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Dean Holden (Merged)


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If we appoint Holden I will...   

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10 minutes ago, daored said:

Would b interesting in LJ’s thoughts about all this. I’ve said this on another post but as a coach how many of our players have actually improved under this coaching set up. The style of football this season and last has been poor and Holden has been apart of that. I think most would accept the appointment if we’d been playing good football and can see improvement in players but there’s no evidence of that being the case.

Surely an appointment today ?

I agree, it's a massive concern. I'm clinging to the hope that they were all coaching within LJs complicated structure/tactics which seemed overly focused on the opposition, and seemed to restrict the players of any freedom or ability to think for themselves.  

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On 04/08/2020 at 15:24, ChippenhamRed said:

It’s not unreasonable to assume we might not have been able to afford Chris Hughton.

But if it’s Holden, there needs to be a bloody good reason why we haven’t appointed Paul Cook. He has a decent CV and I’m struggling to accept we weren’t able to pay him what he wanted given the previous clubs he’s managed.

Impossible not to see this as an abject failure however you look at it, if we end up with Holden.

Fulham have demonstrated that promotion from within can be a positive, so you can fully understand the board's dilemma. Holdens  appointment if it happens will be a disappointment to the fans ..but he has done nothing wrong, he has the feel of the club and playing staff, so can hit the ground running. Given the short period between seasons that has to be a consideration, along with costs in realation to salary. I would rather money be spent on new players as opposed to feathering the nests of millionaire ex prem managers. 

Not sexy, but very sensible.

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19 minutes ago, daored said:

Would b interesting in LJ’s thoughts about all this. I’ve said this on another post but as a coach how many of our players have actually improved under this coaching set up. The style of football this season and last has been poor and Holden has been apart of that. I think most would accept the appointment if we’d been playing good football and can see improvement in players but there’s no evidence of that being the case.

Surely an appointment today ?

I can't think the LJ would feel anything other than absolute betrayal.

He was told he had failed by SL.

SL then replaces him with his 2 underlings and a guy who LJ gave a decent last payday to.

 

Again - either Holden and JMac went 'yes LJ great plan' - so are part of the problem

OR:

They thought LJ was a **** but just pretended to support him until SL gave them a go.

 

Either way, they look like a trio of chancers.

No wonder the players who are staying reportedly like the idea - the good ones are leaving, or have gone back on from loan.

Anyone see DaSilva, Baker, Moore,Massengo,Nagy,Palmer, Bentley or Kalas staying after this appointment?

 

They will want success with their wages, and all would be picked up by a top half championship team.

 

Leaving the 'busy-bees' who of course love the 3 new amigos - they can carrying on stealing a wage.

Andi W, O'Dowda, Patterson, Wells and Hunt start every week.

I'd rather Watkins and Rowe played - at least they try.

Could be a long season if this happens.

 

I cannot believe what SL has done to LJ if true....

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7 hours ago, Harry said:

I think Holden will do well. 

 

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

Are you just saying that?

If memory serves, four and a half years back, in the midst and the eye of a now familiar OTIB fury and storm four - and a furious, foamingThatch35 - Harry did head into that wind and opine: "this could work." as all around laid waste to the unfolding realisation that LJ was coming back.

And it's what this forum badly needs. 

Only, what does "do well" mean? Not be relegated? Finish top six? Get over the line? Like "could work," "do well" is a little vague, and we demand more detail....

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8 minutes ago, daored said:

 I think most would accept the appointment if we’d been playing good football and can see improvement in players but there’s no evidence of that being the case.

 

But, if we had been playing good football and seen an improvement in players.... Lee Johnson wouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

 

If memory serves, four and a half years back, in the midst and the eye of a now familiar OTIB fury and storm four - and a furious, foamingThatch35 - Harry did head into that wind and opine: "this could work." as all around laid waste to the unfolding realisation that LJ was coming back.

And it's what this forum badly needs. 

Only, what does "do well" mean? Not be relegated? Finish top six? Get over the line? Like "could work," "do well" is a little vague, and we demand more detail....

In the context of this thread, it appears Holden will have “done well” if he’s not single handedly responsible for a second spike of coronavirus and the bankruptcy of the club.

