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Dean Holden (Merged)


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If we appoint Holden I will...   

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4 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Yes it’s preferable of course it is.... but for whatever reason that looks unlikely. People act on here that the ONLY reason is because it’s a cheap option. I would love to know how people know this as fact and won’t hear any other possibility

Of course people don't know that Holden will be a rubbish appointment. It's impossible to know either way. But what is becoming tedious is reading posts along the lines of Parker/Frank/x/y/z was once an assistant manger and that worked out...so Dean Holden will...without the poster having taken the time to even google their track records, compare them to Dean Holden's and realise where the differences lie.

The reasons folk have for feeling Holden would be a poor choice are many and varied, and considered in most cases, and all on this thread for anyone who cares to read them.

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8 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Thats not what people are saying though. The whole point is no experience in a manager = failure

What people are saying is:

Even with a 'cheap option' we could and should do better than Holden.

Even with a Manager / Coach with little or no experience would be better than Holden.

Even with or without a 5 week search for a LJ's replacement. We could and should do better than Holden.

 

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1 minute ago, GTFABM said:

No offence taken because i couldn’t care less. Does it bug you because it’s true and it goes against the arguments being made and how outraged people are?

Good cos I seriously don't mean to be argumentative. 

Let's put it this way:

⬇️

When throwing people into a job at a high level, people with experience and a proven track record succeed more often than people with limited experience and no track record.

⬆️

Do you disagree with that statement?

Does experience and knowledge give you a better chance of success?

 

Just pointing out exceptions to the rule doesn't stop the rule being the most rational approach. 

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1 minute ago, supercidered said:

What people are saying is:

Even with a 'cheap option' we could and should do better than Holden.

Even with a Manager / Coach with little or no experience would be better than Holden.

Even with or without a 5 week search for a LJ's replacement. We could and should do better than Holden.

 

I am going to sound really childish now but.... can i have the league standings for next season because you already know what happens. 

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2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Not when we’ve been linked with high profile and proven names, you can totally understand why fans are furious.

We also have an appalling track record with internal appointments so it’s no wonder people are dubious.

I think it would be a terrible choice to appoint Holden, partly for the anger from the fans.

As someone else pointed out Joe Jordan was an internal appointment and got us promoted at the first attempt.

On the flip side we've appointed 'proven' managers like Coppell, So'D, Denys Smith who've been disasters. You don't have any idea what you've got until at least ten games have been played, it's unfair to write anyone off before they've even got the job.

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Just now, mozo said:

Good cos I seriously don't mean to be argumentative. 

Let's put it this way:

⬇️

When throwing people into a job at a high level, people with experience and a proven track record succeed more often than people with limited experience and no track record.

⬆️

Do you disagree with that statement?

Does experience and knowledge give you a better chance of success?

 

Just pointing out exceptions to the rule doesn't stop the rule being the most rational approach. 

Agree. But holden has done all the required coaching badges etc same as any manager. I don’t want to come across as a happy clapper or whatever people on here call them, but i refuse to write off a manager purely because he isn’t who i would want as 1st choice (for the record i wanted cook)

1 minute ago, ashton_fan said:

As someone else pointed out Joe Jordan was an internal appointment and got us promoted at the first attempt.

On the flip side we've appointed 'proven' managers like Coppell, So'D, Denys Smith who've been disasters. You don't have any idea what you've got until at least ten games have been played, it's unfair to write anyone off before they've even got the job.

Said in a much better way than i could. Agree 100%

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Just now, GTFABM said:

Agree. But holden has done all the required coaching badges etc same as any manager. I don’t want to come across as a happy clapper or whatever people on here call them, but i refuse to write off a manager purely because he isn’t who i would want as 1st choice (for the record i wanted cook)

No and you're absolutely right that nobody should write him off. He might be the next Pep (although nothing so far suggests he has any special quality).

But at the same time, the outrage is justified of people want the club to give us the best chance of success. 

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Just now, ashton_fan said:

As someone else pointed out Joe Jordan was an internal appointment and got us promoted at the first attempt.

