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Other Manager Options (Merged)


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Just now, Davefevs said:

 

Do you think from a commercial pov fan buy-in is important? I definitely do. I know things are a bit different at the moment, but appointing someone like Holden would have a huge knock on to ticket sales, Robins TV packages and subsequently takings at concessions. Having a higher profile manager also would make our conferencing and corp box facilities more attractive. 

Given the board's tendency for marquee signings that fans wanted (Tomlin, Dasilva, Kalas, Palmer, Wells), I think this will be important for them re: managers. 

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Just now, mozo said:

I worry that you're right and there will be an inquest if out of 80-100 applicants "from around the world" and our supposed profile in the game, we end up with an internal rookie. 

I think Holden seems like a great guy, which I do think is important, but this is huge job for him to cut his teeth, and there's every chance it'll be too much for him.

For me, Holden's caretaker spell raised a few concerns and didn't assure me that he's ready.

He’d need support undoubtedly.  I’m certainly not trying to sell him as the best candidate, and I’m speculating that he could become the best candidate who:

  • either interviewed well
  • truly still wanted the job after interview (that would be damming if so, but I think / guess that someone like Hughton might’ve been more impressed from the outside looking in, than when he got in the interview)
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2 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

Probably in a minority of 0.000000001%, but I wouldn't be disappointed at all.   

I think (rightly or wrongly) he's tarnished with the failures of the previous regime. The fans wouldn't be patient with him and a couple of losses on the spin and fans would want him out. Fans are generally on a downer after last season and an appointment like this wouldn't help. 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

He’d need support undoubtedly.  I’m certainly not trying to sell him as the best candidate, and I’m speculating that he could become the best candidate who:

  • either interviewed well
  • truly still wanted the job after interview (that would be damming if so, but I think / guess that someone like Hughton might’ve been more impressed from the outside looking in, than when he got in the interview)

Completely agree.  I don’t want Holden and doubt many fans do but there are definitely plausible scenarios that add weight to his chances.  i have gone from thinking he has no chance of getting it to a position where I wouldn’t be surprised at all. 

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3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think (rightly or wrongly) he's tarnished with the failures of the previous regime. The fans wouldn't be patient with him and a couple of losses on the spin and fans would want him out. Fans are generally on a downer after last season and an appointment like this wouldn't help. 

Agree with this as well. If we are bottom 6 by November then ‘Holden Out’ is the shout from majority of fans. If similar under Hughton or Cook then the view will be it will take time to sort out mess left by LJ, whether that is fair or not 

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1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think (rightly or wrongly) he's tarnished with the failures of the previous regime. The fans wouldn't be patient with him and a couple of losses on the spin and fans would want him out. Fans are generally on a downer after last season and an appointment like this wouldn't help. 

I think rightly.

Fresh face and new ideas desperately needed.

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Just now, Nogbad the Bad said:

I think rightly.

Fresh face and new ideas desperately needed.

I agree, totally fresh regime is now needed. The 'or wrongly' caveat was based on the unknown that we don't know his personal contribution to those failings. Either way - I don't want Holden or anyone associated with the old regime, time for a total change. 

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43 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

In the absence of Arne Slot I think Paul Cook is probably the best choice for those whose priority is to see good football.  

I think Dean Holden would also play easy on the eye football and bring through young talent. Whether we’d win much is another matter but I think we would. He could turn out to be a brave and inspired choice. Brave because most of the fan base want a ‘name’.

My favoured priority is to see attacking  football rather than a dour defensive setup that grinds out results to get into the pay-offs. As a few teams have shown, winning and playing entertaining football aren’t incompatible. 

Agree. I actually think playing good football is the way to get results now at this level.

Leeds, WBA, Brentford and Fulham all shown that.

I'd say Leeds and Brentford play amazing football and have overachieved. 

Swansea made playoffs that wasn't really expected. A team that also play good football.

Notts Forest failed from where they had been. They play defensive, very boring stuff.

Barnsley went on a remarkable run playing great football and avoided relegation.

Obviously there will always be examples of teams that don't play such pretty football doing well like Cardiff making playoffs.

But I do think the championship has changed in recent seasons. A bit like the prem has in that the likes of Mourinho are not so successful in the modern game. I think we are seeing a similar thing in the championship.

I think there were a couple of concerning things I saw from Holden, but I was otherwise quite impreseed.