The bar for expectations is low and that may be intentional on the clubs part

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My frustration is not the thought of us appointing Holden. I think in the current circumstances it probably makes sense and although people say he was part of a failed time under Johnson I think that’s unfair. We improved as a squad and club under Johnson’s regime. The issue with Johnson is he seemed to lose some of the dressing room, notably Palmer and Eliasson. But also by previously shifting on popular Important players Like Pack and Pato (on loan), I got the sense he realised it was getting stale and the players were beginning to not listen to his corporate over complicated language. I think in the last few games we did get a sense that Holden would do things his own way and was able to mix it up a bit. If he was immediately appointed permanent manager after Lee’s sacking I think, while being a little disappointed, the vast majority of fans would understand the current situation and accept it. 
 

The frustration comes in the ridiculous time it has taken. If it is true that this announcement is on hold because Holden is on holiday in Kent that that is so bizarre and tin pot it becomes quite a major worry. It’s not like he’s being promoted to manager of Asda. He is going to become the figurehead of club with a huge following that deserve to be kept in the loop. 3/4 hour drive, quick press conference and he would be back in his caravan the same day. The time this has taken to be announced does not make sense and suggests there have been major issues and failings in this process. Probably failings that we will never be told but until we are the criticism of Ashton and Jon Lansdown will rightly continue.  

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14 minutes ago, SX227 said:

I can't think the LJ would feel anything other than absolute betrayal.

He was told he had failed by SL.

SL then replaces him with his 2 underlings and a guy who LJ gave a decent last payday to.

 

Again - either Holden and JMac went 'yes LJ great plan' - so are part of the problem

OR:

They thought LJ was a **** but just pretended to support him until SL gave them a go.

 

Either way, they look like a trio of chancers.

No wonder the players who are staying reportedly like the idea - the good ones are leaving, or have gone back on from loan.

Anyone see DaSilva, Baker, Moore,Massengo,Nagy,Palmer, Bentley or Kalas staying after this appointment?

 

They will want success with their wages, and all would be picked up by a top half championship team.

 

Leaving the 'busy-bees' who of course love the 3 new amigos - they can carrying on stealing a wage.

Andi W, O'Dowda, Patterson, Wells and Hunt start every week.

I'd rather Watkins and Rowe played - at least they try.

Could be a long season if this happens.

 

I cannot believe what SL has done to LJ if true....

Morning Lee.

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If Holden gets appointed then it tells us all we need to know... means City are in fear of breaching FFP.

The lack of fans being able to attend, the increased value of players being brought last year and their increased wages of a bloated squad. 

Hughton would be on more money and wanting money spent on the squad that we can’t afford.

Yes Lansdown is a billionaire, however he can only put so much into the club within FFP, that’s the reason he’s developed the stadium to increase revenues.

I'm expecting at least 7 players out the door and only free transfers in.

Feel that if the appointment of Holden doesn’t work then there will be more heads that leave. Ashton being one of them.

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Not getting the problem with Williams. He has played most of his career in the Premier and being a coach is the first step towards management. Dont even have a massive problem with Holden and hope he surprises us. My problem is we were sold down the river with the brief laid out by Lansdown and Ashton and were expecting a manager with pedigree to help us get up.

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31 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Good maths!  Remind me how long ago Liverpool won the league before this season?

It was a long time. But they also won the Champions League twice, FA cup and League Cup as well as two more Champions League finals, a Europa League final, FA and League cup finals and coming close to the Premier League a number of times. 
 

A lot more exciting than mid table pretty much every season for the past 35 years, which I think is @Galway Red’s point 

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1 minute ago, BlowerBCFC said:

If Holden gets appointed then it tells us all we need to know... means City are in fear of breaching FFP.

The lack of fans being able to attend, the increased value of players being brought last year and their increased wages of a bloated squad. 

Hughton would be on more money and wanting money spent on the squad that we can’t afford.

Yes Lansdown is a billionaire, however he can only put so much into the club within FFP, that’s the reason he’s developed the stadium to increase revenues.

I'm expecting at least 7 players out the door and only free transfers in.

Feel that if the appointment of Holden doesn’t work then there will be more heads that leave. Ashton being one of them.

