What next for LJ?

[CodeRed]

26 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I'm not sure the CV will be that simple, maybe it is. But you could argue he was still a "Success" at each club as he improved them from when he found them. I haven't looked too deeply into his time at Oldham and Barnsley so I could be wrong. 

Barnsley were 16th - mid table - when he joined, and 12th - still mid table when he left. The stats don't lie. Bang average.

Barnsley improved when Heckingbottam took over and he got them promoted. 

[Sturny]

1 minute ago, CodeRed said:

Barnsley were 16th - mid table - when he joined, and 12th - still mid table when he left. The stats don't lie. Bang average.

Barnsley improved when Heckingbottam took over and he got them promoted. 

Bang average indeed but some teams in the champ need that 

[Phileas Fogg]

I think he might do better somewhere where he has more limited resources. He did pretty well at Oldham considering it was his first job in management and the circumstances they were in. With them you need to look a bit beyond a simplistic win % and look at the bigger picture. 

GJ was arguably at his best for us when he had to find bargains and do a bit of wheeling and dealing, maybe LJ is the same. 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, One Team said:

Whilst you are probably right I also think it’s tenable he will get a job as good if not better than City. His CV will read well (season on season progress, league cup semi, selling good players for huge money etc.) and I bet he interviews very well with all the buzzwords flowing (pathways, philosophies etc.).

I think it’s more likely you are right I also think he’s arrogant enough and perceived well enough to land a big job too. 

The higher he applies, the more his BS will be seen through.

1 hour ago, Rich said:

Should stick to coaching. His management during games has been awful, outdone by virtually every top coach he's come up against. Has stuck to staying in games for 60 odd minutes and then tries to grab something with an "inspired" substitution. Clutching at straws comes to mind and ******* clueless.

And by lesser coaches too.  He’s not awful, but he’s not as good as he thinks imho.

[TonyTonyTony]

I expect we will see him on Sky as a championship pundit, although havin said that doesn’t Gary O’Neil dislike him? Read that somewhere. All his bollocks would go down well on sky. Can also see him visiting monasteries and visiting the Karachi kabaddi team to “learn” their techniques

[soultrader]

Assistant Manager at Torquay perhaps ?

 

[Rich]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

The higher he applies, the more his BS will be seen through.

And by lesser coaches too.  He’s not awful, but he’s not as good as he thinks imho.

I think that's the problem he has Dave, he thinks.

When he does think, it's over thought and downright confusing. At the start of his tenure I thought he's doing ok and I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that I had. It looked like he was bringing more intelligent players to the club, who could take in his theories and make decisions themselves on the pitch. I think we've seen that process happen during games and then get abandoned in the heat of the moment when players can't react or, don't have time to react /think. Effectively, far too complicated for your average footballer, or even a percentage of the team.

It would appear that, as a club and squad, we're stuck halfway between intelligent players and some which just need to be given a job to execute and stick to it. We don't have the players to constantly swap systems, positions and formations. When we've been restricted through injuries/suspensions, we've had to keep to the basics and generally done well doing that. We ain't Man City, Liverpool or Chelsea and don't have their luxuries. Perhaps as a club we were/are trying to be too clever and need to get focused on doing things simply and effectively.

Our physicality has diminished during his tenure as well, being easily dispossessed/overpowered.

Well, that's a couple of my many theories partly explained. 

[Gifford]

Maybe Watford’s 3rd Manager of the season just before Christmas.

[Lrrr]

4 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Lots saying he could deliver stability and get a struggling championship club into mid table......let's not forget that whilst he did that for us he needed 60 odd million, and 60 odd signings to "achieve" it.

I don't see any bottom 8 championship clubs spending that sort of money to provide him with such a large bag of clubs.

He'd achieved stability here well before he reached '60 odd signings' and '60 odd million' though, while achieving stability his outlay was equaled by his income so its not as if he had money just handed to him out of hand. The numbers were also boosted by all the punts taken which was part of club policy, do you really think LJ was bothered by the signings of De Girolamo, Holden, Bakinson etc? They weren't impacting his 1st team selection so probably was just happy to go along with what the club wanted to do. Also Cotts left him with a senior 1st team squad of about 17 players so his first season required additions which bolstered his numbers. So I doubt he's hardly going to say to whatever club interviews him 'I need a ton of money and licence to go sign as many players as I need'. 

