Dean Holden (Merged)

[Bat Fastard]

15 minutes ago, lenred said:

Oh come on. You surely cannot believe that. 

OK lets examine this: Firstly, not a single person on this forum has a clue what was in the job specification. It might have been unsuitable for an experienced and well known old style manager, who would prefer to buy success with other peoples money. If that ends in failure he would go to pastures new and leave a mess behind for the next chap to try to get rid of unwanted players - all of whom might be blocking progress for our young stars. Experienced big name types may want to buy success because they feel that that is the best way to get their promotion bonus - but may be a kick in the teeth to the squad we already have, who seem to really like Dean Holden. If it is him he may be a popular choice with the existing squad who might otherwise have faced an uncertain future. Of course I am just guessing about all this - but it makes as much sense as some of the more negative bilge spewed on this forum.

The board are smart, experienced and well meaning people, who understand the challenges of running a football club - in terms of players and staff as well as finances. I have faith that they will be better informed than many of the rather hysterical commentators on these subjects.  If they select Dean Holden or anyone else, I will give them my full support, because whatever I think, that is the most pragmatic course of action.

[Monkeh]

1 hour ago, Red Exile said:

I'd be amazed if many blamed Dean Holden for taking the job.

But if anger isn't expressed now when exactly is is ok to be angry? We've only just got rid of one managerial experiment...it seems to me to be expecting a lot for supporters to placidly go along with another apprentice, when we've been in discussions with master craftsmen.

No anger towards holden, my anger is aimed at jon lansdown and Mark ashton,

They have overseen two shambles of a transfer window where our dicking about cost us players

It would appear the same has now happened with our pursuits of a manager

Both should stand down 

[And Its Smith]

Who wants Lee back?  Yes please 

[lenred]

8 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It concerns me that you were still LJ in until the very end and now you’ve written that first sentence that you cannot possibly believe. 

There were rumours on here a while back that the club planted people on this forum to tow the party line and I’m struggling to see any other reason for you having suggested Holden would be the right choice. 
 

You must be able to see that the only reason he’d be appointed would be to be a yes man. 

 

2 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The club do have people contributing on this forum. 100% fact.

Jesus.  Funny really, if it wasn’t so sad and desperate.  

[supercidered]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

OK lets examine this: Firstly, not a single person on this forum has a clue what was in the job specification. It might have been unsuitable for an experienced and well known old style manager, who would prefer to buy success with other peoples money. If that ends in failure he would go to pastures new and leave a mess behind for the next chap to try to get rid of unwanted players - all of whom might be blocking progress for our young stars. Experienced big name types may want to buy success because they feel that that is the best way to get their promotion bonus - but may be a kick in the teeth to the squad we already have, who seem to really like Dean Holden. If it is him he may be a popular choice with the existing squad who might otherwise have faced an uncertain future. Of course I am just guessing about all this - but it makes as much sense as some of the more negative bilge spewed on this forum.

The board are smart, experienced and well meaning people, who understand the challenges of running a football club - in terms of players and staff as well as finances. I have faith that they will be better informed than many of the rather hysterical commentators on these subjects.  If they select Dean Holden or anyone else, I will give them my full support, because whatever I think, that is the most pragmatic course of action.

I will have a few pints of what you've been on please!

[Slacker]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

Who wants Lee back?  Yes please 

No thanks.

[italian dave]

5 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It concerns me that you were still LJ in until the very end and now you’ve written that first sentence that you cannot possibly believe. 

There were rumours on here a while back that the club planted people on this forum to tow the party line and I’m struggling to see any other reason for you having suggested Holden would be the right choice. 
 

You must be able to see that the only reason he’d be appointed would be to be a yes man. 

The first sentence says that if Holden is appointed it's because the Board believe he's the best choice. Are you saying you don't believe that? That the Board would deliberately appoint someone other than the person they think is the best choice? 

You may not like the appointment, you may not think it's the best choice, you may think the reason the board think as they d is because he'd be a 'yes' man, but that's not the point.

