Do we need a Director of Football?

[Red Skin]

I've made this point in a couple of threads, but thought it might warrant separate consideration (or maybe not?)

Seems to me that our club identity or ethos was really something that LJ was defining.   For any manager/ head coach to define this just seems plain wrong.  Managers come and go.

The club identity should drive recruitment/sale of players.  Youth development.  And also determine which coach/manager is best suited to deliver it.

Without this role at the club, the danger is that when it's left to the manager/coach to define we lurch from one identity to another as each manager brings in their own philosophy.  And we need to overhaul the squad and re-educate coaches across all levels of the club to align to the new managers vision.

If it hasn't been LJ defining the club identity, then who at the club was qualified to do so?  (Yes, I appreciate some believe LJ wasn't either).  If LJ has laid this down who is qualified to explain it to prospective managers?

I think we are missing a role that defines this and one empowered to protect the long-term vision against short-term financial gain.  This needs to inform recruitment both players and coaches including the head coach. 

What do you all think?

[BrizzleRed]

Would be a good shout if we’d gone the young head coach route.  

Problem is, we’ve got no chance of a DoF at Bristol City, because we’ve got a Mark Ashton instead!

[Davefevs]

Whether we need a DoF or not, I would prefer there to be more “football men” involved.

I’ve said plenty of times before SL is not a football man.

Mark Ashton isn’t a football man.  He might’ve been a young pro at West Brom, but he’s a negotiator and football administrator and operations manager.  He knows the business of football but he doesn’t know football.  He may be CEO and be responsible for the Department that undertake Talent ID, but he isn’t a skilled Talent Identifier. 

Been looking at Wigan’s set up as a result of the news that Cook has been interviewed:

One of the Directors: Joe Royle - a football man (well known to City fans)

Head of Recruitment: Chris Brass - a football man, who played and managed mainly in the lower reaches of the league.

I feel we are missing someone to bridge that gap between the business of football and football the business.

[Red Skin]

17 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Would be a good shout if we’d gone the young head coach route.  

Problem is, we’ve got no chance of a DoF at Bristol City, because we’ve got a Mark Ashton instead!

I don't think it's only warranted for a young coach that may need advice or guidance. 

I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking about the shite football and the journeymen Pulis inflicted on us.  If anything, an older more experienced manager could inflict more damage long term. 

He will be there for guidance, but for me DoF is more about defining our identity and protecting it.

[BigTone]

In these rather strange times I think it is a luxury we can do without especially when others are losing their jobs at AG.

[daored]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Whether we need a DoF or not, I would prefer there to be more “football men” involved.

I’ve said plenty of times before SL is not a football man.

Mark Ashton isn’t a football man.  He might’ve been a young pro at West Brom, but he’s a negotiator and football administrator and operations manager.  He knows the business of football but he doesn’t know football.  He may be CEO and be responsible for the Department that undertake Talent ID, but he isn’t a skilled Talent Identifier. 

Been looking at Wigan’s set up as a result of the news that Cook has been interviewed:

One of the Directors: Joe Royle - a football man (well known to City fans)

Head of Recruitment: Chris Brass - a football man, who played and managed mainly in the lower reaches of the league.

I feel we are missing someone to bridge that gap between the business of football and football the business.

Isn’t Peter Reid also involved with Wigan ?

[Taz]

If/when we get a DOF, which I think is the way we are going, then I don't see that happening whilst Mark Ashton is at the club in his current position.

I'm not knocking him, he has been a part of the transformation of the club off the field. We are no longer a pushover in the transfer market, largely due to him.

There was a time when someone like Brighton would come in, offer £2m take or leave it for Webster, and we would have snapped their hand off. Not the case any more....

Perhaps with Ashton taking on a bigger role on the EFL board, he may take a bit of a back seat when it comes to the playing side of the club, which could open up a position for a DOF. I don't see it happening anytime soon though, as I get the feeling that he enjoys the day to day running too much.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Cards on the table I dislike Directors of Football. Too often their role is ill defined and many managers/head coaches feel they're being undermined. John Ward certainly did by the presence of Benny Lennartson, the clown we ended up when John walked away taking Terry Connor with him. Before I could subscribe to a DoF I would want it to be abundantly clear what his role is, and it also being clear that in football matters he is subordinate to the manager/head coach who must always have the final say. Football clubs, like kitchens in top restaurants, are not democracies but are benign (hopefully) dictatorships. 

As far as MA is concerned he's more of a football man than most that post on here, he has spent his entire career in football. In any event, I'm not sure what being a football man means. You certainly don't need to have been a footballer of note to be a football man. Many top managers/coaches were not successful as footballers or played at all. Some, like Jurgen Klopp or Arsene Wenger look more like geography teachers, while Nigel Adkins was a physio. Equally many top flight footballers have shown themselves to be useless as managers/coaches and have no idea of football tactics or in identifying talent. Joey Barton I suppose would be defined as a football man, although thug or arsehole would equally apply. 