On the flip side we've appointed 'proven' managers like Coppell, So'D, Denys Smith who've been disasters. You don't have any idea what you've got until at least ten games have been played, it's unfair to write anyone off before they've even got the job.

...now we have Joe Jordan (again) - google Joe Jordan's track record prior to becoming player manager at City (in a different era) and compare that to Dean Holden - you'll see the difference between a footballing giant and a journeyman.

Steve Lansdown has a poor record of left-field managerial choices. Its unsurprising if his judgement is doubted.

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21 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Hasn’t Scott Parker just got promoted with Fulham in his 1st full season as manager? Experience/cheap option is not always a bad thing. 

Scott Parker had more experience as a footballer and McDonalds adverts. 

He also trained to be a coach in Tottenhams set up under Poch, so I would say he had a good enough grounding to be a manager. 

Also as been said his team was full of talent that should of walked this league 

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1 minute ago, supercidered said:

Good grief !

 

I agree it’s rediculous but everyone is already saying how this is 100% a failure when it’s simply not. I would say the majority did not want cotterill on reputation? Is that fair? And everyone was buzzing with coppell? Just 2 reasons fans have no clue and should have zero say in who the club appoint

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2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

...now we have Joe Jordan (again) - google Joe Jordan's track record prior to becoming player manager at City (in a different era) and compare that to Dean Holden - you'll see the difference between a footballing giant and a journeyman.

Steve Lansdown has a poor record of left-field managerial choices. Its unsurprising if his judgement is doubted.

Ok so by that theory alan shearer should Of been top tier as a manager? And aresene wenger should have been piss poor? It’s not that simple

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3 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

I agree it’s rediculous but everyone is already saying how this is 100% a failure when it’s simply not. I would say the majority did not want cotterill on reputation? Is that fair? And everyone was buzzing with coppell? Just 2 reasons fans have no clue and should have zero say in who the club appoint

I refer my honourable friend to the post from 11 minutes ago.

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10 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

As someone else pointed out Joe Jordan was an internal appointment and got us promoted at the first attempt.

On the flip side we've appointed 'proven' managers like Coppell, So'D, Denys Smith who've been disasters. You don't have any idea what you've got until at least ten games have been played, it's unfair to write anyone off before they've even got the job.

I should’ve specified, internal appointments under the current board. I’m not ‘writing Holden off’ - my gut feeling is it’s a bad appointment but I hope he proves me wrong. He might well do.

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1 minute ago, Red Exile said:

...now we have Joe Jordan (again) - google Joe Jordan's track record prior to becoming player manager at City (in a different era) and compare that to Dean Holden - you'll see the difference between a footballing giant and a journeyman.

Steve Lansdown has a poor record of left-field managerial choices. Its unsurprising if his judgement is doubted.

The playing career of a coach has little effect on their coaching ability, Eddie Howe wasn't anything special as a player but he's a top coach, Bobby Charlton was one of England's best ever players but he couldn't manage at 2nd tier level.

Roy Hodgson (who used to manage us in the 80s) was nothing as a player but again he's a top coach. When JJ was appointed he had no experience as a manager, less than Dean Holden

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2 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Ok so by that theory alan shearer should Of been top tier as a manager? And aresene wenger should have been piss poor? It’s not that simple

I'm really sorry...where to start? Alan Shearer was a terrible managerial appointment at Newcastle, should never have taken the job. Arsene Wenger, like Thomas Frank, after a modest career specialised in coaching...and was a genius. Is it possible that Dean Holden will be another Wenger - I guess so, yes - is it likely he will be? - not really. 

Chris Hughton on the other hand...

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Appointing Holden is like shooting from the halfway line. Yes it might work out great, and you can point to examples of it working before, but the probability is that it won't work out. Better to pass it to an attacker who knows what they're doing. (At least that's always what I do in 6 a side!)

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4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

The playing career of a coach has little effect on their coaching ability, Eddie Howe wasn't anything special as a player but he's a top coach, Bobby Charlton was one of England's best ever players but he couldn't manage at 2nd tier level.

Roy Hodgson (who used to manage us in the 80s) was nothing as a player but again he's a top coach. When JJ was appointed he had no experience as a manager, less than Dean Holden

I disagree for reasons stated above.

