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Dean Holden (Merged)


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If we appoint Holden I will...   

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39 minutes ago, Chappers said:

The pandemic response has changed significantly. When Lee was sacked it was slowly opening up the economy, trials of spectators at sport and ‘All over by Christmas’. Last week it changed to no further relaxation, sport trials postponed and looking for trade offs to open schools. They are also taking second spike more seriously and being a lot more cautious. 
This season is now looking very uncertain financially, and it may even be that a number of Championship clubs cannot afford to play behind closed door for too long. The appointment may well be dictated by events, caution and not wanting any kind of hefty long term financial commitment until there is some certainty for next season.

Hahaha what absolute rubbish. What is it with you people - going to the ends of the earth to defend every single decision this club makes?!?!

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2 minutes ago, E.G.Red said:

 

When SL made his comments the full impact of COVID hadn’t been fully realised. The losses both on and off the field have severely impacted the finances of the club. Not only crowds at football & the revenue from refreshments etc but the losses from the concerts and other corporate functions. Also no doubt SLs own finances have been impacted. Look at Arsenal who are making 53 staff redundant do you think Bristol City will be immune from the financial wake up call, and I think this may have an impact on the final choice of manager unless the salary is relatively low and then you get bonuses for top 6 & automatic promotion.

If anything, I expect SL's fortunes have probably increased as he is astute enough to have bought the market due to the pouring of unlimited (yes, that is unlimited) funds into the Dow Jones by the Fed who have facilitated the recovery from 19k to 26K by basically buying corporate America. This is the only reason for the recovery as America has no economy to speak of at the mo. He will  probably also have put his money in gold and silver, the traditional safe havens which have done well...

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7 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

As someone else pointed out Joe Jordan was an internal appointment and got us promoted at the first attempt.

On the flip side we've appointed 'proven' managers like Coppell, So'D, Denys Smith who've been disasters. You don't have any idea what you've got until at least ten games have been played, it's unfair to write anyone off before they've even got the job.

I loved Big Joe, but he did NOT get us promoted at the first attempt.

He took over and won his first 6 or 7 games to get us into the play-offs, in which we lost the final in a replay.

The next season he got us to the League Cup semi finals when still in the third division. But once we were knocked out by Forest we didn't pull up any trees in the league and a few people were actually calling for his head.

The next season was the promotion season, when he had assembled the most exciting team that I have ever watched at AG (and a few other grounds).

Unfortunately we finished second to some team or other that were destined to drop out of the league at one point.

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18 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Fair comment @Mr Popodopolous But whilst that is not in place we need to get a top HC in place.

Cook, Hughton or Jokanovic IMO. A problem though might be if salary caps kick in after appointment when we've made hypothetical big promises they surely won't like that! Not our fault but out of our hands.

Could the club be waiting for the financial landscape next season (FFP amendment or otherwise, wage cap or something else) to be established before settling on a final appointment.

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9 minutes ago, bris red said:

Hahaha what absolute rubbish. What is it with you people - going to the ends of the earth to defend every single decision this club makes?!?!

What, as distinct from ‘you people’ using any excuse to belittle and ridicule the club that you’re supposed to support?  Hahaha.

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1 minute ago, Superjack said:

I loved Big Joe, but he did NOT get us promoted at the first attempt.

He took over and won his first 6 or 7 games to get us into the play-offs, in which we lost the final in a replay.

The next season he got us to the League Cup semi finals when still in the third division. But once we were knocked out by Forest we didn't pull up any trees in the league and a few people were actually calling for his head.

The next season was the promotion season, when he had assembled the most exciting team that I have ever watched at AG (and a few other grounds).

Unfortunately we finished second to some team or other that were destined to drop out of the league at one point.

Joe made a lot of mistakes in his first season.  Some very dodgy signings (Scott McGarvey, Gary Stanley...) and some very odd tactics.  He then pulled a rabbit out of the hat in March by swapping Carl Shutt for Bob Taylor, and the rest, as they say, is history.  That first season had City fans pulling their hair out though.

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5 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Joe made a lot of mistakes in his first season.  Some very dodgy signings (Scott McGarvey, Gary Stanley...) and some very odd tactics.  He then pulled a rabbit out of the hat in March by swapping Carl Shutt for Bob Taylor, and the rest, as they say, is history.  That first season had City fans pulling their hair out though.

And putting Dave Rennie with Gary Shelton as his two central midfielders. Somewhere around October if my memory is correct.

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6 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

And putting Dave Rennie with Gary Shelton as his two central midfielders. Somewhere around October if my memory is correct.

