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Dean Holden (Merged)


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If we appoint Holden I will...   

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17 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I really hope the Holden takes us up and some of the posters on this thread look back at it and apologise for being utterly embarrassing..! 

You’ve unwittingly hit the nail in the head. A club that has worked its way into a position over a number of years where the EXPECTATION of the owner himself is to be play off challenging is potentially replacing that expectation  with HOPE.
 

We HOPE that Dean hits the ground running and we HOPE the kids can cut the mustard. What is the logic behind such a shift in policy? When LJ was sacked none of this shift in policy was coming out of Lansdowns gob on the radio, it was the opposite.

Supporters paying their hard earned are entitled to ask the question aren’t they?

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2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Spot on, if DH was a possible replacement to LJ in the Clubs eyes then surely they should have interviewed him ASAP after LJ went and got him in ASAP to help with continuity, building for next season etc.

To take 5/6 weeks to appoint somebody you already had at the club is ridiculous, and I can see why fans have lost it.  

I don’t think anyone has anything against DH personally and if appointed straight away with reasons of cost cutting or Covid or whatever then at least you could understand it, but SL can’t now say he wants Prem football, interview the likes of Hughton supposedly, and after all of that say DH was the best candidate, I don’t buy it as it makes no sense based on experience and achievements in the game.

So hopefully IF they appoint DH they are honest about the reasons it was him but I doubt it.

As others have said, it seems SL is happy to spend his $$$$ on players but not the manager, like buying fancy Alloys but you don’t have a steering wheel!  Again makes no sense at all.

Nobody wanted LJ and in fairness he did well in his time, established the club etc etc so to take the next step you need someone who’s done it before IMO, not someone with even less experience than your last manager, where is the logic?  Nice guy or not, DH is a huge gamble for the club to take.  This is the first I can remember a new manager actually being in a good place to start the season ie. not coming in to fight relegation, And with DH IMO we are not taking the opportunity.

Absolutely spot on with every point

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2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Spot on, if DH was a possible replacement to LJ in the Clubs eyes then surely they should have interviewed him ASAP after LJ went and got him in ASAP to help with continuity, building for next season etc.

To take 5/6 weeks to appoint somebody you already had at the club is ridiculous, and I can see why fans have lost it.  

I don’t think anyone has anything against DH personally and if appointed straight away with reasons of cost cutting or Covid or whatever then at least you could understand it, but SL can’t now say he wants Prem football, interview the likes of Hughton supposedly, and after all of that say DH was the best candidate, I don’t buy it as it makes no sense based on experience and achievements in the game.

So hopefully IF they appoint DH they are honest about the reasons it was him but I doubt it.

As others have said, it seems SL is happy to spend his $$$$ on players but not the manager, like buying fancy Alloys but you don’t have a steering wheel!  Again makes no sense at all.

Nobody wanted LJ and in fairness he did well in his time, established the club etc etc so to take the next step you need someone who’s done it before IMO, not someone with even less experience than your last manager, where is the logic?  Nice guy or not, DH is a huge gamble for the club to take.  This is the first I can remember a new manager actually being in a good place to start the season ie. not coming in to fight relegation, And with DH IMO we are not taking the opportunity.

Post of the day. SPOT on.

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2 minutes ago, mozo said:

Constant chopping and changing of team selection, not knowing best formation, strange substitutions, marginalising certain players without reason, publicly shaming players to the media, not taking responsibility for failure, signing players and not using them, direct and scrappy football, inability of team to create chances, a four game losing streak with a fully fit squad...

I don't think you've got that all covered Bat.

I can understand that Lee was passionate about his job and that he might feel conflicted about the various stresses and strains within the club.  I can forgive him for an excess of passion and for the fact that his most key players were sold or injured.  I expect he found that frustrating as well but he helped to put the club on a better financial footing.

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12 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Have you no answer then to me responding to your assumption that majority of Bristol City fans are entitled and just 'wrong' because you don't agree with them then?

 

1 minute ago, 2015 said:

You'll always have the usual  entitled types with complete lack of perspective who go over the top, but they are always in the vast minority as they are in society thank God. They're just mouthy gobshites who will be enjoying this, nothing more than that.

^ That was your post

Is this you or another poster then? Seems like an indirect dig at vocal supporters on OTIB, social media who don't agree with the potential appointment of Dean Holden. 
But of course, i've misunderstood...