I've avoided contributing to this thread til now because it reminds me of some kind of weird self flagellation ritual, where all the pleasure some people used to derive from lambasting LJ each week somehow has to replaced, and there's nothing else to do that work ourselves up into a frenzy about something that we know nothing about and that may or nay not happen. 

[BcfcDuncs]

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

OK lets examine this: Firstly, not a single person on this forum has a clue what was in the job specification. It might have been unsuitable for an experienced and well known old style manager, who would prefer to buy success with other peoples money. If that ends in failure he would go to pastures new and leave a mess behind for the next chap to try to get rid of unwanted players - all of whom might be blocking progress for our young stars. Experienced big name types may want to buy success because they feel that that is the best way to get their promotion bonus - but may be a kick in the teeth to the squad we already have, who seem to really like Dean Holden. If it is him he may be a popular choice with the existing squad who might otherwise have faced an uncertain future. Of course I am just guessing about all this - but it makes as much sense as some of the more negative bilge spewed on this forum.

The board are smart, experienced and well meaning people, who understand the challenges of running a football club - in terms of players and staff as well as finances. I have faith that they will be better informed than many of the rather hysterical commentators on these subjects.  If they select Dean Holden or anyone else, I will give them my full support, because whatever I think, that is the most pragmatic course of action.

Yep definitely got the clubs people on this forum.

[ReggyRed]

Just now, Slacker said:

No thanks.

Much rather have LJ than Holden. When he left I thought it was time for a fresh start but if we are going to just appoint his right hand man I wish we never got rid in the first place.

[Olé]

1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

“They always shit on us”?  Really?  I’ve quite enjoyed the last few seasons and have been impressed by just how much the club has been prepared to invest. 

Chris (I think it's Chris?) - while I wouldn't use language like "shat on", in this instance I do think that's not far off what is happening to us and we're at risk of believing we're all on different sides when our priorities are the same. A stable, well run, ideally successful club operated in the interests of its supporters, not individuals. I have a lot of time for your responsible, positive outlook, but I think you're drawing a very different conclusion to me, using the exact same data. Or if I can be direct, you see a virtuous, responsible push for a young coach, I see it as anything but. 

My approach to this potential Holden appointment is straightforward. For me it confirms my worst fears about SL's intention at City - which I've covered on here already, but in essence is about indulging his control/access to football matters, through placement of utterly inexperienced people in the most skilled and critical role in the organisation, where they are both indebted to and manipulated by the owner and his appointed CEO. Great benefactor or not, in my view it's reckless, self-indulgent, and not in the interests of the club, the exact opposite of how you read it.

SL admitted this access under LJ, and as a fan of logic, I work through different scenarios to try and understand rationale and I don't see any other explanation other than SL not relinquishing that structure. Suspicion of this under LJ was tempered by his history at City and some legitimacy to his candidacy. But on what planet is Holden a legitimate candidate even if your objective is "good young coach"? He has no history or track record, his isn't known in football as a top coach, hell SL even knows good young coaches - i.e. Luke Williams headhunted by us and from us.

We are in a farcical situation where our proposed appointment wouldn't be made by a single other club at our level and probably not the level below us and ticks absolutely no boxes other than convenience and then something in my view more sinister around access and influence for the people that make that appointment. I accept you probably see this as pragmatic, stable, sensible - I am absolutely terrified that it is the total opposite. Do no alarm bells go off at all, at the unlikeliness of Holden's candidacy and the hidden agenda that might suggest is at work at the club? 

In the other bit in bold above, you highlight "investment" by City as an example of how impressed you are at their intentions. I would agree, but doesn't that evidence to you precisely the flaw in your acceptance of the approach to managers as prudent and responsible? When by your own observation it can't be about money? To me that's the opposite of prudence, it's utterly reckless to be lavishing cash on all parts of the car but finding reasons to put a novice in the driving seat. Appointing Holden would simply confirm a repeated agenda to install and prop up a puppet.