He signed David Rennie in the summer after his first season (along with Dave Smith) and played him in central midfield straight away, alongside a signing from Cardiff, Paul Wimbleton.  Shelts played wide in the first few games, but Wimbleton didn’t live up to his promise (he’d played a blinder for Cardiff against us the previous season) and was dropped after a dozen games.  Shelts was then moved into the centre, and the side clicked and went on a hell of a run beyond Christmas, culminating in the memorable 4-0 victory at St Andrews against a Birmingham City side relegated the previous season and expected to win the division with ease,

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43 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Utter nonsense.

Covid will affect all clubs BUT there is every chance that FFP will be amended short term.

We have the richest Englishman that owns a football club, do you really think that a mangers salary will be an issue?

Particulary after his comments when LJ was sacked.

Two proposals I’ve seen.

1. UEFA - 19/20 is not the end of the 3 year cycle, so 20/21 becomes a 4 year cycle 17/18 to 20/21.  UEFA’s limits are more stringent that the EFL and PL, so even if we went to a 4 year cycle we are talking £52m over 4 years (rather than £39m over 3 years).  Bearing in mind revenues for both 19/20 and 20/21 are going to be affected by covid, I don’t think anything can be construed as relaxing the rules.

2. EFL Salary Cap - being voted for / against on Friday.  Championship is proposing £18m salary cap and 25 man squad.  Lots of conditions re existing contracts, but it is an attempt to lessen the benefit of parachute payments.

38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..

Although another way of looking at it is that top or traditionally top managers at this level may find work at this level increasingly harder to come by, what with a combination of new club structures, FFP, possible salary caps and of course Covid.

If a new manager wants the final say hire manager, manager signs players for good money, results don't come and manager sacked. Rinse and repeat!

This doesn't fit with regulations such as FFP, salary caps or just the upheaval and instability of the old ways- how can it? Interesting to see how this develops during the coming years.

A salary cap @ScottishRed this is possible too. This would act as a significant spike on ambition/expenditure if introduced in 2020/21 to replace FFP.

This is still a live issue, which way will the vote go I wonder.

I read somewhere it’s a simple yes/no vote too, but unsure if that’s division by division, and whether it’s 2/3rds majority needed.  I don’t think Champ or Lg1 will vote it in, as there are some big hitters (relatively speaking) in Lg1 now.

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The fact people are so overly annoyed about this actually makes me want it to happen. Hearing grown men so desperate for a ‘big name’ manager. Get a life. It’s really not that important. I’ll be watching city home and away for the laughs and the beers. I couldn’t really give a flying **** who our manger is 

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1 hour ago, Chappers said:

The pandemic response has changed significantly. When Lee was sacked it was slowly opening up the economy, trials of spectators at sport and ‘All over by Christmas’. Last week it changed to no further relaxation, sport trials postponed and looking for trade offs to open schools. They are also taking second spike more seriously and being a lot more cautious. 
This season is now looking very uncertain financially, and it may even be that a number of Championship clubs cannot afford to play behind closed door for too long. The appointment may well be dictated by events, caution and not wanting any kind of hefty long term financial commitment until there is some certainty for next season.

 

Has the Pandemic response really changed enough though since SL's radio interview to justify such a complete 360 of management strategy? (if true) Yes there have been spikes but that will have been expected as society started to move again. 

The road ahead will pose challenges but the reality is we will have to learn to live with Covid-19 and adapt to protect the vulnerable but also protect the economy & start consuming again.

The volume of redundancies out there is frightening & feel for anyone affected but its going to get worse with some business using the pandemic as an opportunity to make their businesses leaner even if they don't need to - so the government have to be looking to open up as much business as they can including sports events.

The future is living with the virus & finding way to survive without shutting down completely and we're all going to have to learn to adapt our lifestyles. Those at greatest risk will likely have to take the most caution.

 

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I agree Red Alert, the virus hasn’t changed much....but the fact we are rumoured to be chasing Hughton makes the covid scenario a bit of an excuse if we appoint Holden.

At least half of Championship clubs are gonna be under significant budget constraints (including ourselves).  Personally I wouldn’t be after the cheapest manager wage wise.  I’d be looking at the best manager who can recruit on a budget and get the best out of them.  Better to spend an extra £0.5m on a manager than waste several £m on crap players.  I know that’s not easy, but the likes of Cook and Neil fall into that category, more than Hughton.

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2 hours ago, Chappers said:

The pandemic response has changed significantly. When Lee was sacked it was slowly opening up the economy, trials of spectators at sport and ‘All over by Christmas’. Last week it changed to no further relaxation, sport trials postponed and looking for trade offs to open schools. They are also taking second spike more seriously and being a lot more cautious. 
This season is now looking very uncertain financially, and it may even be that a number of Championship clubs cannot afford to play behind closed door for too long. The appointment may well be dictated by events, caution and not wanting any kind of hefty long term financial commitment until there is some certainty for next season.