You most definitely have misunderstood, that is patently obvious, and I would suggest that you have a problem with English comprehension.

As I said, no point in debating with something that is in your head but not in my post.

:sub:

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Maybe with the current fears re revenue falls due to covid -19 due to no fans etc that the negotiating with any possible new manager

is taking a lot longer than previously - which to some extent is understandable. Maybe Hughton or Cook are sticking to their guns and

demanding salaries that City (and other clubs) are not prepared to pay.

We were informed a couple of weeks ago that Hughton was also interested in the Watford job - well he hasn't been appointed by them either.

Times are very different to normal so maybe that is the reason for these frustrating delays.

Bear with.

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2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Spot on, if DH was a possible replacement to LJ in the Clubs eyes then surely they should have interviewed him ASAP after LJ went and got him in ASAP to help with continuity, building for next season etc.

To take 5/6 weeks to appoint somebody you already had at the club is ridiculous, and I can see why fans have lost it.  

I don’t think anyone has anything against DH personally and if appointed straight away with reasons of cost cutting or Covid or whatever then at least you could understand it, but SL can’t now say he wants Prem football, interview the likes of Hughton supposedly, and after all of that say DH was the best candidate, I don’t buy it as it makes no sense based on experience and achievements in the game.

So hopefully IF they appoint DH they are honest about the reasons it was him but I doubt it.

As others have said, it seems SL is happy to spend his $$$$ on players but not the manager, like buying fancy Alloys but you don’t have a steering wheel!  Again makes no sense at all.

Nobody wanted LJ and in fairness he did well in his time, established the club etc etc so to take the next step you need someone who’s done it before IMO, not someone with even less experience than your last manager, where is the logic?  Nice guy or not, DH is a huge gamble for the club to take.  This is the first I can remember a new manager actually being in a good place to start the season ie. not coming in to fight relegation, And with DH IMO we are not taking the opportunity.

Agreed. My personal opinion is Holden is a big mistake if we appoint him. It’s a really underwhelming appointment and I am very disappointed in how the club have raised expectations.

If he is appointed however, I’ll 100% support him as a manager as well as the team. I’m sure this is the case for almost everyone else. People shouldn’t mistake scrutiny and anger about the board’s decision making for a personal attack on Dean Holden.

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There’s a worrying trend forming as well:

 

2019/20 sell our two best players (Webster and Brownhill) and don’t replace them

2020/21 sack our manager, don’t replace him

2020/21 sell two of our best players (Fam and Eliasson) - can’t see them being replaced either

 

That old friends, is stagnation. And that will only breed apathy among the players and fan base. If you’re not moving forward, you’re not moving forward. 

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2 minutes ago, dunsteral said:

Maybe with the current fears re revenue falls due to covid -19 due to no fans etc that the negotiating with any possible new manager

is taking a lot longer than previously - which to some extent is understandable. Maybe Hughton or Cook are sticking to their guns and

demanding salaries that City (and other clubs) are not prepared to pay.

We were informed a couple of weeks ago that Hughton was also interested in the Watford job - well he hasn't been appointed by them either.

Times are very different to normal so maybe that is the reason for these frustrating delays.

Bear with.

Then don't make Steven Gerrard your first choice.

Coronavirus is hardly new, it was well in play when they sacked Johnson and nothing has changed since they went after Gerrard. Absolute Shit show from Lansdown Snr, Lansdown Jr & that *** Mark Ashton

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1 minute ago, Notbarrymanc said:

There’s a worrying trend forming as well:

 

2019/20 sell our two best players (Webster and Brownhill) and don’t replace them

2020/21 sack our manager, don’t replace him

2020/21 sell two of our best players (Fam and Eliasson) - can’t see them being replaced either

 

That old friends, is stagnation. And that will only breed apathy among the players and fan base. If you’re not moving forward, you’re not moving forward. 

That is exactly it. The whole point in sacking Lee Johnson was because he couldn't get us to the top 6 in the end, so you appoint a Manager who has the experience to get us to that destination. We are now teetering on going backwards now.

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4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed. My personal opinion is Holden is a big mistake if we appoint him. It’s a really underwhelming appointment and I am very disappointed in how the club have raised expectations.

If he is appointed however, I’ll 100% support him as a manager as well as the team. I’m sure this is the case for almost everyone else. People shouldn’t mistake scrutiny and anger about the board’s decision making for a personal attack on Dean Holden.

