Dean Holden (Merged)

[steviestevieneville]

1 minute ago, Chappers said:

Who knows? If he is named as our manager you can either spontaneously combust with annoyance or just get over it and see how it goes. 
As for my reasons stacking up, we have lots of costs and minimal income, no indication of when/ if normality returns. Or even if the season will complete. Therefore a manager who can work with the contracted players makes a lot of sense right now. Just upsets a lot of people who want a Billy Big Boots at huge cost thinking he will cast a magic spell!

Again , Completely ignoring my point. If SL camp out straight after sacking LJ and said because of covid , belts will be tightened . We’ll be going with Holden in charge etc etc . I think most fans would be ok with it . But no, we had a song and dance about prem football ASAP , manager for the next level blah blah blah. That statement from the horses mouth was three weeks ago . He’s made himself look ridiculous and a large reason so many are pissed off is because Lansdown himself raised expectations with his cock and bull story. 

[steviestevieneville]

26 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Because most sensible fans can’t be arsed arguing with the made up carp being posted

Sensible fans gullible fans you mean that will put up with being led down the garden path 

[ChippenhamRed]

14 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Who knows? If he is named as our manager you can either spontaneously combust with annoyance or just get over it and see how it goes. 
As for my reasons stacking up, we have lots of costs and minimal income, no indication of when/ if normality returns. Or even if the season will complete. Therefore a manager who can work with the contracted players makes a lot of sense right now. Just upsets a lot of people who want a Billy Big Boots at huge cost thinking he will cast a magic spell!

I vote for spontaneous combustion.

[Scrumpys Dietary Advisor..]

I was really, really hoping that the lengthy delay would culminate in our very own Bielsa moment, something to make us all go "wow, didn't see that coming"

Sadly, if the latest rumour is even remotely under consideration, it seems more and more likely that it will be a Fred Karno's circus moment....

[Slack]

Two theories

1. They leaked it on purpose, as we may of offered the job to someone who is holding out and we are trying to use this to push things along

2. Bristol Live have just created the best click bait and everyone's falling for it, up until now club haven't really given Gregor any serious news ... So why now? The club has kept everything so quiet until now, can't see why they'd break the news early

It doesn't seem right, so I wouldn't panic, just wait and see what happens.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Chappers said:

Who knows? If he is named as our manager you can either spontaneously combust with annoyance or just get over it and see how it goes. 
As for my reasons stacking up, we have lots of costs and minimal income, no indication of when/ if normality returns. Or even if the season will complete. Therefore a manager who can work with the contracted players makes a lot of sense right now. Just upsets a lot of people who want a Billy Big Boots at huge cost thinking he will cast a magic spell!

I don't buy into the BS and hysteria that is taking place on OTIB at the moment in regards to the managers, to a certain extent it's quite amusing that grown people are getting so excited about it.

However, some of your points are just as amusing and dramatic.

What is upsetting people is this drawn out selection process. It is leading to the rumour mill getting out of control and if DH is going to be put in charge, the question has to be: If cost, minimal income etc. were major concerns, why the extended selection process to chose a candidate that should have been obvious (all of these criteria would have been known up front, along with some of the candidate reputations, costs etc.)?

If DH is appointed, then I'll be disappointed because, in my view, it shows a lack of ambition.

 

[Red Skin]

Take some celery, carrots, onions, salt, pepper and the bones of Ken Dodd.  Bring to boil, cover and simmer for an hour. 

[Dan Robin]

A) 1 year deal caused by Covid financial effects, with the intention of searching a better profile for the following season(s) = not happy but I'd try to understand the situation.

B) a longer contract because the club thinks he's a great option = I'd be extremely disappointed.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 minute ago, Dan Robin said:

A) 1 year deal caused by Covid financial effects, with the intention of searching a better profile when the situation will change = not happy but I'd try to understand the situation.

B) a longer contract because the club thinks he's a great option = I'd be extremely disappointed.

A) would essentially mean it was pointless to sack LJ and still leaves the question of what the hell they’ve spent the last 5 weeks doing.

[Dan Robin]

Well, Holden can have many common points with LJ, but he's not the same person and not necessarily a worse option...especially if compared to the possibility of continuing with Lee without having faith in him/giving him the same support he had previously.

About the mistery of the last 5 weeks...I agree more: maybe some managers would cost us too much right now, maybe others who were interviewed didn't fully convince MA and the board...but returning to the initial point and give the job to the caretaker would be really strange IF the reason is not economical.