Sorry this just doesn’t wash. Why didn’t we just keep Johnson then? Why have we waited 5 weeks to appoint his lackeys? Lansdown messages about bringing in a proven manager.

im sure in what you’ve said above is how they will spin it but anyone can see its pure bullshit 

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8 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

He hasn't been appointed yet but, if he is, why not withhold judgement and wait to see the kind of football DH plays, the league position after 10 to 15 games, how key players within the squad play and the type of players recruited?

It was only five games and not too much can be read into it,  but I thought players such as Paterson, Desilva, Benkovic, Vyner, Kallas & Weimann all improved and played with a bit of freedom.

Getting to the Premiership has to be the aim but, even if it isn't achieved initially,  seeing talented young players getting a chance in an attacking philosophy and a consistent formation with a mid-table position can't be that bad can it.  That's probably the worst case scenario under DH as I suspect with a couple of additions we'll still challenge for the play-offs.

Was OTIB around when the Aussies came up with the term 'whinging poms'?

 

I can’t speak for everyone but of course I would withhold judgement. I thought he did ok in his 5 games.
 

My anger is simply how the head coach search has played out. We get SL saying we want to take the next step. We get Hughton saying he is interested. Then we get bits saying that interest is mutual.

Then the Gerrard thing for a week.

Then slowly for 2 weeks we get little bits about DH. Now we are here with his appointment basically imminent and seemingly the board using Gregor McGregor to release a couple tweets a day about all the positives of DH.

To go from take the next step to premier league football to DH is a smack in the face to supporters regardless if DH is a success or not. Internal appointments are fine if someone amazing has left the building on good terms. This isn’t the case though as DH was part of the setup that lost LJ his job. 

8 hours ago, Harry said:

I think Holden will do well. 

I am not convinced he makes us relegation contenders like some. Just don’t think he is next step to PL

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Looks like Gregor was on the money doesn’t it?  He gets a bad “press” on OTIB, but he’s been pretty aligned with Kid all the way through.

Ashley Williams has been really good off the pitch with the young players.  If true I think it’s a clever appointment by Holden.  It brings an outsider (in terms of Macca being a SL man from previous comments) into the fold.  Wonder if they knew of each other when Dean was at Oldham and Ashley was at Stockport?  Plus wouldn’t surprise me if Macca leaves at some point too, e.g. if LJ gets a job.  Means Holden has some continuity.

I just think they jumped the gun.  City interviewed him, was probably the top choice, 2+2 = Announce Hughton....but it’s all went pear-shaped.

What if the club came out and said something along the lines of:-

We have been chasing some high calibre candidates, but in light of the recent redundancies in Ashton Gate Limited which are a key part of our “family” we felt it was wrong to then go out and employ a new manager on £1m+.  Therefore we’ve decided to promote from within to show some solidarity.

I don’t believe they will, but would it make people reflect differently?  And, yes, I know covid has been around longer than when LJ was dismissed, but maybe some of the financials depended on fans returning, conferences etc....and the recent cancellations of the sporting pilots have now been fully understood or at least calculated with a better degree of confidence.

Re wage cap, Ashton on EFL, maybe he has a feel for the vote?

Agree, but that’s not his OTIB works is it ??‍♂️

Are you just saying that?

No problem with Ashley Williams being a coach. Hell I feel it brings a real presence to the club to have someone like that as a coach. Lets be fair Johnson, Holden and Mcallister had solid careers but at lower levels. Best case, is it fair to say, lower half champ players? Ashley Williams playing career blows them out of the water and certainly no championship player can look at him and think he doesn’t know what he is on about. I know in tough times, if I was a player, I might look at LJ or DH and think you were never at this level so do you onow what you are on about. Maybe I’d be a Tomlin though ?

As for the spin the club may come out with, I can’t forgive this whole process. I have made my feelings known as to why. No need to come out on talksport interviews and say what was said then end up with DH. I don’t think a salary cap or anything like that is relevant to the discussion. We have already shed LJ salary along with Williams, Smith, Afobe, Periera, Wright and Matty Taylor. You get the proven coach in and he makes the 7k a week player play like a 20k a week player. 

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1 minute ago, JoeAman08 said:

I can’t speak for everyone but of course I would withhold judgement. I thought he did ok in his 5 games.
 

