Other Manager Options (Merged)

[Midlands Robin]

I fundamentally disagree with people who say we can afford to take our time. Yes, absolutely, we need to make sure we get the right person to take us forward and at the end of a normal season we would have had the luxury of a few weeks to make that decision. 

This, as we know, is not the end of a normal season. This is going to be a bizarre transfer window because there isn't the funds available as their normally would be for a lot of clubs. We have already seen transfer rumours surrounding some of our players such as Eliasson and Fammy, and these decisions are being made with out our new manager being involved. Everyone accepts our squad needs an overhaul and that it also needs to be trimmed. The midfield is probably our weakest area at the moment. 

Every day we delay is handing less time to fix these issues and more time to our rivals to sign the sort of players we may want ourselves. 

The transfer market faces two problems. Teams looking to reduce their wage bill will want to off load high earners and also, teams with reduced incomes will want to generate high transfer fees. 

With a reduced amount of time available to sort out the squad and the domestic market definitely in the favour of selling clubs there's a very strong chance we could pay over the odds for some players or end up looking to Europe to take our two most sellable assets in Fam and Eliasson and then trying to source better from Europe again. 

That process will have already started through our current set up and again, our potential new manager could find he's had no say in our targets. 

It may very well be that we sign the right man to be our manager then tie one hand behind his back because he doesn't get the time or a significant say in who we bring in. 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

22 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

You make some really good points PF, but apart from some brief flourishes, this club feels like a perennial underachiever to me.  

Maybe I’m just getting old and cynical, but with all this potential, you have to question why we’re still waiting after 40 years outside of top flight.

Let’s just hope this next appointment is the one that lights the blue touch paper and really launches this club ...... cue the announcement of Appleton!!!

I think perhaps in the past we were happy to be a second tier/second rate club - but I genuinely feel since promotion in 2015 the longer term aim has been to become a Prem club.

I think actually some fans say the whole 'sleepy footballing backwater' thing as a bit of a defence mechanism or excuse to explain why we haven't got there yet.

Keep the faith - I am glad we're taking our time to hopefully get it right.

[BrizzleRed]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think perhaps in the past we were happy to be a second tier/second rate club - but I genuinely feel since promotion in 2015 the longer term aim has been to become a Prem club.

I think actually some fans say the whole 'sleepy footballing backwater' thing as a bit of a defence mechanism or excuse to explain why we haven't got there yet.

Keep the faith - I am glad we're taking our time to hopefully get it right.

Yep, fingers crossed matey and hopefully our time will come, sooner rather than later, as none of us are getting any younger!!! 

[pongo88]

2 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

I largeky agree with you with most of that, but where we differ is your last paragraph.  I’ve just got a nagging doubt creeping in that SL may see it as better business to stay as a competitive side in the Championship, rather than push on to the Prem.

The benefit of that would we’d have more opportunity to keep developing players and bringing in high transfer fees, so making us more sustainable.  That makes very good business sense, but may require different talents in the head coach, than one who is set on going all out for promotion.

I’m hoping we get a clearer view on which route we’re taking, after the next appointment is announced

The income from all sources is far greater in the Premier League. Even if City gained promotion and were immediately relegated it would still be worth it due to the parachute payments, if the club is properly managed. Where it goes wrong is when clubs spend a fortune to get promotion and fail, or gain promotion and get relegated with enormous debt. The way SL is managing the club means neither of these two scenarios are likely to happen. It also means there is a possibility that City stay in the Championship for some time. 

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, soultrader said:

Really?

Afobe, Benkovic and Pereira have gone.

Seems widely expected that Eliasson and Diedhou will go this summer.

Which leaves the left side of midfield with only COD (I'm not a fan).  

So seems need left midfield/winger and a striker.  Plus as many have mentioned seems our team could do with a midfield marshall type player.

Which is nearly the spine of a team.     

I'm not convinced Eliasson will go if we get the right manager in. I don't really rate COD either. But maybe you're right, as our midfield is a bit crap. 

[Davefevs]

43 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

I fundamentally disagree with people who say we can afford to take our time. Yes, absolutely, we need to make sure we get the right person to take us forward and at the end of a normal season we would have had the luxury of a few weeks to make that decision. 

This, as we know, is not the end of a normal season. This is going to be a bizarre transfer window because there isn't the funds available as their normally would be for a lot of clubs. We have already seen transfer rumours surrounding some of our players such as Eliasson and Fammy, and these decisions are being made with out our new manager being involved. Everyone accepts our squad needs an overhaul and that it also needs to be trimmed. The midfield is probably our weakest area at the moment. 

