Dean Holden (Merged)

[Superjack]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

I agree with your first sentence. I am not off-pissed with the selection, if in fact it is Dean Holden. I could see how he could do well.

The interviewing and other processes that the club have been engaged with may have simply confirmed Dean Holden as the best choice after an objective process to find the best candidate.  I have faith that the board, who also want us to succeed, will have considered all this very carefully.  Most managerial reigns end in disappointment, but I hope that, if it is Dean Holden, he has every success imaginable.

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way that this appointment is a 'considered' one. 

It either was always going to be, in which case they have lied to us, or they have royally ****ed up the process and it is all that they are left with.

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

It all points to this:

We thought we It would be easy to appoint a high profile replacement for LJ based on clubs own opinion of themselves

Potential high profile appointments don’t want to work with the constraints of the structure of the club

Divisions within said hierarchy around reduction/relinquishing of responsibility to high profile appointment

Dean Holden identified as the option that appeases all under a blanket of pandemic/financial concerns

Massive mis-judgment of fan base mood regarding potential appointment and the fact that this is almost impossible to spin or justify based on “on the record” interviews and transcript pointing to the exact opposite of appointing from within again

And as we speak probably some sort of fire-fight/damage limitation meeting around best way out of this entire mess after nearly 5 weeks

It smacks of mis-judgment at best or being inwardly conceited and self-indulgent at worst

If the club reaches its first, second, third or even fourth choice and it’s taken this long to thrash out then that’s barely understandable, but to blatantly dis-regard/ignore their own intentions with this appointment and therefore appoint based on a set of objectives that they stated categorically and then choose to ignore is ridiculous.

Exactly.

Personally, had the club came out 3 days after LJ's sacking and said something like "Look, times are tough (pandemic blah blah blah), we've looked around and in our opinion we cannot/it's not worth it/it's not the time to go big on a high profile appointment. Instead, we've interviewed Holden and like what we see. There won't be much change in the squad this summer and we think Dean's in depth knowledge of the players will help the transition. We're giving him a year to see what he can do with the current squad. " Dress that up with some corporate speak and a few platitudes to the fans and there you go, everyone has two weeks in Mykonos and we come back and do pre-season.

Instead we're still going to get that statement, but it's going to come after a whole month of what you describe in your post.

I'm fine now if Holden comes in as well. Not happy, not excited, not impressed, but fine.

[Bat Fastard]

59 minutes ago, collier said:

You either have to be trolling or your head is so far in the clouds that you can't see what you are writing!!! How is appointing Holden 5-6 weeks after LJ got the sack anywhere near the plan or within the same ballpark of what SL stated in his interview??

Quite simply the club invited applications and DH applied along with others. They were sifted and discussed and interviews were held and eventually, at the end of a proper process, a candidate was selected. We think, but are not sure that this is DH. This is fairly standard practice in many companies.

[BCFC Rich]

Is the evidence for DH being our choice still just the Gregor tweet? Or have I missed some other details?

[Bat Fastard]

44 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

If he's that damn good why has he not been snapped up before. I mean look at the achievements of those that applied. And there we were, hiding the extraordinary talent of Dean Holden, we were just a little unsure how brilliant he was until we took 5 weeks and pretended to go through a recruitment show. What you really mean to say is he is the only candidate that will let Mark Ashton sign the players and Steve Lansdown to select  the team. His ony job is to get them fit during the week. On that basis you have got it. he was the ony candidate for the job. 

As long as our directors and playing staff recognise his qualities, that is all that matters at this stage. Everyone has to start somewhere and this, if it is DH who has been selected, will be a massive opportunity for him.  If he does really well then he will have plenty of publicity and his stock will rise,  We shall have to wait and see.

[Numero Uno]

8 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Quite simply the club invited applications and DH applied along with others. They were sifted and discussed and interviews were held and eventually, at the end of a proper process, a candidate was selected. We think, but are not sure that this is DH. This is fairly standard practice in many companies.

As a great philosopher in Bristol once said “these things take time”.........

[Bat Fastard]

10 minutes ago, Superjack said:

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way that this appointment is a 'considered' one. 

It either was always going to be, in which case they have lied to us, or they have royally ****ed up the process and it is all that they are left with.

I get the impression that you are unhappy with the choice if it is DH. From there you question every aspect of the process that led to the choice. None of us really knows what happens but some of us are content to trust the judgement of the board who are even more desperate for success than we are.  I imagine that Messrs Ashton and Jon Lansdown have a great deal of credibility on the line. Maybe they know something that we do not?

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

As a great philosopher in Bristol once said “these things take time”.........

Was that you?? If so, well said!!

[mozo]

10 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Quite simply the club invited applications and DH applied along with others. They were sifted and discussed and interviews were held and eventually, at the end of a proper process, a candidate was selected. We think, but are not sure that this is DH. This is fairly standard practice in many companies.

