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Is it fair for us to want promotion?


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The ‘stated’ aim is promotion. In which case the next managerial appointment will have to be a significant one. If not then we know where we stand. If the new manager doesn’t achieve this in the first couple of seasons then fair enough, it ain’t easy getting out of this division.

A statement of intent is what I’m looking for.

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2 hours ago, REDOXO said:

SL thinks it’s fair. So if he does, I do! 
 

 

I don't know about that. If we are about 12th or 11th in the wages "table," then it would be fair to expect and demand a finish of 12th or 11th (barring exceptional difficulties). 

But we are never going to pay top three or four wages and so SL must ask for more from his head coach than might be reasonably expected, for the wages we pay (ie, 12th best payers but finish in the play offs). Like chaps like Wilder, Wagner and others have delivered.

LJ did not, when interviewed, after all, promise a like-for-like return ("we pay 12th best wages, I will deliver 12th in the league!") Only a fool would believe this.

No, LJ promised SL/MA the world. "Steve, it'll be: Railways through Africa, dams across the nile. Fleets of ocean greyhounds; majestic, self-amortizing* canalsPlantations of ripening tea. Plus the Prem in three windows, and the Europa League after that."

LJ will have promised more than might be fair to expect, because Steve will want more than is fair, for the dosh we have to play with. We have to do more than "fair" to get to the Prem from here.

 

* @Davefevs will fill you in on them sort of canals; it's complicated.

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6 hours ago, reddogkev said:

It seems to be generally accepted that promotion is the aim - and although I applaud the ambition, is it really fair?

A new manager is going to be judged on this yardstick, even though we haven't graced the top tier for roughly 40 years - that's hardly right for the new guy, is it?

After all, we've only come close to achieving promotion to the top flight once in the whole forty years!

Could it be off putting to some of the names being mentioned - some might respond along the lines of, 'Christ, you want me to do something that no one else has done since 1978?  Sure, I'll just go and turn this glass of water into wine whilst I'm at it.'

I'll be interest to read any thoughts on the subject.

 

Yes. It is normal to state what you want. Clubs frequently will go further and state how they will achieve their intent. 

Promotion for Bristol City is a wholly realistic aim. The past is irrelevant.

Doing better than Brentford is a wholly realistic aim. Identifying the how e.g. the team will attempt to excite and attack can also be a realistic desire for fans to buy into.

Bristol City have been mediocre and boring in many fans eyes for seasons at a cost of tens of millions. Aspire to be better than that? Yes of course.

Edited by Cowshed
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On the grounds that over the last 20 years, each of Reading, Cardiff, Swansea, Brighton, Huddersfield, Wigan, Blackpool, Stoke and Bournemouth have reached the premier league (all clubs that we’ve vied with in the lower leagues over that time period, and a good number of whom have had similar or slightly lower average attendances and / or less financial muscle than our owner and / or a longer spell outside the top flight than we’ve had since our last spell there), and on the grounds that Brentford might well join that list tomorrow night, we should absolutely be aiming for promotion to the top flight.

‘Expecting’ it might sound a bit entitled but if all of the clubs mentioned above can manage it, then why can’t we?

Edited by North London Red
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3 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

I don't know about that. If we are about 12th or 11th in the wages "table," then it would be fair to expect and demand a finish of 12th or 11th (barring exceptional difficulties). 

But we are never going to pay top three or four wages and so SL must ask for more from his head coach than might be reasonably expected, for the wages we pay (ie, 12th best payers but finish in the play offs). Like chaps like Wilder, Wagner and others have delivered.

LJ did not, when interviewed, after all, promise a like-for-like return ("we pay 12th best wages, I will deliver 12th in the league!") Only a fool would believe this.

No, LJ promised SL/MA the world. "Steve, it'll be: Railways through Africa, dams across the nile. Fleets of ocean greyhounds; majestic, self-amortizing* canalsPlantations of ripening tea. Plus the Prem in three windows, and the Europa League after that."

LJ will have promised more than might be fair to expect, because Steve will want more than is fair, for the dosh we have to play with. We have to do more than "fair" to get to the Prem from here.

 

* @Davefevs will fill you in on them sort of canals; it's complicated.

⬇️⬇️⬇️

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. It is normal to state what you want. Clubs frequently will go further and state how they will achieve their intent. 

Promotion for Bristol City is a wholly realistic aim. The past is irrelevant.

Doing better than Brentford is a wholly realistic aim. Identifying the how e.g. the team will attempt to excite and attack can also be a realistic desire for fans to buy into.

Bristol City have been mediocre and boring in many fans eyes for seasons at a cost of tens of millions. Aspire to be better than that? Yes of course.