[TheCulturalBomb]

If you were employing someone for a management position within a company and you knew that 95% of the people below the position wouldn't want said person in the job. Would you employ them?

[Wade Wilson]

Honestly I just want it all to end. Please. 

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Slack said:

Two theories

1. They leaked it on purpose, as we may of offered the job to someone who is holding out and we are trying to use this to push things along

2. Bristol Live have just created the best click bait and everyone's falling for it, up until now club haven't really given Gregor any serious news ... So why now? The club has kept everything so quiet until now, can't see why they'd break the news early

It doesn't seem right, so I wouldn't panic, just wait and see what happens.

 

The trouble with both those options are they are a bit like conspiracy theories which suggest the US or UK government use cunning and subterfuge to attain their goals. Neither are clever or competent enough to work anything like that - and nor are the executive of BCFC in my opinion. 

[Red_Alligator]

18 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

If you were employing someone for a management position within a company and you knew that 95% of the people below the position wouldn't want said person in the job. Would you employ them?

Maybe 95% of the players have said that they want to maintain the status quo?? 

[Chappers]

13 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

If you were employing someone for a management position within a company and you knew that 95% of the people below the position wouldn't want said person in the job. Would you employ them?

If I held the purse strings, the Club was relying on my support to survive the COVID/ economic crisis and I thought it was the right decision, then yes. It’s not 95% it’s a small, vocal minority, made a lot worse by the hysterical garbage on here, and you know that if results are good, most will return.

Sorry I can’t join in this hysterical negativity, I’ll decide how good the new manager is after about half a season... If we even get that. 

[EnderMB]

33 minutes ago, TheCulturalBomb said:

If you were employing someone for a management position within a company and you knew that 95% of the people below the position wouldn't want said person in the job. Would you employ them?

I'd say a better analogy is this:

If you worked for a manager that consistently made bad decisions, and refused to fix long-standing problems over implementing cheap solutions, would you leave?

In this scenario, the manager is the owner, and the employees are the players and fans.

It's no wonder why we sell players, and it'll be no wonder why we may potentially have to sell in this window if we hire Holden. As I've said elsewhere, it's a statement, and if a player has been pushed to sign for us on the promise of making it to the Premier League they'll certainly rethink that statement.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

If Hughton is appointed, I'd definitely consider getting a season ticket again (have had a 4 year break after 14 years with an ST).

If it's Holden - no ST.

If it's Cook - no ST.

 

I'm probably not alone in this feeling/opinion. So I'd suggest extra-revenue means extra ticket sales (when it's safe for us to all go back to AG).

What's wrong with Cook tbh?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I'm growing tired of this now. The fact is that neither you, I or anyone else on this forum knows that DH will fail if he's appointed. I understand you may wish it as it would credence to your prejudice against LJ and those he surrounded himself with. While he still wouldn't be my choice I saw enough of the games after LJs sacking to suggest DH may go down a different path. The results may not have been as successful as hoped but he had little time to prepare following LJs dismissal. In any event, as often pointed out on this forum in regards to other clubs sacking managers, it would be wrong to draw too many conclusions on a handful of games. If he's appointed, which is still not yet certain, and he gets us promoted I presume you'll be as quick to eat humble pie as you'll be to say I told you so. 

Dean Holden is not my number one choice...at all.  He’s way down the list.

I don’t generally subscribe to promoting internally after a sacking....after a manager is poached is very different, e.g. Shakespeare after Ranieri Sacked, eventually it all turned sour in the same way it did for Claudio.  Frank for Dean Smith after poached by Villa, difficult start followed by progress.

But like you I was impressed what Holden did in five games as caretaker.  Had we appointed him straight off the bat, I’d be thinking differently, but he’s actually now had chance to show what he can do.

We can tar Holden with being part of LJ’s set up, I think that’s fair, and question why his thoughts re system and personnel didn’t find their way into what we saw on a Saturday or Tuesday...and then why that (His ideas being ignored) didn’t become an issue.  I’ll give him some benefit of doubt, because he might’ve been storing all of those experiences away ready for when he got a chance to make his own decisions.  

There are a lot of unknowns.

I think it is a big risk to appoint Holden, but I think all appointments are.

If Hughton and whoever genuinely can’t get a set up they believe is workable (whoever’s fault that is) then we shouldn’t appoint them.