[BRISTOL86]

4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

He'd achieved stability here well before he reached '60 odd signings' and '60 odd million' though, while achieving stability his outlay was equaled by his income so its not as if he had money just handed to him out of hand. The numbers were also boosted by all the punts taken which was part of club policy, do you really think LJ was bothered by the signings of De Girolamo, Holden, Bakinson etc? They weren't impacting his 1st team selection so probably was just happy to go along with what the club wanted to do. Also Cotts left him with a senior 1st team squad of about 17 players so his first season required additions which bolstered his numbers. So I doubt he's hardly going to say to whatever club interviews him 'I need a ton of money and licence to go sign as many players as I need'. 

Don't let facts get in the way of the this oft-spouted nonsense though! 

Funny how no one who uses this argument as a stick to beat LJ with takes into account the value of players sold from under him as a balance to the argument. It's also a stupid comparison with almost all other managers of our club due to the crazy inflation in football over the last 5-10 years.

'Spent £60m and didn't do X Y Z....', ignoring that a good chunk of that £60m was spent replacing players who were sold for very large sums of money.

It was the right time for change but it seems there will always be an element who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever from taking us from a side looking nailed on for relegation to a side very disappointed with not challenging for promotion in the space of a couple of years.

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

but it seems there will always be an element who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever

Shock

[Midred]

5 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Don't let facts get in the way of the this oft-spouted nonsense though! 

Funny how no one who uses this argument as a stick to beat LJ with takes into account the value of players sold from under him as a balance to the argument. It's also a stupid comparison with almost all other managers of our club due to the crazy inflation in football over the last 5-10 years.

'Spent £60m and didn't do X Y Z....', ignoring that a good chunk of that £60m was spent replacing players who were sold for very large sums of money.

It was the right time for change but it seems there will always be an element who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever from taking us from a side looking nailed on for relegation to a side very disappointed with not challenging for promotion in the space of a couple of years.

If after the restart we'd gone a run like Brentford then lost in the semi final, (which is still possible for Brentford) or even got to the final again and lost what would be the reaction on here then?

[pongo88]

5 hours ago, CodeRed said:

Barnsley were 16th - mid table - when he joined, and 12th - still mid table when he left. The stats don't lie. Bang average.

Barnsley improved when Heckingbottam took over and he got them promoted. 

Exactly. Bang average until a better manager came along 

5 hours ago, Sturny said:

Bang average indeed but some teams in the champ need that 

Average is an achievement if you’re operating on a limited budget. If LJ goes to some of the lower Championship teams he’ll find he’ll have to live on scraps and deal with an owner who regards a poor run of 6 matches as a sackable offence.  A good example of average being good is Mick McCarthy at Ipswich. He kept them in the Championship with an annual budget of approx 25p. With City, LJ had a good budget and scouting system to bring in new players plus an owner who was prepared to give him time. 

[Sturny]

38 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

Exactly. Bang average until a better manager came along 

Average is an achievement if you’re operating on a limited budget. If LJ goes to some of the lower Championship teams he’ll find he’ll have to live on scraps and deal with an owner who regards a poor run of 6 matches as a sackable offence.  A good example of average being good is Mick McCarthy at Ipswich. He kept them in the Championship with an annual budget of approx 25p. With City, LJ had a good budget and scouting system to bring in new players plus an owner who was prepared to give him time. 

I see what you're saying but give him some credit, he got certain players looking good to eventually get sold very well to receive the budget which I think he deserved. It wasn't JUST City. There are clubs in the lower ends of the champ that have decent budgets and are underperforming, if he gets in and turns them into a midtable team I would call that average myself. Average doesn't have to be good or bad but it can be what some clubs need. I see Mick McCarthy at Ipswich as a success in that case. 

I agree with the extra time he was given is a big factor. Which I believe will bite him in future jobs, he may have already hit his prime under us. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Don't let facts get in the way of the this oft-spouted nonsense though! 