Good points.  I’ve said often enough LJ accepted the objectives in his Balanced Scorecard...that was playoffs.

If he didn’t think they were fair, then he should’ve resigned.  I know I make it sound simple.  But I actually think it is that simple.  There’s being dangled a carrot, and there’s unrealistic targets.

As a club / Owner / CEO / manager we shouldn’t be “striving” for mediocrity, nor should we be saying “well we are doing better than Stoke or Boro”, because they have better budgets, or PPs, or whatever.  We should be comparing ourselves to:- Brentford, Millwall, Preston and Blackburn, who all finished above us with smaller budgets.  Forest actually have a very comparable budget to ourselves, so we finished 5 places lower than them too.

Thats what probably grates SL, he’s set a project, he believes playoffs are achievable, and clubs like Brentford are close to going up.

Of course there are mitigations, but those 9 games either side of the covid break forced SL’s hand.  The Championship does seem to feature winning and losing runs, but we’ve had too many under LJ and that erodes confidence. 

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I disagree with many on here.

I think that promotion is not a realistic aim, for the most simple of reasons:

  • Our playing squad is no stronger than 5-6 of those that will be in the league next season
  • It's likely that our coaching setup is no stronger than 5-6 of those in the league next season
  • Financially, we're weaker than most in this division.

We all want promotion, but do we deserve it? Absolutely not. The danger of incremental improvements year-on-year is that it takes one slip-up to set the club back a year or two. We've had that slip-up, and on our current course it's likely that it'll be at least another season before we're in the same position we were in last season. Obviously, another slip-up and we're a few years behind again.

I'm optimistic, but that's all I am. If we get promotion, it'll be mostly luck.

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I think if you're a club who have placed in the top 12 for the last few seasons, in a very tight league, then top 6 has to be the aim. And once you're in the top 6 anything can happen. If you're just saying "we would quite like to just remain in upper middle of the table for a bit please" then you have no place leading a sports team.

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14 hours ago, Bristolisredd said:

What a stupid post 

Sorry you will have to be a tad more specific, the above statement could on reflection account for at least 80% of posts on OTIB.

Fortunately the other 20% indicate they know more about football than Sir Alex and could probably get us promoted whilst holding down a full time job.. 

Edited by Abraham Romanovich
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11 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Yes. It is normal to state what you want. Clubs frequently will go further and state how they will achieve their intent. 

Promotion for Bristol City is a wholly realistic aim. The past is irrelevant.

Doing better than Brentford is a wholly realistic aim. Identifying the how e.g. the team will attempt to excite and attack can also be a realistic desire for fans to buy into.

Bristol City have been mediocre and boring in many fans eyes for seasons at a cost of tens of millions. Aspire to be better than that? Yes of course.

Good post, Cowshed, appreciate your comments.

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What is achieved by limiting yourself to what is "fair?"

Mr. Hillary, is it fair to want to get to the top of that hill, in this weather? Come back inside and have a hot chocolate. 

Mr Bannister, is it fair to want to run a mile in less than four minutes? Come on, let's be reasonable.

Mr. Brunel, you want to build a bridge across there? This is Bristol, mate. Let's go to the pub and ferget it.

Etc, etc.

 

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If we appoint Holden then this part of Bristol Sport stinks of a lack of ambition.

Don't think we will be anywhere near the top 6 next season, unless a top manager is brought in, even then a tough ask.

I'm starting to think those that have said to me that SL is only in it for the rugby I will start to actually believe them.

Got absolutely no faith in the board or ownership for that matter.

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19 hours ago, reddogkev said:

It seems to be generally accepted that promotion is the aim - and although I applaud the ambition, is it really fair?

A new manager is going to be judged on this yardstick, even though we haven't graced the top tier for roughly 40 years - that's hardly right for the new guy, is it?

After all, we've only come close to achieving promotion to the top flight once in the whole forty years!

Could it be off putting to some of the names being mentioned - some might respond along the lines of, 'Christ, you want me to do something that no one else has done since 1978?  Sure, I'll just go and turn this glass of water into wine whilst I'm at it.'

I'll be interest to read any thoughts on the subject.

 

The aim of promotion gives the likes of Hughton the right to ask for the £1m a year salary, or a bloody big bonus!

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I think if we cannot compete financially, and money doesn’t buy success but it helps, then we have to try another way. We have to bring on talent and keep it for ourselves and be better than others that way.

Obviously that’s easier said than done, especially when players want Premiership football ( or a better chance of getting it) instantly rather than waiting to achieve it with us. 

So we have three options. Spend better if not bigger. Get promoted with what we have or stay as we are, and of course hope to avoid relegation.

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