Sorry Bat but how do you know there was a 'proper process'. 

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, mozo said:

Sorry Bat but how do you know there was a 'proper process'. 

Reports of numbers of applications and GMG writing about second interviews and the like. If you disagree, how do you know that there was not a proper process??

[Colemanballs]

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I get the impression that you are unhappy with the choice if it is DH. From there you question every aspect of the process that led to the choice. None of us really knows what happens but some of us are content to trust the judgement of the board who are even more desperate for success than we are.  I imagine that Messrs Ashton and Jon Lansdown have a great deal of credibility on the line. Maybe they know something that we do not?

Artificial intelligence has definitely come a long way but, sorry R2-D2, you have failed the Turing Test. 

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, Colemanballs said:

Artificial intelligence has definitely come a long way but, sorry R2-D2, you have failed the Turing Test. 

Probably not for the first - or last time!

[mozo]

Just now, Bat Fastard said:

Reports of numbers of applications and GMG writing about second interviews and the like. If you disagree, how do you know that there was not a proper process??

I have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes which was why I was surprised that you were painting a picture of a proper process taking place. It could have been shambolic for all you know. 

[CodeRed]

Exactly, Ashton

5 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Exactly.

Personally, had the club came out 3 days after LJ's sacking and said something like "Look, times are tough (pandemic blah blah blah), we've looked around and in our opinion we cannot/it's not worth it/it's not the time to go big on a high profile appointment. Instead, we've interviewed Holden and like what we see. There won't be much change in the squad this summer and we think Dean's in depth knowledge of the players will help the transition. We're giving him a year to see what he can do with the current squad. " Dress that up with some corporate speak and a few platitudes to the fans and there you go, everyone has two weeks in Mykonos and we come back and do pre-season.

Instead we're still going to get that statement, but it's going to come after a whole month of what you describe in your post.

I'm fine now if Holden comes in as well. Not happy, not excited, not impressed, but fine.

Exactly, Ashton will spin that after  extensive interviews Dean was the stand out candidate (is better than Hughton Cook Gerrard Lowe etc) , don't forget when LJ was appointed Ashton claimed he'd carried out an exhaustive search and the one name that always came up as the best young coach in the country was LJ- and HE recommend him to SL , not the other way around.

Mind you following the 8 game losing run I heard him mention ....when Steve appointed Lee.... during one of his interviews !

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

I get the impression that you are unhappy with the choice if it is DH. From there you question every aspect of the process that led to the choice. None of us really knows what happens but some of us are content to trust the judgement of the board who are even more desperate for success than we are.  I imagine that Messrs Ashton and Jon Lansdown have a great deal of credibility on the line. Maybe they know something that we do not?

Well as one of the first points in the process was publicly stating the required task of the successful candidate, a task that Holden has nothing on his CV to indicate he can achieve, and publicly using the terms "a breath of fresh air" and "someone coming into the club", then yes. You're damn right that I question the process.

[Numero Uno]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

I have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes which was why I was surprised that you were painting a picture of a proper process taking place. It could have been shambolic for all you know. 

I find it hard to believe that a proper recruitment process for our managerial vacancy needs to stretch much beyond three weeks, one month tops if there are sticking points. Something has gone wrong.

[Bat Fastard]

5 minutes ago, mozo said:

I have no idea what's been going on behind the scenes which was why I was surprised that you were painting a picture of a proper process taking place. It could have been shambolic for all you know. 

Mark Ashton seems to be a chap who likes managerial process and protocols and with the reports (albeit from people like GMG!) I simply thought that it was all being done properly.  I have seen no evidence to suggest that it was not but there have been a lot of disappointed posters suggesting all kinds of nonsense.  None of us know anything - or even if DH is the chosen one. We must be patient for a bit longer.

[Philly The Kid]

9 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I get the impression that you are unhappy with the choice if it is DH. From there you question every aspect of the process that led to the choice. None of us really knows what happens but some of us are content to trust the judgement of the board who are even more desperate for success than we are.  I imagine that Messrs Ashton and Jon Lansdown have a great deal of credibility on the line. Maybe they know something that we do not?

That's just rubbish. They want success on a sustainability ticket.... or, depending on your view, on the cheap.
If the board (or the Lansdown family) were desperate, they would have grasped the nettle and appointed someone who would significantly increase the chances of that happening. You know, someone with a track record, someone proven, someone with a great reputation etc. Now I'm not saying that should be Hughton, but if you're desperate (as you suggest) and an obvious solution to your desperation pops up in front of you then surely you take it... Unless of course your judgement is impaired and you are taking the advice of someone who sees their power base being eroded.....

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, Numero Uno said:

I find it hard to believe that a proper recruitment process for our managerial vacancy needs to stretch much beyond three weeks, one month tops if there are sticking points. Something has gone wrong.