Funny how no one who uses this argument as a stick to beat LJ with takes into account the value of players sold from under him as a balance to the argument. It's also a stupid comparison with almost all other managers of our club due to the crazy inflation in football over the last 5-10 years.

'Spent £60m and didn't do X Y Z....', ignoring that a good chunk of that £60m was spent replacing players who were sold for very large sums of money.

It was the right time for change but it seems there will always be an element who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever from taking us from a side looking nailed on for relegation to a side very disappointed with not challenging for promotion in the space of a couple of years.

It is also "oft-spouted" that we were "nailed on" for relegation (when there were five or six struggling at the foot of the table in 2015/16, like most seasons, all no doubt looking nailed-on to go down to their supporters, we were one of those five or six, but only three would ever end up going down; some of the nailed-on five or six would turn out to be otherwise. It's a fact!) and that Lee "saved us" when something much closer to the truth is that Pemberton initiated changes between Cotts leaving and Johnson starting, and with Tomlin signed, the four league games under Pemberton yielded seven points, P4 W2 D1 L1. A small sample but miraculous compared to the previous 26 games; and play-off contender form.

Pemberton's four games - top of the table Middlesbrough, bogey side Leeds away, play-off chasing Birmingham and struggling Charlton - saw us concede one goal. Again, remarkable compared to what came before. The stats from those four games reveal that we had more shots on goal in each game than those opponents had on our goal. The results reflected performance. We were vastly improved.

The work was done (ie switching to a back four; recruiting Championship class in Tomlin) and the recovery was already underway before Johnson started; all Lee had to do was not interfere and try and be too clever (his time for this would come, the following season) too soon. Even he knew not to wade in and go: right, we're doing things my way! from day one.

 

If Lee really was our "saviour" in 15/16, how come we ended up right back where we were in Jan/Feb 16 twelve months later? We were "nailed on" again to go down the night we lost 0:5 at Preston, with six games to go - check the table back then.

 

Johnson did some good stuff and some dreadful stuff here, but it is fanciful to believe that he "saved us" in 15/16. In my opinion. 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Don't let facts get in the way of the this oft-spouted nonsense though! 

Funny how no one who uses this argument as a stick to beat LJ with takes into account the value of players sold from under him as a balance to the argument. It's also a stupid comparison with almost all other managers of our club due to the crazy inflation in football over the last 5-10 years.

'Spent £60m and didn't do X Y Z....', ignoring that a good chunk of that £60m was spent replacing players who were sold for very large sums of money.

It was the right time for change but it seems there will always be an element who refuse to give him any credit whatsoever from taking us from a side looking nailed on for relegation to a side very disappointed with not challenging for promotion in the space of a couple of years.

100%. I don't know why people can't just be objective about it, same with all managers. It's almost as if some are so emotionally invested in the desire to be 'vindicated' it warps their view on things.

[DT The Optimist]

He comes across media wise pretty well and that’s where he belongs. One of his biggest mistakes was the give me 5 transfer windows? (Was it 5 or 3) All he was doing constantly Shuffling the pack trying to get a winning side

As others has said I think we might see him on the telly more often than not. I cannot see any championship club taking a look at him, Oldham and Barnsley were ok tenures. Nothing more. Time here same, turning over countless players . 

 

[Med/MadHatter]

LJs City teams seemed to have the best results and runs when the injuries to the squad meant he couldn't tamper with the team too much, so I would think that a team with a smaller squad and little money might actually suit him more. Time will tell if he can stop himself from overthinking the opposition and play to his own ideas, I still think there is a good future coach in there, maybe he has learned a few lessons from his days here.

[Red Exile]

19 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

100%. I don't know why people can't just be objective about it, same with all managers. It's almost as if some are so emotionally invested in the desire to be 'vindicated' it warps their view on things.

A stance that appeared to go right to the top of the club!

Time to move on to a manager who can be more objectively assessed.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

A stance that appeared to go right to the top of the club!

Time to move on to a manager who can be more objectively assessed.

Good point, I think there is some truth in that. 

[BrizzleRed]

It’ll be great when we stop talking about Lee f*****g Johnson.  He’s left and the same arguments sre still going on!