Every day we delay is handing less time to fix these issues and more time to our rivals to sign the sort of players we may want ourselves. 

The transfer market faces two problems. Teams looking to reduce their wage bill will want to off load high earners and also, teams with reduced incomes will want to generate high transfer fees. 

With a reduced amount of time available to sort out the squad and the domestic market definitely in the favour of selling clubs there's a very strong chance we could pay over the odds for some players or end up looking to Europe to take our two most sellable assets in Fam and Eliasson and then trying to source better from Europe again. 

That process will have already started through our current set up and again, our potential new manager could find he's had no say in our targets. 

It may very well be that we sign the right man to be our manager then tie one hand behind his back because he doesn't get the time or a significant say in who we bring in. 

 

Re your comments in bold in order

1. I think there’s a point where “we’ve taken too long”.  I don’t think we are there yet, but I think end if this week is probably that point!  I think they were right to get rid of LJ at the time, and although I expected a quick appointment (I was wrong), it allowed a little bit of time for players to play freely.

2. I don’t think it needs an overhaul at all.  It needs a tweak, Dean Holden proved in 5 games that with structure and method it’s perfectly competitive (W2 D2 L1).  Even the defeat was a missed penalty away from a draw if I’m clutching straws.

3. Agree re transfer market, but Everyone will have reduced incomes.  Getting rid of high earners will likely be at the cost of reducing transfer fees, I don’t think we will see big earner and big fee go together in the Champ.

4. Any manager worth his salt will have formed an early view on our squad, and if the interview process is conducted openly and honestly, he will be informed of the financial situation and market positions of individual players (subject to NDA or similar), e.g. MA might make him aware they have an offer in for Eliasson.

This can’t drag on, but Prem League only finished yesterday, Championship hasn’t finished and there is a knock on effect that we can’t do a lot about.

Of course it’s frustrating, but I think end if the week is the point we say “phew, right let’s go”, or “what are they playing at”.

[Midlands Robin]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

2. I don’t think it needs an overhaul at all.  It needs a tweak, Dean Holden proved in 5 games that with structure and method it’s perfectly competitive (W2 D2 L1).  Even the defeat was a missed penalty away from a draw if I’m clutching straws.

Overall Dave, I can't really argue with your response and perhaps, "overhaul" is too strong a word however I do feel its more than a tweak. 

If you look at those last 5 games under Holden it was 2 wins and a draw against sides that finished 24th, 17th and 15th respectively. Prior to LJ being sacked we would, and probably did look to those fixtures against Hull, Boro and Stoke and would have expected 7 points being an expected return. 

Against teams around us, Swansea and Preston it was a single point. Granted the Preston game had nothing on it but then, surely, that was the time to give the players the chance to really go for it. 

If the rumours are correct and in a few weeks time we are without Eliasson, Fammy and Korey I look at the rest of the squad and I'm struggling to see one that is better than it was 18 months ago. 

 

[BrizzleRed]

1 hour ago, pongo88 said:

The income from all sources is far greater in the Premier League. Even if City gained promotion and were immediately relegated it would still be worth it due to the parachute payments, if the club is properly managed. Where it goes wrong is when clubs spend a fortune to get promotion and fail, or gain promotion and get relegated with enormous debt. The way SL is managing the club means neither of these two scenarios are likely to happen. It also means there is a possibility that City stay in the Championship for some time. 

Absolutely spot on Pongo!

If it’s the highlighted outcome, I’m sure there will be many of us fans who see this as a massive opportunity lost, where we missed the chance to tap into some of that Premier League wealth while it’s still there, so let’s hope SL’s aiming to go for it now.

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, Midlands Robin said:

Overall Dave, I can't really argue with your response and perhaps, "overhaul" is too strong a word however I do feel its more than a tweak. 

If you look at those last 5 games under Holden it was 2 wins and a draw against sides that finished 24th, 17th and 15th respectively. Prior to LJ being sacked we would, and probably did look to those fixtures against Hull, Boro and Stoke and would have expected 7 points being an expected return. 

Against teams around us, Swansea and Preston it was a single point. Granted the Preston game had nothing on it but then, surely, that was the time to give the players the chance to really go for it. 

If the rumours are correct and in a few weeks time we are without Eliasson, Fammy and Korey I look at the rest of the squad and I'm struggling to see one that is better than it was 18 months ago. 

