Sheff Wednesday 12 point reduction next season

[Major Isewater]

It really is a dog’s breakfast.

Clubs still abuse the system and it is patently unfair . I don’t know what the answer is but if clubs start taking the EFL to court then we may as well have the courts running the sport .

This end of season is completely ridiculous coming on the back of the COVID disaster. How can any club prepare for the new season with so much uncertainty ? 

 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

23 minutes ago, Owl Visiting said:

Their argument will be with the EFL won't it? If they go down the legal route I wouldn't have thought there is enough time to overturn their relegation, the best they could hope for is compensation right? 

I'd certainly be asking why it took 8 months from charge to publishing a verdict, something that must be addressed for the future. It is not fair to clubs for a charge to drag on so long. If guilty other clubs need to know that any punishment will be handed down in season. If innocent it is unfair for a club to have its integrity and reputation questioned for such a length of time. 

[Sleepy1968]

2 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I'd certainly be asking why it took 8 months from charge to publishing a verdict, something that must be addressed for the future. It is not fair to clubs for a charge to drag on so long. If guilty other clubs need to know that any punishment will be handed down in season. If innocent it is unfair for a club to have its integrity and reputation questioned for such a length of time. 

I suggest guilty clubs won't tend to be open and honest in their dealings with the EFL, doing all they can to get in the way of supplying all the evidence needed to judge their alleged misconduct, and thus prolong any verdict.

[downendcity]

9 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I'd certainly be asking why it took 8 months from charge to publishing a verdict, something that must be addressed for the future. It is not fair to clubs for a charge to drag on so long. If guilty other clubs need to know that any punishment will be handed down in season. If innocent it is unfair for a club to have its integrity and reputation questioned for such a length of time. 

I think the Wigan case could/should create a precedent. 

I.e any points deduction ( for any offence) should be applied in the same season if it cases a club to be relegated or prevents them taking a promotion place/reaching play offs. If it doesn't cause either, so  the club doesn't lose anything by the punishment, then the points deduction is applied the following season.

It also points to the urgent need for the eFL to properly get it's act together. We know that the previous regime cocked up their own ffp rules, thereby allowing clubs to circumvent the financial rules. However, there is still the feeling that clubs are able to run rings around the EFL's attempts to police their own rules and we now face the unedifying spectacle of law courts possibly deciding last seasons relegation places.

If the championship is a completion entered into by clubs subject to a set of rules, then surely the EFL can legislate within those rules that there can be no appeal against punishment meted out for specified breaches of those rules. To do so would need the rules - especially around ffp - to close loopholes and make them as watertight as possible by appointing financial and legal experts of the same level ( and cost) as clubs obviously employ to find a way around or to exploit the rules.

If clubs want to compete, they accept the rules. If they won't accept punishment then chuck them out and make sure that option is clearly stated within the rules!

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd be very interested in @Coppello thoughts on this.

On the general issue, agree very much with @downendcity. Watertight rules, that all clubs are bound to- it's laughable that the points penalty is in 2020/21.

I'd make two observations. It came out in The Times on I think September 24th that the EFL were asking the club to explain why the differential in the Reporting Period vs the Land Registry.. 

I with less data and info at my disposal flagged this on here at least a month before, maybe sooner.

I'd have to trawl my post history but I'm sure I flagged on here ahead of it making the press.

Makes you wonder tbh.

I also believe that the EFL were possibly incorrect in pursuit of charges vs Chansiri, plus former employees Meire and Redgate at the same time as charges vs the club for FFP. Borne out of anger?

Irrespective, it is harder to prove these. Win the case against the club with a suitable punishment handed down and then pursue if you can be bothered, the individuals!

[Olé]

I like Sheffield Wednesday and their fans but christ - I find the EFL's approach to points deductions the most transparently self serving mechanism I can imagine. People talk about protecting the integrity of sports, but meanwhile we've got the EFL constructing the most complex web of judgements and timings, carefully timing decisions that allow them to dawdle for years over some punishments while making others within days.

At this point we may as well give the EFL crayons and let then draw next season's final league table, there is no point us playing it.

[Genghis Khan's pants]

Rather than a points deduction which can be fudged seemingly, how about just relegation if found guilty of such "crimes".

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, downendcity said:

Wigan's administration occurred during this last season, Their points deduction was either applied this season if it resulted in their relegation, or if they avoided relegation even with the points deduction then it would applied next season.

Wednesday offence(s) occurred during the season before last, so why did the EFL not apply the same mxim as with Wednesday?

I know some will say that this allows time for any appeal, but it seems to me very convenient that the judgement has been made after the season has ended and certainly smacks of one rule for one (historically) big club and another for the (historically) smaller club.