Run out of likes but I think that sums it all up and probably how most people feel about it (other than the minority entitled, over the top, vindictive types).

 

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1 hour ago, Olé said:

Chris (I think it's Chris?) - while I wouldn't use language like "shat on", in this instance I do think that's not far off what is happening to us and we're at risk of believing we're all on different sides when our priorities are the same. A stable, well run, ideally successful club operated in the interests of its supporters, not individuals. I have a lot of time for your responsible, positive outlook, but I think you're drawing a very different conclusion to me, using the exact same data. Or if I can be direct, you see a virtuous, responsible push for a young coach, I see it as anything but. 

My approach to this potential Holden appointment is straightforward. For me it confirms my worst fears about SL's intention at City - which I've covered on here already, but in essence is about indulging his control/access to football matters, through placement of utterly inexperienced people in the most skilled and critical role in the organisation, where they are both indebted to and manipulated by the owner and his appointed CEO. Great benefactor or not, in my view it's reckless, self-indulgent, and not in the interests of the club, the exact opposite of how you read it.

SL admitted this access under LJ, and as a fan of logic, I work through different scenarios to try and understand rationale and I don't see any other explanation other than SL not relinquishing that structure. Suspicion of this under LJ was tempered by his history at City and some legitimacy to his candidacy. But on what planet is Holden a legitimate candidate even if your objective is "good young coach"? He has no history or track record, his isn't known in football as a top coach, hell SL even knows good young coaches - i.e. Luke Williams headhunted by us and from us.

We are in a farcical situation where our proposed appointment wouldn't be made by a single other club at our level and probably not the level below us and ticks absolutely no boxes other than convenience and then something in my view more sinister around access and influence for the people that make that appointment. I accept you probably see this as pragmatic, stable, sensible - I am absolutely terrified that it is the total opposite. Do no alarm bells go off at all, at the unlikeliness of Holden's candidacy and the hidden agenda that might suggest is at work at the club? 

In the other bit in bold above, you highlight "investment" by City as an example of how impressed you are at their intentions. I would agree, but doesn't that evidence to you precisely the flaw in your acceptance of the approach to managers as prudent and responsible? When by your own observation it can't be about money? To me that's the opposite of prudence, it's utterly reckless to be lavishing cash on all parts of the car but finding reasons to put a novice in the driving seat. Appointing Holden would simply confirm a repeated agenda to install and prop up a puppet.

One of the taboos on OTIB is questioning SL. Funding the club affords him almost unquestioning loyalty and appreciation. I appreciate him too, and all he has spent on City, but owning the club is a privilege for him too, and I won't sit quietly when decisions blur the lines between custodian and self-indulgence. It's an easy line to highlight the reckless and disastrous ownership (foreign and otherwise) at other clubs. No one mentions Leicester, Sheff Utd, Cardiff and plenty of others have passed us by under responsible, hands-off foreign owners without any of this charade. 

Completely agree with all of this. Great post.

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6 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Riaz....I was right about Lee Johnson, and the majority of us will be right about Holden 

Just won’t happen mate. 100%

Were you??!!

Werent you expecting relegation?? :laugh:

He did a good job here and turned us from relegation fodder to a top half club.

You were wrong

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8 hours ago, Olé said:

SL made his comments on July 9th, FOUR MONTHS after the start of the lockdown to football. If anyone thinks an astute finance expert like SL after four months hadn't already established sensitivity analysis for worst case scenarios, they really are implying astounding levels of SL ineptitude in the rush, of all things, to defend him!

For half that time he didn't even have certainty the season would return nor the mechanism the club employed  using Robins TV to retain booked revenue. So the position on July 9th was better than the worst COVID impact SL must have already contemplated and therefore he was quite prepared when he talked LJ's replacement.

I have no issue with people preaching financial prudence, but there is no basis to give SL a pass on this, if we appoint Holden his comments were pure lip service - he claims an objective but always reverts to type to hire inexperienced people to achieve it. It's not even a money issue as he'll throw signings at them to make it work.

And in regard to "losses on and off the field", it is the Chief Executive of the organisation's job to ensure those impacts are fully costed and a new projection is issued. From lockdown to SL's comments MA earned at least £117k (on 2018 figures, with his voluntary 20% cut) - if SL didn't have clear figures, what is he paying MA for?