I'm certainly not against him getting the job for 12 months. Especially if he plays the kids and plays good football like we saw in quite a few of those games.

I liked that system he went with. Would need to sort out the midfield and strike force though. I'd much rather Wells and Weimann. And id much rather 2 proper midfielders with someone like Pato being able to get more advanced.

 

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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think (rightly or wrongly) he's tarnished with the failures of the previous regime. The fans wouldn't be patient with him and a couple of losses on the spin and fans would want him out. Fans are generally on a downer after last season and an appointment like this wouldn't help. 

I think you are right if the performances were as turgid as under the latter couple of seasons with LJ.   I don't think that's Holden's instinctive approach though. Also, if DH continued in the same vein where we saw him getting the best out of players and using and sticking with a formation that suited the squad then most fans would cut him some slack for anything above mid-table.  More so if he started playing the likes of Walsh and Morrell in roles that highlighted their ability just as their recent loan managers did.  For me that would bring the 'feel good factor' back.

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Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

I agree, totally fresh regime is now needed. The 'or wrongly' caveat was based on the unknown that we don't know his personal contribution to those failings. Either way - I don't want Holden or anyone associated with the old regime, time for a total change. 

He either shares culpability or he didn't have the gumption and character to challenge LJ.

Either way he's definitely not the man for the job.

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Do you think from a commercial pov fan buy-in is important? I definitely do.

Yes, I do, but there are some ifs and buts...

I know things are a bit different at the moment, but appointing someone like Holden would have a huge knock on to ticket sales, Robins TV packages and subsequently takings at concessions.

Maybe the club have gambled (budgeted is too generous a term) that they’ve already sold their SCs, fans ain’t be back in for a while, that they can risk it? I don’t know.  The point I was making was more to fans input on why we might have selected one manager over another for budget reasons.  There are a lot of fans that want us to spend £10m players, but want a refund of their SC money too.  Most fans have little to no understanding as to how a football budget might be constructed.  Some have no appreciation of FFP or that we made a £25m loss in 18/19.  If the club think manager X wants an unrealistic budget, then don’t appoint him, nor need to seek our approval either.  That’s what I’m debating.  Of course there is cause and effect of those decisions.

Having a higher profile manager also would make our conferencing and corp box facilities more attractive.

Yep, and I suspect most of those are sold already for next season aren’t they?

Given the board's tendency for marquee signings that fans wanted (Tomlin, Dasilva, Kalas, Palmer, Wells), I think this will be important for them re: managers.

yep, it’s always about “the players”.  Managers don’t get fans out of their seats, action on the pitch does.

As I’ve said before, Holden shouldn’t be our no1 target, but underwhelming doesn’t necessarily mean no success.

Having interviewed whoever we have, who knows whether our strategy has changed.  It could be 20/21 is about survival financially as building for 21/22.  If it is, and that means going with a budget option, playing the youngsters, etc, then that’s the bit that needs communicating.  Equally if it’s Hughton, you’d expect the communication to be “we’ve got the best man, we are going for it” blah, blah, blah.

I totally agree it was right to sack LJ, but I do think it’s possibly the worst financial period to be appointing a new manager, especially if you can’t back them in the way you’d have expected to 6  on this ago.

 

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Agree. I actually think playing good football is the way to get results now at this level.

Leeds, WBA, Brentford and Fulham all shown that.

I'd say Leeds and Brentford play amazing football and have overachieved. 

Swansea made playoffs that wasn't really expected. A team that also play good football.

Notts Forest failed from where they had been. They play defensive, very boring stuff.

Barnsley went on a remarkable run playing great football and avoided relegation.

Obviously there will always be examples of teams that don't play such pretty football doing well like Cardiff making playoffs.

But I do think the championship has changed in recent seasons. A bit like the prem has in that the likes of Mourinho are not so successful in the modern game. I think we are seeing a similar thing in the championship.

I think there were a couple of concerning things I saw from Holden, but I was otherwise quite impreseed.

I'm certainly not against him getting the job for 12 months. Especially if he plays the kids and plays good football like we saw in quite a few of those games.

I liked that system he went with. Would need to sort out the midfield and strike force though. I'd much rather Wells and Weimann. And id much rather 2 proper midfielders with someone like Pato being able to get more advanced.