Oh dear. Really searching for excuses there chappers. Being a billionaire, extremely successful financial expert , I think we can all assume he had all basis covered. There’s absolutely nothing feasible that can explain this climb down . 

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40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I agree Red Alert, the virus hasn’t changed much....but the fact we are rumoured to be chasing Hughton makes the covid scenario a bit of an excuse if we appoint Holden.

At least half of Championship clubs are gonna be under significant budget constraints (including ourselves).  Personally I wouldn’t be after the cheapest manager wage wise.  I’d be looking at the best manager who can recruit on a budget and get the best out of them.  Better to spend an extra £0.5m on a manager than waste several £m on crap players.  I know that’s not easy, but the likes of Cook and Neil fall into that category, more than Hughton.

Totally agree. The more I think about it Alex Neil would be perfect for us but would he work under Ashton. Probably not. Which is why we’ll end up with Holden.

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21 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

Totally agree. The more I think about it Alex Neil would be perfect for us but would he work under Ashton. Probably not. Which is why we’ll end up with Holden.

Any reason you say this? He’s used to having players sold regularly and doesn’t get much of an option who to bring in because of finances, moving to us he essentially works the same system with a higher budget and players Preston can’t afford 

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5 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Yeah. I'm increasingly wondering if MA / JL went into the interviews, wide eyed and bushy tailed showing off the club, what they've put in place, and setting out their red lines for what they see as a well run and modern club.

A load of managers applied, saw the above, and basically baulked or weren't interested as a result.

The club now either have to appoint the one man they know will slot in to exactly what they want - Holden, or take it on the chin, and go back tail between their legs to a previous candidate who wasn't as enamoured by the Mark Ashton Bristol City show and agree to make some serious concessions in order to get them.

Tough choice! Stuck between a rock and a hard place perhaps.

I said before SL regarded BCFC as his own little toy (So many of you had a spare aubergine handy.)

But it would seem he still does, so I agree 100% with you.

The interview process consisted of SL shouting "JUMP!" without warning to the candidate.

MA then asked "how high?" to JL.

JL measured the height.

 

Holden is currently winning.

Hughton might have another go, but his hips a bit sore, and Gerrard via Wasserman told SL he'd do a "DJ intro" on him if he pulled that crap!

 

A couple of hopeful sycophants are waiting for another go. Cook might,Flynn will, but Dean "same as it ever was"  Holden is currently leading the "jumps the highest when told to"  interview test.

 

 

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3 hours ago, E.G.Red said:

When SL made his comments the full impact of COVID hadn’t been fully realised. The losses both on and off the field have severely impacted the finances of the club. Not only crowds at football & the revenue from refreshments etc but the losses from the concerts and other corporate functions.

SL made his comments on July 9th, FOUR MONTHS after the start of the lockdown to football. If anyone thinks an astute finance expert like SL after four months hadn't already established sensitivity analysis for worst case scenarios, they really are implying astounding levels of SL ineptitude in the rush, of all things, to defend him!

For half that time he didn't even have certainty the season would return nor the mechanism the club employed  using Robins TV to retain booked revenue. So the position on July 9th was better than the worst COVID impact SL must have already contemplated and therefore he was quite prepared when he talked LJ's replacement.

I have no issue with people preaching financial prudence, but there is no basis to give SL a pass on this, if we appoint Holden his comments were pure lip service - he claims an objective but always reverts to type to hire inexperienced people to achieve it. It's not even a money issue as he'll throw signings at them to make it work.

And in regard to "losses on and off the field", it is the Chief Executive of the organisation's job to ensure those impacts are fully costed and a new projection is issued. From lockdown to SL's comments MA earned at least £117k (on 2018 figures, with his voluntary 20% cut) - if SL didn't have clear figures, what is he paying MA for?

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15 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It’s a silly straw man argument. No one is saying it’s impossible, just far more likely with a proven operator like Hughton.

Also, Fulham have a much stronger squad with whom you’d expect promotion.

Agree.

 

If you were going for surgery and you had the choice of 2 sugeons.

1 is older, regarded by everyone you speak to as a safe pair of hands, been there done it etc

1 is younger and regarded as someone who will make a great surgeon one day, but currently lacking experience.

 

Why one do you place your trust in?

 

Same arguements as here.  But ultimateley I would suspect the majority would choose the experienced surgeon.  The one with the track record.

Because history tends to repeat itself.

 

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Everyone talking about blaming Covid for the reason to look at Holden rather than others is clutching. 

At the moment the government have halted the removal of restrictions on some sort of crowds by 2 weeks not 2 months. So at the moment sport is only 2 weeks behind schedule. 