I’m more receptive to Holden that 99% on here.  I have no issues with the 99%, your views make a lot of sense

Finally for a bit of devil’s advocacy - Maybe Macca always sided with LJ and he lost every vote?  What if Holden wants Williams as his assistant rather than Macca?  Why did Holden get the caretaker role when Macca has been quoted by SL as “future City manager”?

[Globe Trotter]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What's wrong with Cook tbh?

Personally...I don’t think there’s anything wrong with him as such - clearly he’s had success at a lower level and did a good job at Wigan. 

But after SL stated promotion to the Premier League is our aim it seems odd to then appoint someone with no top level championship or premier league managerial experience when Hughton, McCarthy and others are / were available. 

I think for Cook managing City would be a big step up and would represent more of a gamble for us.

While of course by appointing CH there’s no guarantee of success the risk in my opinion would be smaller and would show the supporters and wider footballing world that we’re serious about moving up. 

[Med/MadHatter]

2 hours ago, Magger1 said:

Can this even be true ,a man who was part of Johnson’s failure and when stepped up won only 2 games of 6 , in which 3 of those games we had only 1shot on target , who is this man ,what has he done ,why interview proven managers if you can’t afford them , no I think truth is his new toy is rugby and football he’s happy if we keep producing young players to only sell .This isn’t what fans who struggle to make ends meet want ,we the paying suffering public want OUR. club to move forward,so why appoint a man with no experience doesnt make sense , prepare to have a lot of season ticket holders demand refunds after all fans are getting used to no football, this appointment will not create excitement to draw the fans back , I’ll be staying in pub 

good bye the club I loved 

Bang on Stevie

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

Bang on Stevie

@Magger1It was 2 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss in 5 games gaining 8 points, just to be picky.

[Red-Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Magger1It was 2 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss in 5 games gaining 8 points, just to be picky.

Context is important. 

Two wins: one against the club with the worst form in the league, who'd only won once since 4th January;  second win against a hopelessly inconsistent side who scored ever fewer goals than us and were then in 18th place. 

[TomThumb84]

Hi all, I’ve been a long time reader of this forum, and a City supporter since my Dad and Grandad took me to my first game in 1984-85 (City 2-0 Wigan Ath) and I have never felt as disillusioned as I do with the club as I do right now, and I also didn’t think I would ever sign up and post here.
 

My reasons are this: I have seen and experienced mixed times as a City fan, as many of my age will, however through my 35 years as a fan I don’t think we have ever been as well placed as we are now to push on. 

I understand that we may never reach the highs of the late 70’s (these are the stories from the old man), or the 89-90 side of Taylor, Turner and Shelts, and Smudge and Gav (my fave side) ...... and in turn thankfully the lows of the early 80’s (vague memories) and I appreciate the game has changed, but I cannot however understand or accept the current set of circumstances surrounding the Managerial/Head Coach appointment.

My opinion, and it’s worth nothing here, other then my 35 years supporting City and a slightly better than average amateur football career and knowledge is this:

Whoever gets this job (and I think many have probably turned it down) takes it on the basis of working in a structure within a club that is unique, unprecedented and bizarre, and that is why we are where we are;

City will also cite the unusual circumstances around finances in the current world climate as a justification for the appointment although other clubs have not and will not;

The potential new Head Coach/Manager will be expected to work with an unfamiliar (and arguably under-performing/untested) backroom staff without being able to bring their own guys in;

The “new” guy will have to work with a CEO who may be impressive (and he certainly is in certain corporate environments) but also all-encompassing, over-bearing and acutely aware of the fragility of his own position and protecting that; and let’s be honest, has at least a 50/50 a sign-off on transfers;

Coaching badges, knowing the players, youth confidante etc means nothing in this scenario, it’s hierarchy awareness that counts; 

So, as unpopular as it is, City may be on the verge of making  possibly the most dissatisfying and underwhelming appointment of my lifetime? Why? Not because Dean Holden couldn’t do the job, if (and when) he is appointed he may be brilliant success, and I’ll wish him well, but, because, he’s not what was suggested, sign-posted, intimated or promised. It’s a customer/consumer world and trust is king. People have long memories and the words of Steve Lansdown and also the now diluted patter of Mark Ashton are on record re: proven guys/next level etc....