 

Lots of sense there Jon.

My only reservation is that winning sometimes make performance / football style seem better than it is.  Sometimes (most of the time?) you often need the best players to play that way.

Barnsley are an interesting one.  Yes, from outside in they look exciting...agreed.

But 30 games, 11w, 7d, 12l 40pts leaves you mid table.  Of course I appreciate he inherited a squad, but he had a transfer window, and he did a good job.  I don’t knows enough to know whether open, attacking football cost them points or not though.

2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

He either shares culpability or he didn't have the gumption and character to challenge LJ.

Either way he's definitely not the man for the job.

No arguments there.  Same with LJ and the alleged transfers given to him by MA.

Maybe with Dean’s name banded about for the Bolton job, he may have twigged he needs to look out for himself.  I don’t know.  I totally get yours and others views....I’m definitely not keen on appointing from within when a manager is sacked, but I did like what I saw in those 5 games.  Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I saw some hope, after the turgid stuff from LJ.  He’s not my no1 or no2 though.

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’d need support undoubtedly.  I’m certainly not trying to sell him as the best candidate, and I’m speculating that he could become the best candidate who:

  • either interviewed well
  • truly still wanted the job after interview (that would be damming if so, but I think / guess that someone like Hughton might’ve been more impressed from the outside looking in, than when he got in the interview)

Yeah I'd imagine he interviewed very well. He's good at saying the right thing, he knows what they want to hear and he's probably the least demanding candidate. 

I think your 2nd point is the one that could ruffle a few feathers. 

We've never been such an attractive proposition in the head coach market. The message is consistently that we're looking to the Premier League in the short term. We've spent decent money on players.

To not follow that up with an ambitious appointment will annoy people and (I'm very PR minded), the club would in that case be wise to control the narrative. 

The only way that Holden should get the role, in my view, is if he has been a shining light behind the scenes, someone that has exuded an x-factor all along and just can't be overlooked. If that were the case has should have been in the job immediately. 

We're all trying to read between the lines (what else can we do?!), and you could argue that if Holden gets the role, the process has failed. 

He'd be up against it too. Of course the fans back the new manager vociferously. But fans would turn on him a lot quicker than a higher profile appointee.

If our big problem in this process is around budget, I'd hope we find out about it so that we can all be honest about where the club is heading. 

The obvious positive with Holden is continuity. No need to rip everything up and start again.

I wonder if Ashley Williams would be offered a role? Would Weimann become a midfielder? Would Massengo be frozen out? Would Holden get a better tune out of Wells?

So many questions...

 

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Lots of sense there Jon.

My only reservation is that winning sometimes make performance / football style seem better than it is.  Sometimes (most of the time?) you often need the best players to play that way.

Barnsley are an interesting one.  Yes, from outside in they look exciting...agreed.

But 30 games, 11w, 7d, 12l 40pts leaves you mid table.  Of course I appreciate he inherited a squad, but he had a transfer window, and he did a good job.  I don’t knows enough to know whether open, attacking football cost them points or not though.

No arguments there.  Same with LJ and the alleged transfers given to him by MA.

Maybe with Dean’s name banded about for the Bolton job, he may have twigged he needs to look out for himself.  I don’t know.  I totally get yours and others views....I’m definitely not keen on appointing from within when a manager is sacked, but I did like what I saw in those 5 games.  Not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I saw some hope, after the turgid stuff from LJ.  He’s not my no1 or no2 though.

They were pretty tight at the back I think in that run since lockdown.

I imagine if they had better players then Struper would manage to get them higher than he did.

12th from when he took over with that squad is some achievement.

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1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

They were pretty tight at the back I think in that run since lockdown.

I imagine if they had better players then Struper would manage to get them higher than he did.

12th from when he took over with that squad is some achievement.

Who's your number 1 at the moment Jon? Is it still Jokanović?

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51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The fact that it’s “dragged” on in many of our minds, make me feel Holden is getting closer to being announced.

I am totally guessing, but in my mind, the club had one big last push with one or more of the other candidates at the back end of the week / over the weekend and if they reached an impasse, Holden is gonna get it. 

Said the same thing 10 minutes before you posted - its getting late in the day for an external appointment with players back on Monday. Whoever is in post needs this week as preparation, which Holden is probably doing anyway.

(cue Hughton being announced today....)

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