The only possible reason I can see is that Wigan's administration makes their penalty absolute and non negotiable. Whereas the whole background to Wednesday's offences is tied up in the shambles that is/was the EFL ffp rules, with potential for major legal challenges, which could cause major disruption to next season's fixtures, and especially so given the very short summer/pre-season.

That’s not quite right DC.

Had Wigan been inside bottom 3, and therefore relegated, 12pt deduction would be applied next season.

As Wigan were outside bottom 3, 12pt deduction applied.  If that means relegation, tough.  If it meant safety, luck them.

Happy to be corrected.

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not quite right DC.

Had Wigan been inside bottom 3, and therefore relegated, 12pt deduction would be applied next season.

As Wigan were outside bottom 3, 12pt deduction applied.  If that means relegation, tough.  If it meant safety, luck them.

Happy to be corrected.

Don't need to be corrected

[Harry]

14 minutes ago, Genghis Khan's pants said:

Rather than a points deduction which can be fudged seemingly, how about just relegation if found guilty of such "crimes".

Exactly. Bollox to all the feckin around with minus this or that, maybe next year maybe this. 
Just apply a rule that says, break the rules = relegated. 
Easy. 

[Harry]

It’s a Spion Kop-out! 

[downendcity]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not quite right DC.

Had Wigan been inside bottom 3, and therefore relegated, 12pt deduction would be applied next season.

As Wigan were outside bottom 3, 12pt deduction applied.  If that means relegation, tough.  If it meant safety, luck them.

Happy to be corrected.

My mistake Dave.

It's a dogs dinner isn,t it, but hat notwithstanding it does appear that overrule was applied to Wigan and another to Wednesday in the wy the points penalty was applied.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

My mistake Dave.

It's a dogs dinner isn,t it, but hat notwithstanding it does appear that overrule was applied to Wigan and another to Wednesday in the wy the points penalty was applied.

It is indeed.

It seems very inconsistent.  Wonder what Derby are thinking?  Probably thank god ours wasn’t the first.  In fact, being massively hypocritical I hope Derby get 12 points too, but it’s next season.  In which case I’ll take Wednesday’s being next season too.

[Portland Bill]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Why next season?

Is it because Wigan actually went into administration?

[Lrrr]

20 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Is it because Wigan actually went into administration?

Wednesday were charged in November ish time though 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Owl Visiting said:

Their argument will be with the EFL won't it? If they go down the legal route I wouldn't have thought there is enough time to overturn their relegation, the best they could hope for is compensation right? 

True- in theory in the process can be expedited but then in theory/on paper- in fact in any case- it shouldn't as it seems to have done, take 5 weeks between end of hearing and decision!

[Mr Popodopolous]

On a wider note, might there be a case that other clubs who were compliant have a claim against other clubs who were not- for distorting the competition?

On an interesting and unusual note, I did read last September- in The Times again- that there could yet be a scenario where the EFL have a claim against Derby. Now it might have meant hearing wise ie to push for a sporting sanction but it was not clear...and I assume what goes for Derby also goes for Sheffield Wednesday- possibly others too but certainly where there has been an element of misleading the EFL.

The Times aka Matt Lawton yet again- this does not necessarily feel like the last word on it yet.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fury-at-delay-to-sheffield-wednesday-points-penalty-9mwc22dxs

[havanatopia]

7 hours ago, Owl Visiting said:

Relieved the waiting is over more than anything. I thought I'd prefer to get a deduction this season, but now its happened I'm pleased we've at least got a fighting chance next season.

The decision won't win us any friends but I don't give a monkeys to be honest.

Corrected that for you.

7 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Wigan put themselves into administration which is an automatic 12 point deduction. 
 

If Sheffield Weds had done the same they would have had the same ‘ punishment ‘ .

 

Assuming you are right those remarks sum up the entire farce quite nicely; IE Do what you have to do and take the medicine or try and wriggle away and get a puny slap on the wrist. 

Parry really has not covered himself in any glory here and there was I, probably amongst others, that thought he was brought on board to get tough and fair... He has failed miserably in both departments.

Go Parry, you limp rag, go now. Bring that ex Swindle manager in!

3 hours ago, Harry said:

Exactly. Bollox to all the feckin around with minus this or that, maybe next year maybe this. 
Just apply a rule that says, break the rules = relegated. 
Easy. 

As the Barnsley number 2 similarly opined; the FL are gutless and should be leading the world in rule adherence not cowering in a corner like imputent scared little children handing down punishments as if by whimsical apology.

