesn't help but Leeds:

Peacock-Farrell, Jansson, Saiz, Clarke, Roofe. Sure at least one of these were sold late on. 

Brentford finalised Maupay sale quite late IIRC. Sold varied others too- it's nature of life in this division for a lot of sides.

This is where Brentford seem to be better organised than us, IMO.

Losing Maupay made no difference to them; and their performance this season demonstrates this. When they sell one of their major assets, they have a replacement ready to go.

Losing Webster and Brownhill impacted us seriously, in both cases.

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48 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You are right - but I feel that Lee had a reasonable dose of bad luck, and this was not helpful.  The home form in particular has been poor and those are the matches watched by most OTIB commentators.  Lets hope that the new chap gets more luck to go with the hoped for experience and ability.

You make your own luck in this world and LJ was given the time and the tools to fulfill his remit but ultimately disappeared up his own backside. 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Brentford finalised Maupay sale quite late IIRC

They did but they signed Mbuemo the same day, probably requirement of the deal and knew they could move Watkins centrally. Imagine if we told Brighton 'sorry deal only happening if we get another CB' with that much money on the line at that time in the window.

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15 minutes ago, The Gasbuster said:

This is where Brentford seem to be better organised than us, IMO.

Losing Maupay made no difference to them; and their performance this season demonstrates this. When they sell one of their major assets, they have a replacement ready to go.

Losing Webster and Brownhill impacted us seriously, in both cases.

Was internal for them IIRC. Mbeumbo, Watkins and Benrahma already at the club at time of Maupay sale- think Watkins the one who replaced Maupay in that position.

They've got a fantastic model for sure. Think Maupay missed a number of pre-season games so they probably had time to experiment with current shape.

I see what you mean, our replacements quite late or hastily arranged, but also a good argument to suggest LJ didn't get the best out of quite a few.

Brentford started quite hit and miss, slowly though, but when it clicked... 

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8 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

They did but they signed Mbuemo the same day, probably requirement of the deal and knew they could move Watkins centrally. Imagine if we told Brighton 'sorry deal only happening if we get another CB' with that much money on the line at that time in the window.

My mistake then, thought Mbeumo already at the club.

Didn't both Maupay and Webster go for similar fees though?

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I too would like to understand the difference between the 'Head Coach' role at Ashton Gate, compared to, say, the 'Manager' role at Rangers (with the talks of Gerrard in mind). Particularly the influence that the Head Coach has over the purchase and sale of players. 

I'm not trying to go over old ground with another LJ debate, but if the Head Coach role at Bristol City is significantly different to the Manager role at, say, Brentford or Leeds (examples given above) then Lee would (MAYBE) not have been able to purchase his first choice of players, but would have had to work with whoever was provided (or taken away) by Mark Ashton and his team. I can't see this being the case for Bailsa at Leeds or Frank at Brentford (although I accept that I might be wrong)

If (and I mean a big IF), this turns out to have some glimmer of truth in it, then that would explain why so-called 'big name' managers don't seem to want to come to us, leaving us trying to choose from lesser experienced managers from the lower leagues who would put up with working within the rules in order to cut their teeth at a higher level. Lee Johnson was one such example.

I can't argue with the great work that Ashton is doing regards to balancing the books - here are the figures if anyone fancies a look https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/alletransfers/verein/698 

However, making a nice tidy profit in the transfer market keeps the bank balance healthy, the Administrators and FFP at bay, but it doesn't necessarily provide the manager with the players he would prefer to work with.

I think it was right that LJ left and I'm not making excuses for him; he knew what the role entailed and chose to accept it, but I'm not confident that his successor will fare much better unless he has more control over ins/outs.

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1 minute ago, Lrrr said:

Similar but the difference being they had the replacement ready, we didn't

Don't think Moore got a proper chance, can't compare fully like for like either as the setups differed. Webster in a back 3? Moore in a back 4?

Benkovic is a ballplaying, possibly ball carrying CB. LJ didn't get an optimum level out of him, not the fault of recruitment. 

Brownhill out late was a blow but Henriksen and Wells...the latter was on a hot streak, the former was a midfielder with a reasonable record, which included some goals, assists and decent technical ability as well as height.

Late in the day is of course difficult but I still believe we should've had better results and performances with the squad we had, LJ had some responsibility here. Tactically question him too.

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1 hour ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

I too would like to understand the difference between the 'Head Coach' role at Ashton Gate, compared to, say, the 'Manager' role at Rangers (with the talks of Gerrard in mind). Particularly the influence that the Head Coach has over the purchase and sale of players. 

I'm not trying to go over old ground with another LJ debate, but if the Head Coach role at Bristol City is significantly different to the Manager role at, say, Brentford or Leeds (examples given above) then Lee would (MAYBE) not have been able to purchase his first choice of players, but would have had to work with whoever was provided (or taken away) by Mark Ashton and his team. I can't see this being the case for Bailsa at Leeds or Frank at Brentford (although I accept that I might be wrong)

If (and I mean a big IF), this turns out to have some glimmer of truth in it, then that would explain why so-called 'big name' managers don't seem to want to come to us, leaving us trying to choose from lesser experienced managers from the lower leagues who would put up with working within the rules in order to cut their teeth at a higher level. Lee Johnson was one such example.

I can't argue with the great work that Ashton is doing regards to balancing the books - here are the figures if anyone fancies a look https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/alletransfers/verein/698 

However, making a nice tidy profit in the transfer market keeps the bank balance healthy, the Administrators and FFP at bay, but it doesn't necessarily provide the manager with the players he would prefer to work with.

I think it was right that LJ left and I'm not making excuses for him; he knew what the role entailed and chose to accept it, but I'm not confident that his successor will fare much better unless he has more control over ins/outs.

Leeds have a sporting director. Victor Orta, unsure how the lines of demarcation break down however. Responsibility for transfers that kinda thing. @1964w ? 

Unsure of Brentford and their structure. I do however get the impression that their plan is that if a manager leaves/is sacked the philosophy and broad plan, team remains much the same. Frank was promoted from within after all.

Quick point on Leeds.

Ayling, Cooper, Berardi, Alioski, Dallas, Phillips, Forshaw, Klich, Hernandez and Roberts. What do they all have in common?

Plus they've now left, but Peacock-Farrell, Jansson, Saiz, Clarke and Roofe. Again what in common? Unsure how many were first choice or how many first reserves.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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6 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I know what you mean but in my 50 odd years of watching City I have seen many managers come and go and know that change does not always bring the required improvement.  Heaven knows where we will end up.

wow a fan aged a hundred +, do you enjoy leap years where you get the extra day off?

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