One of the taboos on OTIB is questioning SL. Funding the club affords him almost unquestioning loyalty and appreciation. I appreciate him too, and all he has spent on City, but owning the club is a privilege for him too, and I won't sit quietly when decisions blur the lines between custodian and self-indulgence. It's an easy line to highlight the reckless and disastrous ownership (foreign and otherwise) at other clubs. No one mentions Leicester, Sheff Utd, Cardiff and plenty of others have passed us by under responsible, hands-off foreign owners without any of this charade. 

[Mr Hankey]

52 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's always been the rumour with Lansdown and City.  Hence appointments like Millen, LJ and Tinnion.  And hence appointments like Cotterill and Coppell ultimately fail. 

Holden being appointed would confirm my absolute worst fears about SLs hands-on relationship with the club. It'll always hold us back, it always has done since he took over in 2001. 

We're destined to carry on underachieving whilst he remains in charge. 

Can’t be saying things like that about Lord Lansdown, you will have a contract put out on you!

Whilst i appreaciate the good he has done for us in regard to the stadium, which by the way no longer even belongs to the club but the man himself (!), & the training ground & we could have far worse in charge.......we could also have far better! The money he has spent & we seem no closer to the prem ( for people who say “oh i dont want to see us in the prem anyway” have a ******* look at yourself before deciding you want to follow a sport, surely you want your club to be the best), plus the thought of Little Jonny having the club in the future is enough to be worried about.

If Holden is appointed, hopefully he will be a success, but what happens when he doesn’t? Will Ashton put himself in charge, will we have a situation where Jon wants to have a go at telling the manager who to play? Strange times ahead.

[exAtyeoMax]

I would’ve thought it more prudent to employ the experienced person over the novice in times of crisis? I would have thought he was better placed to deal with all aspects of running the team without relying on player trading. Surely CH isn’t that arrogant to demand the same financial backing in the midst of a global pandemic as before? 
 

[lenred]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

OK lets examine this: Firstly, not a single person on this forum has a clue what was in the job specification. It might have been unsuitable for an experienced and well known old style manager, who would prefer to buy success with other peoples money. If that ends in failure he would go to pastures new and leave a mess behind for the next chap to try to get rid of unwanted players - all of whom might be blocking progress for our young stars. Experienced big name types may want to buy success because they feel that that is the best way to get their promotion bonus - but may be a kick in the teeth to the squad we already have, who seem to really like Dean Holden. If it is him he may be a popular choice with the existing squad who might otherwise have faced an uncertain future. Of course I am just guessing about all this - but it makes as much sense as some of the more negative bilge spewed on this forum.

The board are smart, experienced and well meaning people, who understand the challenges of running a football club - in terms of players and staff as well as finances. I have faith that they will be better informed than many of the rather hysterical commentators on these subjects.  If they select Dean Holden or anyone else, I will give them my full support, because whatever I think, that is the most pragmatic course of action.

Football for me always has been and always will be about passion.  And the current set up in the board room and certainly the apparent appointment of Holden inspires none of it despite millions and millions spent.  I don’t give two flying tosses about pragmatism.  

 

[BrizzleRed]

13 minutes ago, nebristolred said:

Agreed. As  much as I'm sure he'll be excited to get the job, I actually feel really sorry for him, due to all the negative reception he's getting, and it's pretty unjustified in that respect. I don't mean any of this as a dig at him at all. He might well be brilliant, I think we're just bored of being the club that takes the chance rather than letting someone else do it.

It's not his fault that genuinely better qualified candidates are about and he is the one that's chosen.

Completely agree there and really don’t envy him.

It’s incredible really, but if this happens, the club will have somehow managed to make a way less popular appointment than when they brought in LJ!

Some achievement City!!!

[Sturny]

Just now, JonDolman said:

Like I said, Holden for 12 months to play the youth with the seniors. Bring in a few in the window. Play good football like it looked in some of those recent games.

No harm done. Who knows he might even do really well. 

Who knows we might get relegated

[extonsred]

If it was to be Holden surely he would have been appointed by now. 

Is it not possible we have a foreign manager lined up - but with Brexit there is a whole sheath of new paperwork to be sorted before new long term work permits are issued?? 