[spudski]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Whether we need a DoF or not, I would prefer there to be more “football men” involved.

I’ve said plenty of times before SL is not a football man.

Mark Ashton isn’t a football man.  He might’ve been a young pro at West Brom, but he’s a negotiator and football administrator and operations manager.  He knows the business of football but he doesn’t know football.  He may be CEO and be responsible for the Department that undertake Talent ID, but he isn’t a skilled Talent Identifier. 

Been looking at Wigan’s set up as a result of the news that Cook has been interviewed:

One of the Directors: Joe Royle - a football man (well known to City fans)

Head of Recruitment: Chris Brass - a football man, who played and managed mainly in the lower reaches of the league.

I feel we are missing someone to bridge that gap between the business of football and football the business.

This is exactly what I think too.

We have a Coach and coaches...and we have a football negotiator in MA who uses technology to find talent...and a team under him identifying that talent.

A coach says what type of player we want, they crunch the numbers so to speak, identify and find players that tick boxes.

What stands out to me, is that we have brought in players that are individually good at what they do. They obviously ticked certain boxes. However...we often played like a bunch of individuals. Not as a team...the individuals don't compliment one another. They aren't on the same wavelength...they play as individuals not as a team. It's totally disjointed.

A footballing brain will see that. Imo it's something glaringly obvious and needs addressing.

How often have we seen new signings come in and show their individual brilliance only for it to quickly diminish once 'structured' into a system that doesn't suit them.

The last two seasons we've played as individuals trying to fit...it's often like oil on water. Hence so many players and formation changes and players playing in un natural positions

[Robbored]

I reckon whether or not we get a DoF will greatly depend on what the new guy wants. Not all managers are happy with  having yet another senior guy involved in recruitment.

To me Ashton despite all his other roles at the clubs kinda fills that position anyway. He might think that we don’t need one.

[Phileas Fogg]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Whether we need a DoF or not, I would prefer there to be more “football men” involved.

I’ve said plenty of times before SL is not a football man.

Mark Ashton isn’t a football man.  He might’ve been a young pro at West Brom, but he’s a negotiator and football administrator and operations manager.  He knows the business of football but he doesn’t know football.  He may be CEO and be responsible for the Department that undertake Talent ID, but he isn’t a skilled Talent Identifier. 

Been looking at Wigan’s set up as a result of the news that Cook has been interviewed:

One of the Directors: Joe Royle - a football man (well known to City fans)

Head of Recruitment: Chris Brass - a football man, who played and managed mainly in the lower reaches of the league.

I feel we are missing someone to bridge that gap between the business of football and football the business.

I don’t necessarily disagree - but playing devil’s advocate - how do we know Ashton isn’t a skilled talent identifier? 

[BrizzleRed]

7 hours ago, Red Skin said:

I don't think it's only warranted for a young coach that may need advice or guidance. 

I still wake up in a cold sweat thinking about the shite football and the journeymen Pulis inflicted on us.  If anything, an older more experienced manager could inflict more damage long term. 

He will be there for guidance, but for me DoF is more about defining our identity and protecting it.

Fair point and for all the waffle we’ve had about our identity over they last few years, none of us has the slightest idea what ours is and I think it’s fair to say, we actually don’t have one.

Actually Mark Ashton as CEO could probably still take on the identity issue, but he appears far more interested in projecting a corporate image, rather than a football related one., hence the apparent disconnect with the fans.

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, spudski said:

What stands out to me, is that we have brought in players that are individually good at what they do. They obviously ticked certain boxes. However...we often played like a bunch of individuals. Not as a team...the individuals don't compliment one another. They aren't on the same wavelength...they play as individuals not as a team. It's totally disjointed.

That's exactly what I've felt for a couple of years now. And I think that has an impact on the whole experience of supporting a club across a season. In recent times it has rarely felt as though you're watching, or engaging with, a team...with a group of players you can identify with. Being able to do that, being able to anticipate who'd play where and do what was partly what made the successes of 2014/15 so rewarding. 

[exAtyeoMax]

Yes definitely. It’s been discussed many times on OTIB over the last four years or so. 
the lack of one could really be the missing piece of the jigsaw, get the right coach/manager for match day etc., and the DoF to sort out the rest.

I’ve felt for a long time that there isn’t the right balance between “trading” players and building the right team. Perhaps there has been reasons for that, building financial stability etc., but a lot of money has been spent, With too much reliance on stats etc., it seems unbalanced.

To me, we missed two definite times where the team had the momentum to succeed and we needed to push on for promotion and the club stalled. Perhaps with the right leadership those moments will become more frequent.