 

I was gonna add a caveat re Holden’s record against the opponents he had. But bearing in mind we were 4 games w/o a win post covid and 9 w/o a win overall I thought it largely irrelevant.

Post-Covid saw some dramatic changes in form from many sides too.

You’re probably right its probably more than a tweak but less than an overhaul

[Midlands Robin]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

You’re probably right its probably more than a tweak but less than an overhaul

If only there was a word for that. 

A Twehaul? 

[soultrader]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

I'm not convinced Eliasson will go if we get the right manager in. I don't really rate COD either. But maybe you're right, as our midfield is a bit crap. 

Not wishing to start an LJ bashing thread.  But I do think that one of the things LJ is guilty of is assembling an unbalanced squad. 

[Monkeh]

5 minutes ago, soultrader said:

Not wishing to start an LJ bashing thread.  But I do think that one of the things LJ is guilty of is assembling an unbalanced squad. 

all wingers no defensive minded midfielders

[soultrader]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I was gonna add a caveat re Holden’s record against the opponents he had. But bearing in mind we were 4 games w/o a win post covid and 9 w/o a win overall I thought it largely irrelevant.

Post-Covid saw some dramatic changes in form from many sides too.

You’re probably right its probably more than a tweak but less than an overhaul

Alteration ?

[Nibor]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Re your comments in bold in order

1. I think there’s a point where “we’ve taken too long”.  I don’t think we are there yet, but I think end if this week is probably that point!  I think they were right to get rid of LJ at the time, and although I expected a quick appointment (I was wrong), it allowed a little bit of time for players to play freely.

2. I don’t think it needs an overhaul at all.  It needs a tweak, Dean Holden proved in 5 games that with structure and method it’s perfectly competitive (W2 D2 L1).  Even the defeat was a missed penalty away from a draw if I’m clutching straws.

3. Agree re transfer market, but Everyone will have reduced incomes.  Getting rid of high earners will likely be at the cost of reducing transfer fees, I don’t think we will see big earner and big fee go together in the Champ.

4. Any manager worth his salt will have formed an early view on our squad, and if the interview process is conducted openly and honestly, he will be informed of the financial situation and market positions of individual players (subject to NDA or similar), e.g. MA might make him aware they have an offer in for Eliasson.

This can’t drag on, but Prem League only finished yesterday, Championship hasn’t finished and there is a knock on effect that we can’t do a lot about.

Of course it’s frustrating, but I think end if the week is the point we say “phew, right let’s go”, or “what are they playing at”.

I think we are definitely at the point where we've taken too long.  There are several suitable candidates immediately available and once the managerial merry go round starts in earnest - this week I expect - we will have more competition for those.  We have had more than three weeks to do this since firing LJ, and we should have had at least three weeks of prep before that where it was looking very likely.

I also don't agree that the five games Holden was in charge for proved anything about the structure or method.  All he did was stop mucking about with idiotic changes every week and rely on the huge sigh of relief the players would have felt from that.  It says nothing either way about where we are.

What we need is a proper first team manager who has enough experience of managing a club to success at the top end of the championship to have the credibility to tell Ashton and the Lansdowns when they are wrong, to get the players confident and get the fans behind them.  We needed that person before playing squad changes started happening.

[CliftonCliff]

3 minutes ago, Nibor said:

We needed that person before playing squad changes started happening.

Certainly agree with your final point.

If decisions about who stays and who gets moved on are already being taken by somebody other than the new head coach/manager (and I am not necessarily saying that is the case), before that person has even had a chance to assess the squad, then that suggests a perpetuation of one of the things that may well have been wrong with the previous set-up, and that would not bode well for what is to come. Can one imagine Hughton, for example, taking on the role and being told "pending your arrival, we have already taken the decision to release/sell - or even buy - players X,Y and Z?" That would bear an ominous similarity to what was rumoured at the time to have been at least partly responsible for the Coppell debacle. 

[Monkeh]

8 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Certainly agree with your final point.

If decisions about who stays and who gets moved on are already being taken by somebody other than the new head coach/manager (and I am not necessarily saying that is the case), before that person has even had a chance to assess the squad, then that suggests a perpetuation of one of the things that may well have been wrong with the previous set-up, and that would not bode well for what is to come. Can one imagine Hughton, for example, taking on the role and being told "pending your arrival, we have already taken the decision to release/sell - or even buy - players X,Y and Z?" That would bear an ominous similarity to what was rumoured at the time to have been at least partly responsible for the Coppell debacle. 