His fans will cherry pick all the good bits of his time here to make their point, while his detractors do the opposite and pick all the worst bits.

He was clearly somewhere in the middle, average, unspectacular, just as he was as a player.  He joined when we were on a shit run and left when we were on another shit run and during the four and a half years in between, he managed to improve our league position by about six places ..... about as average as you can possibly get!!!

Come on folks, he’s gone, it really is time to put the arguments to bed and look forward rather than back.  The sooner this new appointment is made the better and hopefully the fanbase can actually unite behind the next HC.

[BRISTOL86]

45 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Johnson did some good stuff and some dreadful stuff here, but it is fanciful to believe that he "saved us" in 15/16. 

 

I never said he did?

I’m talking about us looking like relegation fodder well into his tenure and him taking us from that position to where we are now, disappointed and frustrated to not be in the top six. 

[Bristol Oil Services]

22 minutes ago, DT The Optimist said:

He comes across media wise pretty well and that’s where he belongs. One of his biggest mistakes was the give me 5 transfer windows? (Was it 5 or 3) All he was doing constantly Shuffling the pack trying to get a winning side

As others has said I think we might see him on the telly more often than not. I cannot see any championship club taking a look at him, Oldham and Barnsley were ok tenures. Nothing more. Time here same, turning over countless players . 

 

It was three windows, to "get to where we want to be." To move on the players he felt were too attached to Cotts and therefore untrustworthy and bring in his own players, that would "die in a ditch" for and with him.

And the third of those three windows was summer 2017 and our best football under him followed that third window. So he was quite right!

After the fourth window, of January '18, we were dogshite! Abysmal.

But he was bang on about three windows - we were third in the league, one point behind second place Derby as we went into that fourth window. And in the semi-final of the League cup.

Most head coaches/managers, if they are going to get it right, get it right in the first season or two nowadays (I think. Is this factually correct?) and LJ had it pretty good in that period between the third and the fourth window (but with a core of his predecessors players: Fielding, Flint, Bryan, Reid, Pack, Baker etc) with both results and performances to get excited about.

But it all fizzled out, and he couldn't maintain or regain the "magic," almost as if he was not as central to it all as perhaps he and we imagined.

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

13 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I never said he did?

I’m talking about us looking like relegation fodder well into his tenure and him taking us from that position to where we are now, disappointed and frustrated to not be in the top six. 

Sorry B86, went off on one a bit there .....  

[BRISTOL86]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Sorry B86, went off on one a bit there .....  

Haha no worries! It was a good post!

[Superjack]

19 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Savage!

I didn't intend it to be, Fordy.

But knowing that we are of a similar opinion having read your posts, I guess if you think that, then it must have been.

Just saying it as I see it.

If it is 'savage', then I would suggest that it is an indictment of the person in question.

[John Galley]

He might as well apply for the vacancy at Ashton Gate, the way things are going they would probably interview him.

[Northern Red]

2 minutes ago, John Galley said:

He might as well apply for the vacancy at Ashton Gate, the way things are going they would probably interview him.

Be worth it just for the reaction on here and elsewhere (as long as they didn't then reappoint him, obvs..)

[Sturny]

16 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

It’ll be great when we stop talking about Lee f*****g Johnson.  He’s left and the same arguments sre still going on!

His fans will cherry pick all the good bits of his time here to make their point, while his detractors do the opposite and pick all the worst bits.

He was clearly somewhere in the middle, average, unspectacular, just as he was as a player.  He joined when we were on a shit run and left when we were on another shit run and during the four and a half years in between, he managed to improve our league position by about six places ..... about as average as you can possibly get!!!

Come on folks, he’s gone, it really is time to put the arguments to bed and look forward rather than back.  The sooner this new appointment is made the better and hopefully the fanbase can actually unite behind the next HC.

So you hopped onto a LJ thread to tell us to stop talking about LJ? 
 

Just don’t read the threads if you’re not interested

[Phileas Fogg]

11 minutes ago, John Galley said:

He might as well apply for the vacancy at Ashton Gate, the way things are going they would probably interview him.

 

8 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Be worth it just for the reaction on here and elsewhere (as long as they didn't then reappoint him, obvs..)