Maybe key people were not available in a timely fashion and that has compounded delays. I believe DH has been away - probably his last chance for family time for the best part of a year, if he has got the job.

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, Phillythe kid said:

That's just rubbish. They want success on a sustainability ticket.... or, depending on your view, on the cheap.
If the board (or the Lansdown family) were desperate, they would have grasped the nettle and appointed someone who would significantly increase the chances of that happening. You know, someone with a track record, someone proven, someone with a great reputation etc. Now I'm not saying that should be Hughton, but if you're desperate (as you suggest) and an obvious solution to your desperation pops up in front of you then surely you take it... Unless of course your judgement is impaired and you are taking the advice of someone who sees their power base being eroded.....

I think that talk of power bases and the like is nonsense. They all want success and they are following a plan. You seem to not accept the fact that maybe they have chosen the best candidate for the job. We do not yet know who that is.

[Colemanballs]

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Probably not for the first - or last time!

I was wrong. You clearly think you are doing a job defending the board but any intelligence (artificial or otherwise) would have realised quite quickly that you're actually being antagonistic and winding up fans, adding to the already negative perception. 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Reportedly now down to two, Hughton or Holden. I would have thought Holden would suit the pessimists on here, with low expectations and the chance to say I told you so. If Hughton the pressure to deliver would be immense. If he didn't deliver the promised land could OTIB handle the disappointment and/or anger generated. Might be worth keeping a few telephone numbers handy for those who might need help. 

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, Colemanballs said:

I was wrong. You clearly think you are doing a job defending the board but any intelligence (artificial or otherwise) would have realised quite quickly that you're actually being antagonistic and winding up fans, adding to the already negative perception. 

Not at all. I just think that the only people "in the know" are the board. The fans are making up stuff. I have no idea if it will be DH or CH - but I trust the board to do what is best in the circumstances.

[Davo370]

19 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Reports of numbers of applications and GMG writing about second interviews and the like. If you disagree, how do you know that there was not a proper process??

Surely a proper process would not lead to someone as inexperienced as Dean Holden.

[RedorDead BCFC]

11 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Maybe key people were not available in a timely fashion and that has compounded delays. I believe DH has been away - probably his last chance for family time for the best part of a year, if he has got the job.

How long do these interviews take? 
This is now drawn out too long and even though you’re defending Holden to the bitter end. Can you honestly say that if he was the chosen one all along it would of taken this long to appoint. 
It is looking like we chased Plan A, B, C and now we are on Plan F. 
I actually feel sorry for Dean, knowing he got chosen not on his knowledge or experience but down to the fact the board are becoming incompetent and stubborn to go with experience in the manager position. 

[glen humphries]

3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Not at all. I just think that the only people "in the know" are the board. The fans are making up stuff. I have no idea if it will be DH or CH - but I trust the board to do what is best in the circumstances.

You seem to have a case of blind faith, do you honestly believe this whole process hasn’t been a total shambles, I get the feeling we could appoint Ian Holloway and you’d be all for it .

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, RedorDead BCFC said:

How long do these interviews take? 
This is now drawn out too long and even though you’re defending Holden to the bitter end. Can you honestly say that if he was the chosen one all along it would of taken this long to appoint. 
It is looking like we chased Plan A, B, C and now we are on Plan F. 
I actually feel sorry for Dean, knowing he got chosen not on his knowledge or experience but down to the fact the board are becoming incompetent. 

I keep trying to add "if it is DH" with if being the operative word. We have no idea what is going on but I trust the experienced and smart people on the board to make the right decision and I will support the chosen person because I have no choice - I cannot stop supporting Bristol City.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

7 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Not at all. I just think that the only people "in the know" are the board. The fans are making up stuff. I have no idea if it will be DH or CH - but I trust the board to do what is best in the circumstances.

I wouldn't trust them to tie their own shoelaces.

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, glen humphries said:

You seem to have a case of blind faith, do you honestly believe this whole process hasn’t been a total shambles, I get the feeling we could appoint Ian Holloway and you’d be all for it .

I could say that you have blind faith that it has been a shambles. I have no idea what the truth is - and I suspect that you have no "inside track" on the operation of the board. Yes I have faith that those in authority at AG will try to do their best and make a good decision. Straight from the philosophy of Socrates!!

[mozo]

14 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Mark Ashton seems to be a chap who likes managerial process and protocols and with the reports (albeit from people like GMG!) I simply thought that it was all being done properly.  I have seen no evidence to suggest that it was not but there have been a lot of disappointed posters suggesting all kinds of nonsense.  None of us know anything - or even if DH is the chosen one. We must be patient for a bit longer.

The only difference between your more positive stance, and the stance of the majority, is that you're putting trust in the City board to do the right things and make the right decisions. 

I suppose time will tell if that trust is well-placed or mis-placed, although you may choose to back them regardless of how well or badly things go on the pitch.