...and ultimately it’s about the players....and what they do on the pitch.  If Holden is backed by him having a decent squad (some in, some retained, some out), then his success or failure will be determined on the pitch.

Of course you’d expect a Hughton or Cook to be a much lower risk in doing that, but that’s the gamble the board have taken.

One small positive, is that you’d assume evaluation of the squad has been done and recruitment in and out can start I educate my.

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10 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I can understand that Lee was passionate about his job and that he might feel conflicted about the various stresses and strains within the club.  I can forgive him for an excess of passion and for the fact that his most key players were sold or injured.  I expect he found that frustrating as well but he helped to put the club on a better financial footing.

I'm enjoying seeing this compassionate side of you Bat! Very different from the blobfish I once debated with. Keep those positivity levels up my friend.

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23 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

How about people give him a chance before putting him down as the wrong choice..? 

You surely can’t be this naive. It’s not about prejudging him as a certain failure. Of course there is every chance he’s our messiah. However, based on probability, our chance of success will take a huge hit with Holden. 
 

A decent illustration of this is thinking about how the bookies will view the appointment. Under Hughton we’d be relatively short odds for top 6. Under Holden we’ll be no where near. Of course the bookies aren’t always right, but their initial prices will be based on calculated probabilities and they’re right more often than not. 

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2 hours ago, lenred said:

No chance - with all due respect.  Timing doesn’t help certainly,  but appointing DH at any time would be seen as a complete and utter cluster **** by many. 

I agree, but was just pointing out we could of got our heads round it better albeit not happy if they done it sooner. 
 

If he turns out to get us to play offs playing attractive football I would be asking why didn’t he stand up against LJ and point out where he was wrong. Won’t happen though because we saw a slight glimmer against Boro. But the rest was the same as LJ style. And WTF was he thinking of doing playing Williams again after that sending off? So yes I’m 100% behind your feeling that he should of went the same time. But I’m more pissed off with the billy bollock brain spin they will put on it. 

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8 minutes ago, Notbarrymanc said:

There’s a worrying trend forming as well:

 

2019/20 sell our two best players (Webster and Brownhill) and don’t replace them

2020/21 sack our manager, don’t replace him

2020/21 sell two of our best players (Fam and Eliasson) - can’t see them being replaced either

 

That old friends, is stagnation. And that will only breed apathy among the players and fan base. If you’re not moving forward, you’re not moving forward. 

You could argue, buying Kalas was the proactive replacement of Webster.  I don’t think it was, but there are books to balance.

Brownhill replaced by Henriksen but the divisions top scorer Wells.

The subjectivity is whether they were adequately replaced.

We will need to wait and see whether we adequately replace Eliasson and Diedhiou (should they gol).

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1 minute ago, Matty Taylors a Red said:

You surely can’t be this naive. It’s not about prejudging him as a certain failure. Of course there is every chance he’s our messiah. However, based on probability, our chance of success will take a huge hit with Holden. 
 

A decent illustration of this is thinking about how the bookies will view the appointment. Under Hughton we’d be relatively short odds for top 6. Under Holden we’ll be no where near. Of course the bookies aren’t always right, but their initial prices will be based on calculated probabilities and they’re right more often than not. 

At the moment we are 25/1 for the championship and 8/1 for promotion.

 

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8 minutes ago, mozo said:

I'm enjoying seeing this compassionate side of you Bat! Very different from the blobfish I once debated with. Keep those positivity levels up my friend.

I have not changed Mozo - not taking the easy line to court popularity but still telling it straight!

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21 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

That's possibly a fairer point, I dont know what went wrong with Cotts but from where we were when he left we're closer. Every season since we've been in the hunt for the playoffs until the last few games - although most of us agree that LJ couldnt get us over that line for whatever reason and those end of season games were disappointing.

On paper, we had a very good chance of making play offs when the league restarted. This season is the most disappointing for me

I get where you are coming from and your point but for me finishing 18th, 17th, 11th, 8th, & 12th doesn't quite cut it as being any closer to winning promotion despite being in & around it.

For me, taking all emotion away from it due to the cup run, the most disappointing of all was the 17/18 season. I genuinely feel if we would of went for it in the January instead of signing Diony & Kent (on paper looked decent) & getting some proper experience we could of done it but fell away completely hopelessly.

Would of loved to have seen what Cotts could of achieved with LJ's backing. I fully expect (not just because of Covid) the tap to be turned off for Holden.