Clutching at straws no doubt - its all we have left!! 

[lenred]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Like I said, Holden for 12 months to play the youth with the seniors. Bring in a few in the window. Play good football like it looked in some of those recent games.

No harm done. Who knows he might even do really well. 

Good football?!! Did you watch any of the games?  

[City oz]

Just now, Sturny said:

Who knows we might get relegated

The mention of the word relegated should not be mentioned on OTIB. 

[The Constant Rabbit]

34 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It concerns me that you were still LJ in until the very end and now you’ve written that first sentence that you cannot possibly believe. 

There were rumours on here a while back that the club AGENTS planted people on this forum to tow the party line and I’m struggling to see any other reason for you having suggested Holden would be the right choice. 
 

You must be able to see that the only reason he’d be appointed would be to be a yes man. 

FTFY

[Jacki]

56 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That's always been the rumour with Lansdown and City.  Hence appointments like Millen, LJ and Tinnion.  And hence appointments like Cotterill and Coppell ultimately fail. 

Holden being appointed would confirm my absolute worst fears about SLs hands-on relationship with the club. It'll always hold us back, it always has done since he took over in 2001. 

We're destined to carry on underachieving whilst he remains in charge. 

I completely agree. I always tried to bury my head in the sand and assume these rumours weren’t true in the hope that someone so obviously business savvy just wouldn’t be that daft.

The more this goes on though, the more I think it must have merit. Someone earlier mentioned Angus Scott alluding to this, and I remember Flapper Phillips saying similar. When Phillips came out with it I dismissed it as a bitter ex player, and a gas one at that. But if Holden ends up getting this job it’s all the confirmation I need to believe it to be true. No manager worth having would put up with it and that’s why, despite spending fortunes on players and infrastructure over the years, we’ve always ended up with the managers we have.

if we get Hughton, however, it would give hope that he’s ripping it up and starting again

[Bat Fastard]

8 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

It concerns me that you were still LJ in until the very end and now you’ve written that first sentence that you cannot possibly believe. 

There were rumours on here a while back that the club planted people on this forum to tow the party line and I’m struggling to see any other reason for you having suggested Holden would be the right choice. 
 

You must be able to see that the only reason he’d be appointed would be to be a yes man. 

OK you have caught me - I am a Russian spy!!  

I believed that Lee had lost Webster and then Brownhill, both key players and we had not found adequate replacements.  Injuries to Afobe, Kalas and DaSilva and ongoing injuries to our two best remaining midfield players were the facts that made last season difficult for Lee.  I thought he should have been allowed to continue because he was a very bright, honest and hard working head coach.  That just happens to be my opinion because I have seen so many management changes over the years and think they are frequently disasters that leave fragmented squads of players when changes happen. We have all seen this and that is the reason for our club trying to do things differently.  Every time a manager/head coach loses a few games people call for him to be sacked.  That is no way to run a stable organisation and the baying masses on the forum are frequently a cause for total negativity rather than undying love and support. I love my club and have done for well over 50years and will support come what may. I try to be more positive in my views than many on here. Its the way I am!

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Like I said, Holden for 12 months to play the youth with the seniors. Bring in a few in the window. Play good football like it looked in some of those recent games.

No harm done. Who knows he might even do really well. 

Johnson could’ve done that but he was expected to achieve playoffs and was sacked. Why would the club lower their expectations all of a sudden?

[Mr Hankey]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

Like I said, Holden for 12 months to play the youth with the seniors. Bring in a few in the window. Play good football like it looked in some of those recent games.

No harm done. Who knows he might even do really well. 

Relying on youth can go terribly wrong, we have no idea if Morrell, Walsh, Vyner (certainly doesnt look it) & Moore will be up to scratch. If it goes wrong first few games and our season turns in to a dogfight will they hide & all confidence drain? I wouldnt be confident in this route, the Championship is a hell of a tough league. Youth doesnt always work, rarely unless you are a United or Arsenal.