We have all known the governing body to be weak, not least when the only football league in the world had the mantle of being called THE Football League by the fact they were the first, decided to utterly capitulate that lofty title and add The English in front of it.... Pathetic, weak and a massive gun shot in the cleft foot. 

Parry needs to go and go now and so does the entire board and be replaced by patriotic experts.

And bring back our rightful name.

Automatically relegate Derby and Sheffield Wednesday. 

P.s. you cannot change the rules for tougher ones next season because you will have hugely disruptive law suits flying in from all angles. Dumb bastards.

[WayOutWest]

9 hours ago, Fuber said:

Wouldnt want him. We have probably got enough Midfielders with Walsh and Morrell back (my personal opinion).

 

100% disagree with this. Bannan is a championship midfield maestro. He runs games and I would buy him without condition. 

To say that Walsh and Morrell will be our first choice is again folly. 

I could be wrong, but Morrell has played 1 game for us in the Championship. Feel free to correct me.

Liam Walsh 15 games?

V Barry Bannan at least 230. 

Adam Nagy has probably played more games than these 2. 

This is my problem. Walsh and Morrell have had great seasons on loan. But no manager on earth is going to build a team around these 2 with combined less than 20 games.

I just don't see it...... At the expense of Bannan absolutely no chance. 

Cheers 

[WayOutWest]

52 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I'm sure there's plenty of examples of players who have not played much championship football becoming quality championship footballers.

Well actually every single player at one point hadn't played any championship football before.

Bannan is 31 in December. I think signing him would be huge mistake. Using any of our budget on a midfielder type we already have would be a waste.

Walsh might even be better than him now. Morrell is another tiny midfielder who is a great passer and always wants the ball.

I think we will need a more solid defensive midfielder in there.

 

Bannan at 31 on a 2 year contract would be good business.

Nagy is about as close a comparison to Bannan we have. He has played more games than Walsh and Morrell combined I think, and the jury is still out on him. 

There is nothing to suggest that Walsh or Morrell are at that level. I like you hope they are. 

These 2 are completely unproven at this level. My opinion is that any incoming manager won't be building at team around them. 

 

 

[22A]

https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/291364-breaking-news-efl-verdict-12-points/

Their fans seem to accept it and lay the blame on their owner.

[Taz]

There's a simple solution to this - break the rules and you get relegated to the bottom tier. I bet there wouldn't be as many trying it on then!!

As for this season/next season, surely it's a simple case of when the decision has been made. For example the Wigan decision was made before the season ended, therefore only fair it was applied this season (although that falls apart when they say that if they were relegated they would start next season on -12).

Wednesday's decision, was technically made after the season had finished, so they'll presumably take that stance?

What does still amaze me though is that there are still so many clubs that are guilty of these types of things, yet the EFL STILL seem completely incapable of making a decision that is fair, and more importantly, can't seem to sort out their "fit and proper tests".

It does seem that if your face fits at the top table you'll get treated a bit better (Villa, Derby, Wednesday), yet if you're more of a Wigan, you're not that important so to hell with you.

It's a corrupt system from the top to the bottom.

 

[wayne allisons tongues]

Sky reported that independant panel said as decision was made yesterday and in non covid times new season would be about to start penalty is for the new season.

If that’s fair I don’t know but if panels are excluding Covid in decisions then EFL should be doing the same for FFP. If not your going to have decisions made on different scenarios. 

[harvey54]

13 hours ago, Fuber said:

Wouldnt want him. We have probably got enough Midfielders with Walsh and Morrell back (my personal opinion).

He's also on extortionate wages (rumoured 40kpw).

Been apart of Wednesday's issue in regards to FFP. Too may jouorneymen on high wages.

 

No we really don't need the midfielder that's probably been the best in the league for the last few seasons. 

And we don't need Chris Hughton either 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Reported that Charlton have sought an explanation from the EFL as to why Sheffield Wednesdays punishment was not applied to this season. Looks as if they will consider legal action dependant on the explanation given. 

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, wayne allisons tongues said:

Sky reported that independant panel said as decision was made yesterday and in non covid times new season would be about to start penalty is for the new season.

If that’s fair I don’t know but if panels are excluding Covid in decisions then EFL should be doing the same for FFP. If not your going to have decisions made on different scenarios. 

But then you have to question when the decision would have been made in a non-covid time, would it still have been made yesterday either 1 day or 8 days before the new season (can't remember when it was due to start) or would it have been made weeks/months ago if there wasn't lockdown disruption etc.

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, Taz said:

There's a simple solution to this - break the rules and you get relegated to the bottom tier. I bet there wouldn't be as many trying it on then!!