But fine, it's possible that Dean Holden could be the greatest City manager of all time...if that's what you want to believe it's fine by me.

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6 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

The playing career of a coach has little effect on their coaching ability, Eddie Howe wasn't anything special as a player but he's a top coach, Bobby Charlton was one of England's best ever players but he couldn't manage at 2nd tier level.

Roy Hodgson (who used to manage us in the 80s) was nothing as a player but again he's a top coach. When JJ was appointed he had no experience as a manager, less than Dean Holden

Which brings us to a good question: what metric should the board use to judge whether Holden has the ability to be as good a gaffer as Hughton has already proved himself to be?

If we disregard playing career, managerial experience and track record, what helps us know he's the one?

Is it just a punt? Intuition? His powers of persuasion? His popularity?

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1 minute ago, mozo said:

Which brings us to a good question: what metric should the board use to judge whether Holden has the ability to be as good a gaffer as Hughton has already proved himself to be?

If we disregard playing career, managerial experience and track record, what helps us know he's the one?

Is it just a punt? Intuition? His powers of persuasion? His popularity?

His salary requirements

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37 minutes ago, GTFABM said:

Thats not what people are saying though. The whole point is no experience in a manager = failure

Parker has played at a higher level than Holden ever has and probably gets a lot more respect but look at the tools at his disposal.

Holdens never played above league 1 level? 

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3 hours ago, Ashton Yate said:

Has anyone considered that with Gregor's tweet about "sorting out the backroom staff" and Tins and Scotty removing themselves from Twitter, that maybe it could be Hughton coming in with a completely new backroom staff and Tins/Scotty may actually be on their way out? Would certainly explain why the appointment has taken so long, if they have had to negotiate with not only Hughton, but his new backroom staff, along with arranging settlements for the existing staff. Tins/Scotty may have been told to stay off Twitter for legal reasons too. Just a thought.

Can’t see how any new coach would affect Scotty Murray. He’s just the kit man which is hardly a high profile position. New coaches don’t usually bring their kit man with them 

 

Unless - Scotty is Holden’s new  assistant. Heaven help us 

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5 minutes ago, mozo said:

Which brings us to a good question: what metric should the board use to judge whether Holden has the ability to be as good a gaffer as Hughton has already proved himself to be?

If we disregard playing career, managerial experience and track record, what helps us know he's the one?

Is it just a punt? Intuition? His powers of persuasion? His popularity?

The fact no other manager wanted to work within the restraints of the current regime, also the fact that Holden will be happy with a much smaller salary than Hughton. In traditional Bristol City fashion it will be the cheap un ambitious option.

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5 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

Can’t see how any new coach would affect Scotty Murray. He’s just the kit man which is hardly a high profile position. New coaches don’t usually bring their kit man with them 

 

Unless - Scotty is Holden’s new  assistant. Heaven help us 

New assistant? I think you mean new CEO. 

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10 minutes ago, Street red said:

Parker has played at a higher level than Holden ever has and probably gets a lot more respect but look at the tools at his disposal.

Holdens never played above league 1 level? 

Ok sol campbell? Tony adams? John Barnes? I could go on, the level you played at should hardly even come into the conversation when appointing a manager

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33 minutes ago, mozo said:

Which brings us to a good question: what metric should the board use to judge whether Holden has the ability to be as good a gaffer as Hughton has already proved himself to be?

If we disregard playing career, managerial experience and track record, what helps us know he's the one?

Is it just a punt? Intuition? His powers of persuasion? His popularity?

Hes a nice guy loved by all at ashtongate

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29 minutes ago, bris red said:

The fact no other manager wanted to work within the restraints of the current regime, also the fact that Holden will be happy with a much smaller salary than Hughton. In traditional Bristol City fashion it will be the cheap un ambitious option.

So if we paid Holden twice as much, would that make him acceptable to you?

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32 minutes ago, bris red said:

The fact no other manager wanted to work within the restraints of the current regime, also the fact that Holden will be happy with a much smaller salary than Hughton. In traditional Bristol City fashion it will be the cheap un ambitious option.

I prefer the term affordable. Or if COVID gets messy, less unaffordable.

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