It has also been rumoured that even if they allow fans back it will be reduced numbers. This has been talked about for months. At restricted capacity we have already sold ST that cover that. So in that respect nothing has changed since June to now. 
 

Until the crowds are allowed back the clubs will offer their live streams. These live streams selling to the UK also had people buying £10 viewings who would not of gone a game in the first place. I know a few who done this themselves. Which increases some revenue to the club.  

All football managers would know themselves about Covid, it has been on the news everyday. They themselves would know that their spending power will be reduced so would lower their expectations. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, Bobbie said:

The fact people are so overly annoyed about this actually makes me want it to happen. Hearing grown men so desperate for a ‘big name’ manager. Get a life. It’s really not that important. I’ll be watching city home and away for the laughs and the beers. I couldn’t really give a flying **** who our manger is 

You’re missing the point a bit, it is not necessarily a ‘  big name ‘ manager that people crave but a sign that the club really want promotion to the Prem as they said.

Appointing the number two of a head coach who ultimately ‘ couldn’t get us over the line ‘ - Steve Lansdown,  does not look like that sign.

It looks more like a huge missed opportunity and a kick in the teeth for those who believed. 

The  communication from the club is very poor and alienating the supporters and quite possibly the players and staff at the club.

BCFC can do nothing about the pandemic and the disastrous drop in revenue but they can do something about managing expectations honestly. 

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5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

You’re missing the point a bit, it is not necessarily a ‘  big name ‘ manager that people crave but a sign that the club really want promotion to the Prem as they said.

Appointing the number two of a head coach who ultimately ‘ couldn’t get us over the line ‘ - Steve Lansdown,  does not look like that sign.

It looks more like a huge missed opportunity and a kick in the teeth for those who believed. 

The  communication from the club is very poor and alienating the supporters and quite possibly the players and staff at the club.

BCFC can do nothing about the pandemic and the disastrous drop in revenue but they can do something about managing expectations honestly. 

Agree totally Major.

Would also add that there are players (Kory, Williams) who are waiting to be informed if they get a new contract?

There are players with 1 year left on their contract (Fam and Elisason) who are big players and could generate big money for the club.  Do you keep or sell?  Will they only sign once they know the new manager?

Then who to sign in the short window?  Will a new manager attract some players, will some previously interested players now pass once the manager is known?

Finally, there is the small matter of pre season training.   Would seem very odd (given MAs previous statements) to not have a new manager in place when training resumes.

All in all kinda feels that City will be playing catch up this season

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31 minutes ago, soultrader said:

Agree.

 

If you were going for surgery and you had the choice of 2 sugeons.

1 is older, regarded by everyone you speak to as a safe pair of hands, been there done it etc

1 is younger and regarded as someone who will make a great surgeon one day, but currently lacking experience.

 

Why one do you place your trust in?

 

Same arguements as here.  But ultimateley I would suspect the majority would choose the experienced surgeon.  The one with the track record.

Because history tends to repeat itself.

 

Like we did with Johnson, he was supposed to bright young manager who would take us places, though I, as was other people, never convinced by him, tried to be too clever, never knew best formation, team or tactics, when he got it right, it was because he stumbled on by chance, had no choice because of injuries.I came away from his games in charge, more often than not, not with the feeling of wow what a performance, but with a feeling of that was only ok, or we scraped by in that.

Feel it would be same under Holden, maybe bright manager, who could take us places in the future, but do we need a maybe? Or do we need to reduce the odds.After the recent times we’ve all had, we all need a lift and something positive, If Holden was put in charge, I would certainly be tempted to put a bet on, that he would be gone in a year.

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3 minutes ago, soultrader said:

Agree totally Major.

Would also add that there are players (Kory, Williams) who are waiting to be informed if they get a new contract?

There are players with 1 year left on their contract (Fam and Elisason) who are big players and could generate big money for the club.  Do you keep or sell?  Will they only sign once they know the new manager?

Then who to sign in the short window?  Will a new manager attract some players, will some previously interested players now pass once the manager is known?

Finally, there is the small matter of pre season training.   Would seem very odd (given MAs previous statements) to not have a new manager in place when training resumes.

All in all kinda feels that City will be playing catch up this season

I agree with most of that but short window? It's open for another two months. Very unsettling to think that Fammy and Nic could be sold as late as October 16th.

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3 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

If this actually happens I can’t even imagine the uproar it will cause, think there will be more then just bedsheets up on the fence 

You don’t mean ... duvets???

Actually, for all,the angst and torment on this forum, I think you’ll find that the average City fan will get get on with life, accept the fact of whatever appointment is made, and see how things turn out.  In the last few years people have had to accept Trump, Brexit, Johnson and Coronavirus; I’m sure Bristol City fans can cope with a disappointing managerial appointment without collectively opening a vein.  There are a lot worse things that could be happening.

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