[Oh Louie louie]

Only time i recall a dof being thought about here, was when tinnion was struggling.

I recall graham taylor being mentioned.

 

[CodeRed]

The problem with deciding to create a Director of Football role at City is that SL would probably appoint Gary Johnson.

And I'm not joking.

[BrizzleRed]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

This is exactly what I think too.

We have a Coach and coaches...and we have a football negotiator in MA who uses technology to find talent...and a team under him identifying that talent.

A coach says what type of player we want, they crunch the numbers so to speak, identify and find players that tick boxes.

What stands out to me, is that we have brought in players that are individually good at what they do. They obviously ticked certain boxes. However...we often played like a bunch of individuals. Not as a team...the individuals don't compliment one another. They aren't on the same wavelength...they play as individuals not as a team. It's totally disjointed.

A footballing brain will see that. Imo it's something glaringly obvious and needs addressing.

How often have we seen new signings come in and show their individual brilliance only for it to quickly diminish once 'structured' into a system that doesn't suit them.

The last two seasons we've played as individuals trying to fit...it's often like oil on water. Hence so many players and formation changes and players playing in un natural positions

That’s a really interesting point and has always puzzled me.  I’ve got no football background and only seen the game as a spectator.  

I’d always assumed when players’ performances have tailed off a few games after they’ve arrived, this was due to just being stifled by our tactics.  So are you saying that players aren’t always that flexible in their playing style, so rather than their skills being ‘coached out of them’, they were just the wrong players to bring in to play in our set-up?

If that is the case, it takes the square pegs in round holes to a whole new level at this club!

[CheddarReds]

5 minutes ago, spudski said:

This is exactly what I think too.

We have a Coach and coaches...and we have a football negotiator in MA who uses technology to find talent...and a team under him identifying that talent.

A coach says what type of player we want, they crunch the numbers so to speak, identify and find players that tick boxes.

What stands out to me, is that we have brought in players that are individually good at what they do. They obviously ticked certain boxes. However...we often played like a bunch of individuals. Not as a team...the individuals don't compliment one another. They aren't on the same wavelength...they play as individuals not as a team. It's totally disjointed.

A footballing brain will see that. Imo it's something glaringly obvious and needs addressing.

How often have we seen new signings come in and show their individual brilliance only for it to quickly diminish once 'structured' into a system that doesn't suit them.

The last two seasons we've played as individuals trying to fit...it's often like oil on water. Hence so many players and formation changes and players playing in un natural positions

Some good points here. A DoF can help create a structure from top down regarding how we want to play on the pitch and the coaching staff we want to lead that. This can provide a more recognisable style of play so we look less like individuals and more like a team, as you say. Often clubs who work with a head coach have a DoF in place to ensure continuity in the playing and coaching staff so if a star player is sold they're ready to sign a like for like replacement, or if their manager goes they have an idea of who they want to get in because they match their ideas regarding transfers, on pitch style etc.

In many ways I'm surprised we haven't got one. I think it's fair to say we didn't have a clear style of play under Johnson and especially given his relative inexperience, especially when he first joined, a DoF would've helped support him with that while we'd still benefit from his, apparent, good coaching. 

Certainly something worth considering! 

[spudski]

28 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don’t necessarily disagree - but playing devil’s advocate - how do we know Ashton isn’t a skilled talent identifier? 

He is apparently. The point is...no one identifies whether these great individual talents compliment one another as a team.

[Robbored]

22 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Only time i recall a dof being thought about here, was when tinnion was struggling.

I recall graham taylor being mentioned.

 

Wasn’t Burt DoF with Cotterill?

[City oz]

8 hours ago, Red Skin said:

I've made this point in a couple of threads, but thought it might warrant separate consideration (or maybe not?)

Seems to me that our club identity or ethos was really something that LJ was defining.   For any manager/ head coach to define this just seems plain wrong.  Managers come and go.

The club identity should drive recruitment/sale of players.  Youth development.  And also determine which coach/manager is best suited to deliver it.

Without this role at the club, the danger is that when it's left to the manager/coach to define we lurch from one identity to another as each manager brings in their own philosophy.  And we need to overhaul the squad and re-educate coaches across all levels of the club to align to the new managers vision.

If it hasn't been LJ defining the club identity, then who at the club was qualified to do so?  (Yes, I appreciate some believe LJ wasn't either).  If LJ has laid this down who is qualified to explain it to prospective managers?

I think we are missing a role that defines this and one empowered to protect the long-term vision against short-term financial gain.  This needs to inform recruitment both players and coaches including the head coach. 

What do you all think?

Not another one on 1/2 a million pounds a year. There are others at the club making sacrifices at the moment. To me it sounds like a role not required at the club especially if the criteria does not include football club experience.

