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Dean Holden Short Listed


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18 minutes ago, Dolman Block B said:

Quite honestly if Dean Holden was to be appointed the majority of fans would be very unhappy.

Hes a right nice guy and gives his al,l but lets be honest, if the club wants to move to a higher level the new coach has to have a wealth of experience.

It has to be CH or PC then, preferably CH as this will give the fans a massive lift and sign of intent.

 

 

 

 

Think the problem is that a lot of fans will feel cheated with the likes of CH and PC applying with good track records. Thought the all point folks sacking Lee was that there was no progress, football had become boring and he had taken us as far as he could and now we are looking for that next step up

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10 hours ago, Andy082005 said:

Holden will not get the job. Someone posted an interested thought on twitter....leak Holden to the press, then when we go for Cook people will be happy it’s not Holden 

better to go from Holden to Cook.....then from Hughton to Cook 

Whist i dont think that holden is right for the job and we need to push on as a club i hope this isnt true as it would be a shitty way to treat an employee of the club who with lj did a decent job moving the club forward. 

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It makes sense for Holden to get an interview and thus be shortlisted from the clubs point of view.

A lot has been made of the type of appointment the club are going for. The general concensus seems to be we're probably looking at managers from all of the below categories with some examples of who we are rumoured to be looking at.

  • Seasoned proven manager (as close to a guarantee of success as you can find) - Chris Hughton
  • Upcoming exciting big name former player (to galvanise the club and support, put us on the map) - Steven Gerrard, Robbie Fowler, John Terry
  • Exciting foreign coach (achieved success elsewhere, may be more familiar with a system with an Ashton role in place) - No names yet, hopefully Arne Slot
  • Manager with experience at the level - not as much proven success as Hughton but respectable record - Paul Cook, Alex Neil
  • Upcoming lower league manager - success at their level, shown potential for more - Ryan Lowe
  • Promoting from within - manager that understands the club, understands the system and knows the players, provides a 'pathway' for coaches from within the club just like the youth players (in theory) - Dean Holden

I wouldn't want Holden at all, I think we need a new broom and fresh ideas. I can understand, if my quick rationale above is correct, why he's been given an interview. He performed respectably as caretaker, maybe the players and board like him. 

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1 hour ago, SX227 said:

But,but what about all the squillions Uncle Steve has spent on us?

 

Surely he can appoint who he likes.

After all, we owe everything to SL......

 

That was the attitude from some when it was suggested BCFC was a plaything for Uncle Steve.

 

Now Holdens in the frame, Lansdowns a frickin idiot, and everyone is after a ST refund.

 

SL will appoint who he wants and we can all do one.

 

His club. His land. His rules.

 

 

 

 

 

If he appoints Holden we will all be doing one!! Even by Steve Lansdown managerial appointment standards which, lets face it, are not a million miles from the bottom of the barrel as it is, appointing Dean Holden would be a catastrophic decision.............certainly in the short term and longer term could only be reversed by either a run of results delivered by Dean that people do not have the faith he could produce at present OR a sacking followed by big name appointment. If the benefactor and his advisors are unable to grasp that such an appointment would be interpreted by a significant portion of our fanbase as a rich owner sticking both middle fingers up to the paying customer then they know less about football than I thought.

Before people beat me with the Pat Lam stick in terms of managerial appointment standards I'll agree with anyone that he was a great appointment BUT it was a Rugby appointment and the financials in Rugby are far different from those in football. All I know is that the football manager appointments made at Ashton Gate have either been uninspiring or downright stupidity (Tinnion for example) with the odd short lived success (GJ for a couple of seasons, Cotterill for one season, LJ one cup run) thrown in since the owner took control of the football club.

I do not believe Holden will be appointed for one second but if he is this could be the biggest example of "make the same mistakes and wonder why the results aren't different" that I am ever likely to witness.

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1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

If it's done properly though it does work, look at Liverpool in the 70's and 80's following Shankly's death, all the managers were appointed from within and they had total success over 2 decades, none of those new managers had any previous experience as a manager but the system worked. The Liverpool fans weren't throwing their toys out of the pram because they didn't get a 'big name'.

@ashton_fan

Did you see my post in thread Swansea v Brentford?

Great minds think alike.