I think those discussions would of already taken place while johnson was still here to be honest 

[Red Exile]

23 minutes ago, Nibor said:

What we need is a proper first team manager who has enough experience of managing a club to success at the top end of the championship to have the credibility to tell Ashton and the Lansdowns when they are wrong, to get the players confident and get the fans behind them.  We needed that person before playing squad changes started happening.

100% in agreement with this.

[BrizzleRed]

11 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

I think those discussions would of already taken place while johnson was still here to be honest 

Whether they were discussed with LJ or not, he isn’t here any more.

That would be a sure fire way to piss off a new coach right from the start, if players were sold on before he even had a chance to have any input on who’s retained.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I think we are definitely at the point where we've taken too long.  There are several suitable candidates immediately available and once the managerial merry go round starts in earnest - this week I expect - we will have more competition for those.

“Immediately available” - totally agree in terms of us not having to wait for clubs to decide their fate or us break their contract....but that doesn’t mean they were ready to commit either.  That’s the bit we don’t know.

We have had more than three weeks to do this since firing LJ, and we should have had at least three weeks of prep before that where it was looking very likely.
if you’re someone like Hughton who’s turned down approaches before, and from bigger clubs than us, he might be one who’s perfectly happy to wait for the merry go-round to come to town and take his chance there.

I also don't agree that the five games Holden was in charge for proved anything about the structure or method.

That’s fine if that is your opinion.  I saw us pass the ball up the pitch in a way if not seen from an LJ team for a good while.

All he did was stop mucking about with idiotic changes every week and rely on the huge sigh of relief the players would have felt from that.  It says nothing either way about where we are.

I guess the point I didn’t make very well was that had we kept on with LJ until the end of the season some players might’ve been at a point where they were “done with City” and at least there are some players who might be more onside as a result.

What we need is a proper first team manager who has enough experience of managing a club to success at the top end of the championship to have the credibility to tell Ashton and the Lansdowns when they are wrong, to get the players confident and get the fans behind them.  We needed that person before playing squad changes started happening.

I don’t disagree, but my own view is that there is still a small window of time left to do this, e.g. this week.

24 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Certainly agree with your final point.

If decisions about who stays and who gets moved on are already being taken by somebody other than the new head coach/manager (and I am not necessarily saying that is the case), before that person has even had a chance to assess the squad, then that suggests a perpetuation of one of the things that may well have been wrong with the previous set-up, and that would not bode well for what is to come. Can one imagine Hughton, for example, taking on the role and being told "pending your arrival, we have already taken the decision to release/sell - or even buy - players X,Y and Z?" That would bear an ominous similarity to what was rumoured at the time to have been at least partly responsible for the Coppell debacle. 

I guess the reality is club have decided not to retain Williams, Smith and Maenpaa.  I could wirk up a case to keep each of them, but I can’t imagine they would be deal-breakers on a new man coming in.

Agreeing to commence selling Eliasson and Diedhiou might be though.

And bringing new players in even more of a deal-breaker, unless you’re really lucky.

[Nibor]

Just now, Davefevs said:

I guess the reality is club have decided not to retain Williams, Smith and Maenpaa.  I could wirk up a case to keep each of them, but I can’t imagine they would be deal-breakers on a new man coming in.

Agreeing to commence selling Eliasson and Diedhiou might be though.

And bringing new players in even more of a deal-breaker, unless you’re really lucky.

I'd be mostly concerned about letting go of Smith, not reaching deals with Eliasson and Diedhiou - which we might well do with a manager who convinces them we can be promoted - and also the loanees returning to parent clubs not having met a new manager.  Benkovic, Afobe and Pereira were all players I'd have thought could make a big contribution next season managed correctly, finances allowing.  It's a shame we didn't have someone in the door to spend a couple of weeks with them.

I think it quite unlikely that any delay in appointing someone like CH came from anybody except the club.  The noise around Gerrard and now about there being many interviews have all the hallmarks of a slow motion train wreck I'm afraid.

[Monkeh]

5 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Whether they were discussed with LJ or not, he isn’t here any more.

That would be a sure fire way to piss off a new coach right from the start, if players were sold on before he even had a chance to have any input on who’s retained.