My anger is simply how the head coach search has played out. We get SL saying we want to take the next step. We get Hughton saying he is interested. Then we get bits saying that interest is mutual.

Then the Gerrard thing for a week.

Then slowly for 2 weeks we get little bits about DH. Now we are here with his appointment basically imminent and seemingly the board using Gregor McGregor to release a couple tweets a day about all the positives of DH.

To go from take the next step to premier league football to DH is a smack in the face to supporters regardless if DH is a success or not. Internal appointments are fine if someone amazing has left the building on good terms. This isn’t the case though as DH was part of the setup that lost LJ his job. 

I am not convinced he makes us relegation contenders like some. Just don’t think he is next step to PL

No problem with Ashley Williams being a coach. Hell I feel it brings a real presence to the club to have someone like that as a coach. Lets be fair Johnson, Holden and Mcallister had solid careers but at lower levels. Best case, is it fair to say, lower half champ players? Ashley Williams playing career blows them out of the water and certainly no championship player can look at him and think he doesn’t know what he is on about. I know in tough times, if I was a player, I might look at LJ or DH and think you were never at this level so do you onow what you are on about. Maybe I’d be a Tomlin though ?

As for the spin the club may come out with, I can’t forgive this whole process. I have made my feelings known as to why. No need to come out on talksport interviews and say what was said then end up with DH. I don’t think a salary cap or anything like that is relevant to the discussion. We have already shed LJ salary along with Williams, Smith, Afobe, Periera, Wright and Matty Taylor. You get the proven coach in and he makes the 7k a week player play like a 20k a week player. 

No more likes but exactly this Joe.

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I strongly suspect that Holden was not the Board’s first choice. If this was the case, he would have been offered the role weeks ago. 

Instead, I suspect that the Board have been involved in detailed conversations with potentially a number of different people, but have unable to come to an agreement (whether due to salary, transfer budgets or recruitment control, we can only speculate).

However, it can’t be good for Holden’s confidence to know the Board didn’t really want him and is considered the cheap option by most fans.

Not exactly the best start to a new job, and he hasn’t even been appointed yet!

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19 minutes ago, SX227 said:

I can't think the LJ would feel anything other than absolute betrayal.

He was told he had failed by SL.

SL then replaces him with his 2 underlings and a guy who LJ gave a decent last payday to.

 

Again - either Holden and JMac went 'yes LJ great plan' - so are part of the problem

OR:

They thought LJ was a **** but just pretended to support him until SL gave them a go.

 

Either way, they look like a trio of chancers.

No wonder the players who are staying reportedly like the idea - the good ones are leaving, or have gone back on from loan.

Anyone see DaSilva, Baker, Moore,Massengo,Nagy,Palmer, Bentley or Kalas staying after this appointment?

 

They will want success with their wages, and all would be picked up by a top half championship team.

 

Leaving the 'busy-bees' who of course love the 3 new amigos - they can carrying on stealing a wage.

Andi W, O'Dowda, Patterson, Wells and Hunt start every week.

I'd rather Watkins and Rowe played - at least they try.

Could be a long season if this happens.

 

I cannot believe what SL has done to LJ if true....

God bless you - I thought nobody else had realised that the likes of Pato and Wiemann will be well up for this; they have found somebody else naive enough to think players of their abilities can bring success.
 

More chance of me successful sustaining an erection watching a Susan Boyle concert !!

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4 minutes ago, citywest30 said:

Not getting the problem with Williams. He has played most of his career in the Premier and being a coach is the first step towards management. Dont even have a massive problem with Holden and hope he surprises us. My problem is we were sold down the river with the brief laid out by Lansdown and Ashton and were expecting a manager with pedigree to help us get up.

To me the problem is this.

We don’t even have the wit to go outside the club for a single member of the coaching staff.

It isn’t called the cosy club for nothing.

When Millen was appointed after Coppell walked, the first thing he did was bring in Steve Wigley as his assistant who had coached at half a dozen other clubs & was clearly going to look at things with a fresh pair of eyes.

We are so small time & incredibly insular.