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1 hour ago, ashton_fan said:

If it's done properly though it does work, look at Liverpool in the 70's and 80's following Shankly's death, all the managers were appointed from within and they had total success over 2 decades, none of those new managers had any previous experience as a manager but the system worked. The Liverpool fans weren't throwing their toys out of the pram because they didn't get a 'big name'.

The appointments from within started after success was achieved with Shankly. All new Managers were following a system that WORKED and only made small alterations to suit themselves. Bristol City do not have a system that works or anything like it therefore appointing from within is just another expensive mistake waiting to happen (it's certainly not the "cheap option" to keep paying Managers compensation that's for sure).

I agree that we do not necessarily need a big name but at the same time we are not in any position to expect an "appoint from within" option to work in any way, shape or form. It would be a massive mistake in my view and could easily see 18-21K crowds of the recent past dipping to 12-15K. I see it as that serious.

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1 hour ago, SX227 said:

But,but what about all the squillions Uncle Steve has spent on us?

 

Surely he can appoint who he likes.

After all, we owe everything to SL......

 

That was the attitude from some when it was suggested BCFC was a plaything for Uncle Steve.

 

Now Holdens in the frame, Lansdowns a frickin idiot, and everyone is after a ST refund.

 

SL will appoint who he wants and we can all do one.

 

His club. His land. His rules.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually like any club. 

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Why take so long to appoint the stand in manager as permanent? 
It must mean one of:

a) all the other options were not deemed to be as good as DH (not a credible explanation)

b) no one else wanted to take the job or we couldn’t meet their terms so DH is a last resort (massively uninspiring explanation)

c) the powers that be are totally clueless (cynicism aside, not a credible explanation either)

I think we might need the help of an even higher power at the moment. Start praying everyone.

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48 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It makes sense for Holden to get an interview and thus be shortlisted from the clubs point of view.

A lot has been made of the type of appointment the club are going for. The general concensus seems to be we're probably looking at managers from all of the below categories with some examples of who we are rumoured to be looking at.

  • Seasoned proven manager (as close to a guarantee of success as you can find) - Chris Hughton
  • Upcoming exciting big name former player (to galvanise the club and support, put us on the map) - Steven Gerrard, Robbie Fowler, John Terry
  • Exciting foreign coach (achieved success elsewhere, may be more familiar with a system with an Ashton role in place) - No names yet, hopefully Arne Slot
  • Manager with experience at the level - not as much proven success as Hughton but respectable record - Paul Cook, Alex Neil
  • Upcoming lower league manager - success at their level, shown potential for more - Ryan Lowe
  • Promoting from within - manager that understands the club, understands the system and knows the players, provides a 'pathway' for coaches from within the club just like the youth players (in theory) - Dean Holden

I wouldn't want Holden at all, I think we need a new broom and fresh ideas. I can understand, if my quick rationale above is correct, why he's been given an interview. He performed respectably as caretaker, maybe the players and board like him. 

If we accept that we are indeed looking at managers which fit those categories - and as you say these are all names that have been mention somewhere - what does that tell us about the process? I mean, who would go into an absolutely predictable recruitment exercise (predictable in that at some point every manager is going to leave) with such an immense range of possible characteristics in play, having done no prior filtering? That reads like a list which almost every decent manager/coach in the world could be fitted into! No wonder it's taking so long.

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3 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

If we accept that we are indeed looking at managers which fit those categories - and as you say these are all names that have been mention somewhere - what does that tell us about the process? I mean, who would go into an absolutely predictable recruitment exercise (predictable in that at some point every manager is going to leave) with such an immense range of possible characteristics in play, having done no prior filtering? That reads like a list which almost every decent manager/coach in the world could be fitted into! No wonder it's taking so long.

You’re right.

It would suggest a process that didn’t actually know what “type” we actually wanted, which is borderline insanity.

If true I still can’t get over the comment yesterday about a “shortlist” of up to 6.

That is not a shortlist, when I recruit (& I do, a lot) a decent rule of thumb is to get to a final shortlist of around 3 per vacancy.

If we are seriously still choosing from that number that either suggests we have no idea what type we are even looking for or we are nowhere near the end of the process.

Holden should be nowhere near this part of the process if we genuinely intend to appoint in the next couple of days.

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5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

If he appoints Holden we will all be doing one!! Even by Steve Lansdown managerial appointment standards which, lets face it, are not a million miles from the bottom of the barrel as it is, appointing Dean Holden would be a catastrophic decision.............certainly in the short term and longer term could only be reversed by either a run of results delivered by Dean that people do not have the faith he could produce at present OR a sacking followed by big name appointment. If the benefactor and his advisors are unable to grasp that such an appointment would be interpreted a significant portion of our fanbase as a rich owner sticking both middle fingers up to the paying customer then they know less about football than I thought.