Considering the transfer window opened 6 hours ago,

No team out side the prem will have any money to spend and everyone left at the club is still under contract,

I wouldn't worry

[BrizzleRed]

4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Considering the transfer window opened 6 hours ago,

No team out side the prem will have any money to spend and everyone left at the club is still under contract,

I wouldn't worry

Fair point, but decisions will start having to be made very soon, if we need some squad changes for the new season.

We certainly need to replace Korey Smith, as we can’t dump all that responsibility onto Morrell, however promising he is.

[Monkeh]

6 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Fair point, but decisions will start having to be made very soon, if we need some squad changes for the new season.

We certainly need to replace Korey Smith, as we can’t dump all that responsibility onto Morrell, however promising he is.

why not pass it on to a full Welsh International that had rave reviews at club and on the International stage?

[Nibor]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

why not pass it on to a full Welsh International that had rave reviews at club and on the International stage?

Someone with some actual footballing nous needs to watch him and make that determination.  International football varies hugely in quality and league one is league one.

[Monkeh]

Just now, Nibor said:

Someone with some actual footballing nous needs to watch him and make that determination.  International football varies hugely in quality and league one is league one.

Then whats the point in having an academy 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I'd be mostly concerned about letting go of Smith, not reaching deals with Eliasson and Diedhiou - which we might well do with a manager who convinces them we can be promoted

re Eliasson, I made a similar point on his own thread, that you want the new manager to come in and convince him of his role here, develop his game further etc.  Potentially he could be our biggest asset going forward.

Smith - I still think he’s perfectly capable at this level.  So much will depend on the new manager’s view on him.  But he could easily be signing for a new club today.

Diedhiou - is in a similar position to Eliasson, he’ll have suitors.

You wouldn’t want MA cutting deals for those if you thought they were key to your plans.  That’s the big unknown but...and time is either running out (my view) or has ran out already (your view).  We are both concerned either way

- and also the loanees returning to parent clubs not having met a new manager.  Benkovic, Afobe and Pereira were all players I'd have thought could make a big contribution next season managed correctly, finances allowing.  It's a shame we didn't have someone in the door to spend a couple of weeks with them.

I really though that was what SL implied on TS.  It suggests to me the person(s) we wanted either weren’t interested (Gerrard) or weren’t ready to commit (e.g. Hughton).  It’s quite conceivable we’ve royally stuffed up, but I’ll wait til Friday Before reaching that conclusion.

Back to the loanees....unless MA has reached some tentative agreement with Leicester, Benfica and Stoke already, then you make a good point.  Those 2 weeks / 2 or 3 games might have earned the new man some serious sway in where the players might’ve wanted to go.

I suppose it’s possible Holden was told to play a Benkovic to have any chance to secure him next season

I think it quite unlikely that any delay in appointing someone like CH came from anybody except the club.  The noise around Gerrard and now about there being many interviews have all the hallmarks of a slow motion train wreck I'm afraid.

Good points and lots of ifs and buts in my response.

[Nibor]

Just now, Monkeh said:

Then whats the point in having an academy 

To produce players who might be good enough for the first team. 

That doesn't mean every player it produces is good enough, sometimes they will be sold.

It would be mental to just decide that a player who had a good season on loan in league one is going to be enough for a promotion campaign in the championship without an actual first team manager having some time watching them.

What's confusing here?

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, Nibor said:

To produce players who might be good enough for the first team. 

That doesn't mean every player it produces is good enough, sometimes they will be sold.

It would be mental to just decide that a player who had a good season on loan in league one is going to be enough for a promotion campaign in the championship without an actual first team manager having some time watching them.

What's confusing here?

Good enough to get into the Welsh squad and would of been playing in euro 2020 if not for the virus,

 

[Nibor]

5 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Good enough to get into the Welsh squad and would of been playing in euro 2020 if not for the virus,

And?  His main competition for the last spot in midfield was other league one players.  It doesn't say anything either way about how he would cope in the Championship.  If it were possible to plan a squad to get promoted on paper we'd just let some random person with a copy of the Football Manager database do it.

[mozo]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

2. I don’t think it needs an overhaul at all.  It needs a tweak, Dean Holden proved in 5 games that with structure and method it’s perfectly competitive (W2 D2 L1).  Even the defeat was a missed penalty away from a draw if I’m clutching straws.

Dave I'm surprised you see it as a tweak.

How many of Holden's squad of 20 v Preston will be regulars next year? Less than half, I'd imagine. Then there's reintegration of loanees and you're left with a dubious and imbalanced squad if you ask me.