[mozo]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

Chris (I think it's Chris?) - while I wouldn't use language like "shat on", in this instance I do think that's not far off what is happening to us and we're at risk of believing we're all on different sides when our priorities are the same. A stable, well run, ideally successful club operated in the interests of its supporters, not individuals. I have a lot of time for your responsible, positive outlook, but I think you're drawing a very different conclusion to me, using the exact same data. Or if I can be direct, you see a virtuous, responsible push for a young coach, I see it as anything but. 

My approach to this potential Holden appointment is straightforward. For me it confirms my worst fears about SL's intention at City - which I've covered on here already, but in essence is about indulging his control/access to football matters, through placement of utterly inexperienced people in the most skilled and critical role in the organisation, where they are both indebted to and manipulated by the owner and his appointed CEO. Great benefactor or not, in my view it's reckless, self-indulgent, and not in the interests of the club, the exact opposite of how you read it.

SL admitted this access under LJ, and as a fan of logic, I work through different scenarios to try and understand rationale and I don't see any other explanation other than SL not relinquishing that structure. Suspicion of this under LJ was tempered by his history at City and some legitimacy to his candidacy. But on what planet is Holden a legitimate candidate even if your objective is "good young coach"? He has no history or track record, his isn't known in football as a top coach, hell SL even knows good young coaches - i.e. Luke Williams headhunted by us and from us.

We are in a farcical situation where our proposed appointment wouldn't be made by a single other club at our level and probably not the level below us and ticks absolutely no boxes other than convenience and then something in my view more sinister around access and influence for the people that make that appointment. I accept you probably see this as pragmatic, stable, sensible - I am absolutely terrified that it is the total opposite. Do no alarm bells go off at all, at the unlikeliness of Holden's candidacy and the hidden agenda that might suggest is at work at the club? 

In the other bit in bold above, you highlight "investment" by City as an example of how impressed you are at their intentions. I would agree, but doesn't that evidence to you precisely the flaw in your acceptance of the approach to managers as prudent and responsible? When by your own observation it can't be about money? To me that's the opposite of prudence, it's utterly reckless to be lavishing cash on all parts of the car but finding reasons to put a novice in the driving seat. Appointing Holden would simply confirm a repeated agenda to install and prop up a puppet.

One of the taboos on OTIB is questioning SL. Funding the club affords him almost unquestioning loyalty and appreciation. I appreciate him too, and all he has spent on City, but owning the club is a privilege for him too, and I won't sit quietly when decisions blur the lines between custodian and self-indulgence. It's an easy line to highlight the reckless and disastrous ownership (foreign and otherwise) at other clubs. No one mentions Leicester, Sheff Utd, Cardiff and plenty of others have passed us by under responsible, hands-off foreign owners without any of this charade. 

Wonderfully put my man

[Kibs]

6 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Like I said, Holden for 12 months to play the youth with the seniors. Bring in a few in the window. Play good football like it looked in some of those recent games.

No harm done. Who knows he might even do really well. 

Well, that remains to be seen. He might do well but equally, he might struggle to attract players, we might end up in the lower half or fighting relegation and all the hard work of increasing the profile/reputation of the club, where we were thought of as having genuine ambitions of Premier League football, allowing us to attract some very good players, could well set us back years.

[miloemily]

Nothing against Holden if he is appointed but I think city should look at the Middlesbrough shambles of a season. Appointing a novice manager. Woodgate was awful and they were saved by Warnock. It will happen here I’m sorry to say. 

[ReggyRed]

All positivity has been completely drained from me regarding our football club

[nebristolred]

The club are daft enough to take 5 weeks to find a successor, but yet they are competent enough to have a complex series of plants on here to try and gauge and even sway fan opinion.

I can't believe this site is free  

[Major Isewater]

49 minutes ago, Coppello said:

The club really are taking the piss now:

Harry Dolman is an anagram of Marry Holdan. They really are just taunting the fans. 

I bet old Harry is turning in his grave right now .

[Robbored]

I must admit that I’m finding the whole managerial appointment very tiresome.....................