[spudski]

10 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

That’s a really interesting point and has always puzzled me.  I’ve got no football background and only seen the game as a spectator.  

I’d always assumed when players’ performances have tailed off a few games after they’ve arrived, this was due to just being stifled by our tactics.  So are you saying that players aren’t always that flexible in their playing style, so rather than their skills being ‘coached out of them’, they were just the wrong players to bring in to play in our set-up?

If that is the case, it takes the square pegs in round holes to a whole new level at this club!

Players can play to structure and asked of tactics...but they still have natural movement, reading of a game, quickness of mind, instinct and understanding of a team mates thoughts. As an example Afobe and Palmer were on the same wavelength. As an opposite example how often is Weimann on the same wavelength as any of our midfield?

A team of players need to compliment one another. In the heat and pressure of a game, the natural ability, instinct and quickness of thought and reading of the game take over.

How often have we seen players doing one thing, that is completely opposite to what his team mate is asking...

Our midfield and frontline have been oil and water pretty much all season.

[City oz]

2 minutes ago, City oz said:

Not another one on 1/2 a million pounds a year. There are others at the club making sacrifices at the moment. To me it sounds like a role not required at the club especially if the criteria does not include football club experience.

Just looked at the add. I think me and Big Tone could do this between us for a lot less money. We both have European and over sees experience 

[Floatn Over]

Appointment of a D of F could be the way forward, a “name” taking on that role would not only raise the club profile (interviews etc) but would be on hand for advice and to maintain a steer on the identity/style.

It crossed my mind when apparently we have spoken to Glen Hoddle in the last few days and I along with another forum user mentioned Big Sam with Dean Holden retained.

Is it really workable though, could there ever be full harmony ?  Great when results are going well but when results take a downward turn, inevitably the questions would be raised about the D of F doing better than the Head Coach/Manager etc.

SL could perhaps be thinking that as he’s thrown money and different managers into the mix, this would be a new path.

[RedRock]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Players can play to structure and asked of tactics...but they still have natural movement, reading of a game, quickness of mind, instinct and understanding of a team mates thoughts. As an example Afobe and Palmer were on the same wavelength. As an opposite example how often is Weimann on the same wavelength as any of our midfield?

A team of players need to compliment one another. In the heat and pressure of a game, the natural ability, instinct and quickness of thought and reading of the game take over.

How often have we seen players doing one thing, that is completely opposite to what his team mate is asking...

Our midfield and frontline have been oil and water pretty much all season.

We’ve a midfield?

Seriously? 

 

I’m with Weimann. I can’t see one either.

 I suspect trying to find our midfield is the reason why he runs around like a headless chicken for 90 minutes. 

 

[BrizzleRed]

7 minutes ago, spudski said:

Players can play to structure and asked of tactics...but they still have natural movement, reading of a game, quickness of mind, instinct and understanding of a team mates thoughts. As an example Afobe and Palmer were on the same wavelength. As an opposite example how often is Weimann on the same wavelength as any of our midfield?

A team of players need to compliment one another. In the heat and pressure of a game, the natural ability, instinct and quickness of thought and reading of the game take over.

How often have we seen players doing one thing, that is completely opposite to what his team mate is asking...

Our midfield and frontline have been oil and water pretty much all season.

Yep, it’s definitely been clear how disjointed we’ve looked for a long time now.  I’d just put that down to the muddled and constantly changing tactics that were confusing everyone and prevented them getting that understanding and speed of thought that comes with a settled team and playing style.

It’s going to be really interesting to see how this squad of players respond under a new head coach next season, who can hopefully  bring out more of the talents that many of these players have shown at points in the past.

[exAtyeoMax]

7 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

Yep, it’s definitely been clear how disjointed we’ve looked for a long time now.  I’d just put that down to the muddled and constantly changing tactics that were confusing everyone and prevented them getting that understanding and speed of thought that comes with a settled team and playing style.

It’s going to be really interesting to see how this squad of players respond under a new head coach next season, who can hopefully  bring out more of the talents that many of these players have shown at points in the past.

Yes, but there was always mention of trying to fit players in...square pegs and all that. LJ had that to contend with that as well

[extonsred]

CH. DoF

PC head coach

 

Sorted n everyone happy!! 

[supercidered]

1 hour ago, daored said:

Isn’t Peter Reid also involved with Wigan ?

Good grief is he? 

Peter Reid Monkey Heeed. Good in a different era and that's where he needs to stay!

[BrizzleRed]

14 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Yes, but there was always mention of trying to fit players in...square pegs and all that. LJ had that to contend with that as well

Oh yes and I have some sympathy with LJ if he was having to accept players who weren’t suited to how he wanted to play.

I think LJ’s problem was, he was chopping and changing things so much, I wonder if any any selection of 11 players could have settled into a cohesive unit.