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24 minutes ago, Blackbird1 said:

Fulham have demonstrated that promotion from within can be a positive, so you can fully understand the board's dilemma. Holdens  appointment if it happens will be a disappointment to the fans ..but he has done nothing wrong, he has the feel of the club and playing staff, so can hit the ground running. Given the short period between seasons that has to be a consideration, along with costs in realation to salary. I would rather money be spent on new players as opposed to feathering the nests of millionaire ex prem managers. 

Not sexy, but very sensible.

Yes but the underlying issue is having a person who knows what to do with these new players, how to integrate them into the team, and get the best out of the squad. I would’ve thought experience was more important. 
 

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4 minutes ago, Ron Swanson said:

Sorry this just doesn’t wash. Why didn’t we just keep Johnson then? Why have we waited 5 weeks to appoint his lackeys? Lansdown messages about bringing in a proven manager.

im sure in what you’ve said above is how they will spin it but anyone can see its pure bullshit 

Cheapest option was to always keep LJ for another season if the clubs skint. Only reason for getting rid would have been if he refused to play some kids next season.

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28 minutes ago, 42nite said:

But, if we had been playing good football and seen an improvement in players.... Lee Johnson wouldn't have been sacked in the first place. 

 

Valid point , sorry I should have expanded to see if lee had left us for another club 

@JoeAman08has articulated this much better in his post then me

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5 minutes ago, SedRA said:

It was a long time. But they also won the Champions League twice, FA cup and League Cup as well as two more Champions League finals, a Europa League final, FA and League cup finals and coming close to the Premier League a number of times. 
 

A lot more exciting than mid table pretty much every season for the past 35 years, which I think is @Galway Red’s point 

And my point is that you can’t say Everton are pointless and forever in Liverpool’s shadow (everyone except Man Utd fall into this don’t they?) with zero chance of top six (They’ve played champs league and europa league previously and if Wolves Or Burnley can get there anyone can) when actually they have a pretty good history (better than most clubs including Man City and Chelsea I would think), and although have been fallow in prem era (as have Liverpool compared to their own very high standards) there are clear signs of change with a new stadium and a recognised quality manager

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47 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

What, apart from Oldham?  And one thing I do know is that the players have got an awful lot of respect for Holden...

Yea all 11 games. Oh and 4 as caretaker. If you add the 5 as caretaker for us he has now amassed a whopping 20 games as a manager. I for one am comforted by the fact that the man for our big promotion push will have a 20 game headstart as a manager than say if city employed any tom dick or harry from OTIB. Perhaps I could go for it?? I have no managerial experience but I am only 20 games behind!!

 

Edit: just checked and he has a solid 25% win rate from those 20 games. So DH has overseen 5 wins from 20.

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5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

To me the problem is this.

We don’t even have the wit to go outside the club for a single member of the coaching staff.

It isn’t called the cosy club for nothing.

When Millen was appointed after Coppell walked, the first thing he did was bring in Steve Wigley as his assistant who had coached at half a dozen other clubs & was clearly going to look at things with a fresh pair of eyes.

We are so small time & incredibly insular.

Absolutely right. And the fact that Gregor is linking Cole Skuse to a coaching job here illustrates that further. Another lovely young man, son in law material if you will, who is known to SL and who would come in and not rock the boat if appointed. Skuse probably won’t happen but it’s exactly the kind of decision we would make. 

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4 minutes ago, man in the middle said:

Cheapest option was to always keep LJ for another season if the clubs skint. Only reason for getting rid would have been if he refused to play some kids next season.

Is it always the coach’s decision though? I feel MA had more of an input than many people thought. Why did Pato go out on loan? Why did CoD keep his place in the team? It was a shambles last season, and that wasn’t only the team selection 

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8 hours ago, Harry said:

I think Holden will do well. 

I suppose it depends how you define “well”, although I couldn’t be any more against him being appointed, I genuinely don’t think that we will struggle to stay up next season.

For a start Sheffield Wednesday have to get 13 points more than we do to finish above us & is anyone seriously suggesting Wycombe or Rotherham will finish above us?

However we are told our aim is to get into The Premiership & I cannot see any logic that would make anyone think this appointment will do that.

I expect a finish somewhere between 12th & 14th, which if you think we will struggle is doing “well” but in the context of our stated ambitions is obviously not.

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