Before people beat me with the Pat Lam stick in terms of managerial appointment standards I'll agree with anyone that he was a great appointment BUT it was a Rugby appointment and the financials in Rugby are far different from those in football. All I know is that the football manager appointments made at Ashton Gate have either been uninspiring or downright stupidity (Tinnion for example) with the odd short lived success (GJ for a couple of seasons, Cotterill for one season, LJ one cup run) thrown in since the owner took control of the football club.

I do not believe Holden will be appointed for one second but if he is this could be the biggest example of "make the same mistakes and wonder why the results aren't different" that I am ever likely to witness.

No we will not all be doing one. Having supported City for well over 50 years I have never been consulted by the board/owners in the selection of a manager because I am just a customer. I have often disagreed with the choice of manager but I have continued to support the club regardless.I don’t support the club because of who the manager is and I am 100% not going to walk away from my club that the owners have transformed over recent years.
 

If Dean Holden gets appointed then I will back him as I’m sure will most fans whether they approve or not. There has been plenty of times over the last few years of people (mostly on the internet) saying they will walk away and yet attendances and season ticket sales have continued to rise. As supporters we can all be passionate, we can all be upset on occasions but one thing I can guarantee is that we will not all be doing one.

 

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17 hours ago, lou2BS7 said:

I hope this is a joke. All the talk of ambition and premier league means nothing with this appointment.

i will genuinely go watch Bath instead 

The talk of ambition and premier league lasts about the same amount of time that bids come in for our better players and they are sold off immediately 

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Promoting your number 2 can work, but it doesn't mean that it won't either. 

There are plenty of examples of people being promoted from number 2 after the previous boss has left, and many do work out. The other side of the coin is that they don't - there is no winning formula.

The game is full of excellent number 2's who haven't quite made it as a 1 - Steve McClaren, Brian Kidd, Keith Millen even (Crystal Palace in the Prem), but they've never quite made the step up to be the main man.

By and large if you've been a part of a hugely successful team, the top man leaves/retires and passes the torch on, there is more chance of it working out, as the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". In our case, it's not been successful. This also rarely happens however.

Holden and Jamie Mac have been a part of the coaching set up for a long time under Johnson. They've seen what works, and what doesn't. The concern for me, is that in the 5 games Holden had, although he changed the shape and didn't tinker too much (a huge criticism of Lee), he wasn’t very quick in making changes (another criticism of Lee) when needed. 

When Williams was sent off,many including myself, thought that was it for him. Last appearance for us. It was after all, an absolutely stupid and avoidable red card. However as soon as he was available again, he's back in. Were we that desperate for players - was there nobody else available to play instead of him? Could understand it more if he was on the bench....

Holden is a nice guy, seems more down to earth and less likely to spout some "Johnson bingo phrase" nonsense. Brian Tinnion was a nice guy. Keith Millen was a nice guy. Neither of them should have been given the job either.

I'm sure (maybe hopeful even) that if he has been interviewed, it's more of a case of giving him the chance, rather than being a serious contender for the permanent job.

If he is given it, I'll back him and give him a chance to prove me wrong. I'd love for that to be the case if it happens. I just don't see it working.

Fresh eyes, fresh ideas, fresh chances. If that means we need to accept a season of a slight rebuild, and change of "identity" then I'd be happy to finish just outside of the playoffs, if it meant that we blooded some new legs, showed some promise, and went for it the following year.

No appointment is going to be a guaranteed success. We need to give ourselves the best possible footing though.

 

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3 minutes ago, Taz said:

 

I'm sure (maybe hopeful even) that if he has been interviewed, it's more of a case of giving him the chance, rather than being a serious contender for the permanent job.

 

This is all it is in my opinion. Not a chance will they actually choose him. LJ almost made it seem at though himself, DH & JM were a “trio” head coach, sharing out media duties & what not so all equally liable in the terrible bouts of form. Really can’t see it being Holden.

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3 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Fulham and Brentford both went for internal appointments.......
 

Fulham made quite a terrible appointment so not worth the comparison. Parker should of had them put up more of a fight in the Prem & should have walked this league with the players at his disposal.