As for this season/next season, surely it's a simple case of when the decision has been made. For example the Wigan decision was made before the season ended, therefore only fair it was applied this season (although that falls apart when they say that if they were relegated they would start next season on -12).

Wednesday's decision, was technically made after the season had finished, so they'll presumably take that stance?

What does still amaze me though is that there are still so many clubs that are guilty of these types of things, yet the EFL STILL seem completely incapable of making a decision that is fair, and more importantly, can't seem to sort out their "fit and proper tests".

It does seem that if your face fits at the top table you'll get treated a bit better (Villa, Derby, Wednesday), yet if you're more of a Wigan, you're not that important so to hell with you.

It's a corrupt system from the top to the bottom.

Wouldn't say corrupt, but especially under the previous EFL regime, the rules were not well thought through, have more holes than City's defence and are administered and policed by an organisation ill equipped to contend with club's that seem to have more nous and better professional advice than do the EFL.

It reminds me of the introduction of VAR and technology to the top flight. The concept and aims are laudable and find favour with all fans, if they did what it says on the tin. Unfortunately once football's administrators get involved, and apply their interpretation you end up with a dog's dinner that seems to please no one, generates more controversy than it resolves and the game ends up the loser.

 

[Davefevs]

9 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Corrected that for you.

Assuming you are right those remarks sum up the entire farce quite nicely; IE Do what you have to do and take the medicine or try and wriggle away and get a puny slap on the wrist. 

Parry really has not covered himself in any glory here and there was I, probably amongst others, that thought he was brought on board to get tough and fair... He has failed miserably in both departments.

Go Parry, you limp rag, go now. Bring that ex Swindle manager in!

As the Barnsley number 2 similarly opined; the FL are gutless and should be leading the world in rule adherence not cowering in a corner like imputent scared little children handing down punishments as if by whimsical apology.

We have all known the governing body to be weak, not least when the only football league in the world had the mantle of being called THE Football League by the fact they were the first, decided to utterly capitulate that lofty title and add The English in front of it.... Pathetic, weak and a massive gun shot in the cleft foot. 

Parry needs to go and go now and so does the entire board and be replaced by patriotic experts.

And bring back our rightful name.

Automatically relegate Derby and Sheffield Wednesday. 

P.s. you cannot change the rules for tougher ones next season because you will have hugely disruptive law suits flying in from all angles. Dumb bastards.

 Before we castigate the EFF / Parry, let’s wait until we see if they appeal the independent board decision.

5 hours ago, WayOutWest said:

Bannan at 31 on a 2 year contract would be good business.

Nagy is about as close a comparison to Bannan we have. He has played more games than Walsh and Morrell combined I think, and the jury is still out on him. 

There is nothing to suggest that Walsh or Morrell are at that level. I like you hope they are. 

These 2 are completely unproven at this level. My opinion is that any incoming manager won't be building at team around them. 

 

 

Bannan is a good player, but he’s also one of those players that plays well against us and therefore fans fawn over him.  Over the past couple of seasons he hasn’t lifted Sheffield Wednesday to play off contention.  This season they’ve even accommodated an extra midfielder to try to give him more license.

LJ used to fawn over him, yet never did anything tactically to counter Bannan.  I could never understand that.  Other managers would and that’s why Bannan doesn’t dominate games against plenty of other teams, but did against us.

I don’t think he’ll ever be a City player, so I’m comfortable saying that I think he’d have been a big disappointment had he ever signed for us.

[Major Isewater]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m comfortable saying that I think he’d have been a big disappointment had he ever signed for us.

Like sooooo many others before him.

[Coppello]

On 31/07/2020 at 22:20, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd be very interested in @Coppello thoughts on this.

On the general issue, agree very much with @downendcity. Watertight rules, that all clubs are bound to- it's laughable that the points penalty is in 2020/21.

I'd make two observations. It came out in The Times on I think September 24th that the EFL were asking the club to explain why the differential in the Reporting Period vs the Land Registry.. 

I with less data and info at my disposal flagged this on here at least a month before, maybe sooner.

I'd have to trawl my post history but I'm sure I flagged on here ahead of it making the press.

Makes you wonder tbh.

I also believe that the EFL were possibly incorrect in pursuit of charges vs Chansiri, plus former employees Meire and Redgate at the same time as charges vs the club for FFP. Borne out of anger?

Irrespective, it is harder to prove these. Win the case against the club with a suitable punishment handed down and then pursue if you can be bothered, the individuals!

My views align very closely with @downendcity’s post. The whole thing is a shambles but I wouldn’t expect anything else from the EFL.