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11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You could argue, buying Kalas was the proactive replacement of Webster.  I don’t think it was, but there are books to balance.

Brownhill replaced by Henriksen but the divisions top scorer Wells.

The subjectivity is whether they were adequately replaced.

We will need to wait and see whether we adequately replace Eliasson and Diedhiou (should they gol).

Progression is also subjective, but from another POV quite literal: you can see it in team performance and league standing. That’s where the stagnation becomes evident. 
 

The fact is that 19/20 did not see progression in league position. Is this related to player recruitment? Yep, imo quite clearly. 
 

If we weaken the 1st team and management team will 20/21 see further regression? Of course. That stagnation will manifest itself in quite obvious ways - team performance and  league standing. 

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You could argue, buying Kalas was the proactive replacement of Webster.  I don’t think it was, but there are books to balance.

Brownhill replaced by Henriksen but the divisions top scorer Wells.

The subjectivity is whether they were adequately replaced.

We will need to wait and see whether we adequately replace Eliasson and Diedhiou (should they gol).

After Webster departed Kalas and DaSilva had injury issues and Henriksen was not a patch on Brownhill in any respect. Wells was a great acquisition but without the right blend in midfield, not enough.  We are a constant work in progress.

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53 minutes ago, Abingdon Red said:

I've reached the point where I dont care any more, just appoint someone who will get the team to play better football and who will give the academy players much more first team opportunities and I'll be happy.

Not a lot to ask really is it.

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Just now, JonDolman said:

I think Johnson lost the dressing room. I liked bits of what I saw Holden do.

It's hard to say. I am hoping the club know more about what to expect from Holden than what we do.

I think LJ tactically had lost the plot. If Holden keeps it more simple, with a similar system to what we saw under him. But with better midfielders then I expect us to do pretty well.

I think it will be a 12 month contract and maybe he will have the exact same expectations as LJ.

If he does have to achieve top 6 then we can get rid for nothing at the end of the season. Or very cheap compensation before that.

Not what I'd do but I am not furious like most are. I imagine if it were not for the pandemic then we would not have made this decision.

I'd still rather Holden than LJ as to me LJ had lost the plot with his team selections and it seems the players had had enough of him.

Holden seems to have the players respect, he plays a system that I think suits us, and looks like he will stick with that system and similar type of 11 every game, will know the youth and will likely be looking to play 3 or 4 of those that might now be ready after very good loans away.  

I really do hope you are right if Holden is appointed and that I and many others are proved wrong.

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17 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

At the moment we are 25/1 for the championship and 8/1 for promotion.

 

Less favoured by the punters and bookies nationwide than Coventry, Huddersfield, and Preston, and similar chances to Barnsley.

Whilst perhaps a simplistic leap to take, these current odds should give you a flavour of how we are currently viewed externally and this is probably in no small part due to the ongoing management situation and also the rumoured imminent appointment.

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3 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think Johnson lost the dressing room. I liked bits of what I saw Holden do.

It's hard to say. I am hoping the club know more about what to expect from Holden than what we do.

I think LJ tactically had lost the plot. If Holden keeps it more simple, with a similar system to what we saw under him. But with better midfielders then I expect us to do pretty well.

I think it will be a 12 month contract and maybe he will have the exact same expectations as LJ.

If he does have to achieve top 6 then we can get rid for nothing at the end of the season. Or very cheap compensation before that.

Not what I'd do but I am not furious like most are. I imagine if it were not for the pandemic then we would not have made this decision.

I'd still rather Holden than LJ as to me LJ had lost the plot with his team selections and it seems the players had had enough of him.

Holden seems to have the players respect, he plays a system that I think suits us, and looks like he will stick with that system and similar type of 11 every game, will know the youth and will likely be looking to play 3 or 4 of those that might now be ready after very good loans away.  

It's widely accepted we approached Gerrard and were/are talking to Hughton. Covid cannot be used as an excuse for appointing Holden as a result. If we had only targeted cheaper/out of work managers such as the Cowley Brothers, Ryan Lowe or Flynn then perhaps it could be used. 

Also, surely Covid strengthens the argument for appointing Holden quicker too; immediately after LJ. If the club had done that and basically said we need to ride out the storm for a season whilst it blows over and maintain continuity then I think people would've been more accepting. The flack the club is getting is entirely of their own making - raising expectations, taking a long time and ultimately appointing someone who was here the whole time. 

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