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36 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

If we accept that we are indeed looking at managers which fit those categories - and as you say these are all names that have been mention somewhere - what does that tell us about the process? I mean, who would go into an absolutely predictable recruitment exercise (predictable in that at some point every manager is going to leave) with such an immense range of possible characteristics in play, having done no prior filtering? That reads like a list which almost every decent manager/coach in the world could be fitted into! No wonder it's taking so long.

That's true - I mean that's simply my guesswork based on the names we've seen rumoured trying to make sense of the Holden link. If i'm anywhere near right, it does indicate we don't have a 'type' we're particularly after and in theory any manager that can feasibly mould their style into our system could be a fit.

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27 minutes ago, Johnny Musicworks said:

No we will not all be doing one. Having supported City for well over 50 years I have never been consulted by the board/owners in the selection of a manager because I am just a customer. I have often disagreed with the choice of manager but I have continued to support the club regardless.I don’t support the club because of who the manager is and I am 100% not going to walk away from my club that the owners have transformed over recent years.
 

If Dean Holden gets appointed then I will back him as I’m sure will most fans whether they approve or not. There has been plenty of times over the last few years of people (mostly on the internet) saying they will walk away and yet attendances and season ticket sales have continued to rise. As supporters we can all be passionate, we can all be upset on occasions but one thing I can guarantee is that we will not all be doing one.

 

I think the point is that we all need a boost right now, what with the coronavirus, the fact that we can't attend games and also the capitulation in the second half of last season. Appointing Holden is hardly going to bring the feelgood factor back.

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8 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

I think the point is that we all need a boost right now, what with the coronavirus, the fact that we can't attend games and also the capitulation in the second half of last season. Appointing Holden is hardly going to bring the feelgood factor back.

Totally agree . There are wider issues particularly if faced with same options Re season tickets (refund/stream ) as this term. Appoint someone who will give the fans a bit of hope that we can take that next step  and more will stream . Appoint Holden then just sit back and await the refunds instead . 

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24 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Fulham and Brentford both went for internal appointments.......
 

Yes....because they had quality backroom staff, it really is dependent on who are the assistants.  It works for some and not for others, it is a very inexact science

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I know we don’t really know exactly what’s going on so I’ll start with that caveat.

...BUT...

Why are we taking SIX candidates through to a second interview (according to GMcG)? SIX! You wouldn’t do that in any ordinary recruitment process. And in this case, you’ve already got a fair idea about the suitability of the candidates before you even meet them, because their body of work is there for all to see. You’ll even know a bit about their personalities.

This is beyond “due diligence”, this is a bizarre and convaluted process that risks not getting the guy you know you really want, and compromises the time the new man has to prepare the squad and buy players for the fast-approaching new season.

I’m struggling to make any sense of this delay and dither - even more so when Hughton (the obvious candidate) and Cook (a good candidate) remain in the frame.

Have we just become obsessed with procedure and lost sight of what we’re actually trying to achieve here?

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3 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Holden playing Ashley Williams again as soon as he was back from his ban wound me up. 

After his sending off I never wanted to see him in a City shirt again, I worry that if Holden gets the job he'll actually be offered a contract. 

Let's not forget, the two teams we beat were terrible. Hull ended up finishing last & Boro finished 5 points above the drop zone. 

I also wouldn't keep him or McAllister on in a coaching capacity. 

And @Taz too, as you also expressed your annoyance at Williams’ selection.

Holden had set out to play a back 3....he stuck with his 352 for every game.  Williams came back in as both Baker and Benkovic weren’t fit for Swansea, so all he had was Kalas and Vyner.  Benkovic wasn’t fully fit for Preston so started on the bench.  I like that he stuck to his system principles.

I think many of us thought Forest would be his last game, but in Holden’s system he needed him, so picked him.

If Holden gets the job, I can see Williams getting a new contract but as player-coach like Alby had...on significantly lower wages.

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20 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Yes....because they had quality backroom staff, it really is dependent on who are the assistants.  It works for some and not for others, it is a very inexact science

How do you know they are quality u til you try them?

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25 minutes ago, Baldyman said:

Totally agree . There are wider issues particularly if faced with same options Re season tickets (refund/stream ) as this term. Appoint someone who will give the fans a bit of hope that we can take that next step  and more will stream . Appoint Holden then just sit back and await the refunds instead . 

They won't give you a refund because you don't like the appointment!

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