If it is Holden, how can that justifiably be a step forward from the previous regime, that he was not just a bit-player In, but a major part?;

Do I think this is unexpected? Nope. We have a habit of doing the same thing when we are in touching distance of the top level. Never more so than now.

The Lansdown era will perhaps be the period of time that will be remembered  by City owing him so much and not being able to do without the guy, but also being the man who couldn’t push us on despite his backing and therefore holding us back more than ever. 

Anyway I may make 5 posts before I’ve had enough but that’s my bit! 
 
x

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, Galway Red said:

No big deal but it was 8-0 at h/t

Nope, it was 7-0.

[Galway Red]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Dean Holden is not my number one choice...at all.  He’s way down the list.

I don’t generally subscribe to promoting internally after a sacking....after a manager is poached is very different, e.g. Shakespeare after Ranieri Sacked, eventually it all turned sour in the same way it did for Claudio.  Frank for Dean Smith after poached by Villa, difficult start followed by progress.

But like you I was impressed what Holden did in five games as caretaker.  Had we appointed him straight off the bat, I’d be thinking differently, but he’s actually now had chance to show what he can do.

We can tar Holden with being part of LJ’s set up, I think that’s fair, and question why his thoughts re system and personnel didn’t find their way into what we saw on a Saturday or Tuesday...and then why that (His ideas being ignored) didn’t become an issue.  I’ll give him some benefit of doubt, because he might’ve been storing all of those experiences away ready for when he got a chance to make his own decisions.  

There are a lot of unknowns.

I think it is a big risk to appoint Holden, but I think all appointments are.

If Hughton and whoever genuinely can’t get a set up they believe is workable (whoever’s fault that is) then we shouldn’t appoint them.

I’m more receptive to Holden that 99% on here.  I have no issues with the 99%, your views make a lot of sense

Finally for a bit of devil’s advocacy - Maybe Macca always sided with LJ and he lost every vote?  What if Holden wants Williams as his assistant rather than Macca?  Why did Holden get the caretaker role when Macca has been quoted by SL as “future City manager”?

What was it you wete impressed with? The victory against the worst team in the league who conceded 8 goals in their next game, beating a team who lost all 4 of their home games after lockdown and also managed to lose against a woeful Hull. Our performances were no better, our tactics were no better and the entertainment was as dire as ever, if DH is appointed I'll be finding something different to do on a Saturday afternoon

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Context is important. 

Two wins: one against the club with the worst form in the league, who'd only won once since 4th January;  second win against a hopelessly inconsistent side who scored ever fewer goals than us and were then in 18th place. 

So is the fact that we were 9 games without a win (two points from 27), were playing shit, etc etc.

Im fine for everyone on here to disagree, but Holden’s 5 games are dismissed too easily as being “against shit sides”.  Nobody is shit in the champ (ok, I’ll give you Hull ), but even Hull made it a difficult match because like them we were so devoid of confidence.  We lost Baker inside 5 minutes too.  Holden brought much of that back over 5 games.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Galway Red said:

What was it you wete impressed with? The victory against the worst team in the league who conceded 8 goals in their next game, beating a team who lost all 4 of their home games after lockdown and also managed to lose against a woeful Hull. Our performances were no better, our tactics were no better and the entertainment was as dire as ever, if DH is appointed I'll be finding something different to do on a Saturday afternoon

I was impressed by lots of things.

• consistent use of a system
• a coherent selection policy
• patterns of play I’d not seen in 6-9 months
• players happy to receive the ball in tight spots 
• players able to play more than one role without it seeming to impact them, because it looked they knew the plan
• willingness to give Vyner his head 
• picking Benkovic / leaving out O’Dowda

God, it wasn’t perfect, but it was a damn site better than what I’d been watching under LJ.

Good for you, hope you find something fulfilling on Saturday afternoons.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, Davefevs said:

So is the fact that we were 9 games without a win (two points from 27), were playing shit, etc etc.

Im fine for everyone on here to disagree, but Holden’s 5 games are dismissed too easily as being “against shit sides”.  Nobody is shit in the champ (ok, I’ll give you Hull ), but even Hull made it a difficult match because like them we were so devoid of confidence.  We lost Baker inside 5 minutes too.  Holden brought much of that back over 5 games.

Funnily enough, the very next weekend Wigan found Hull a bit less difficult then us.

I honestly didn't see a lot to inspire me in Holden's games in the chair.  A bit more spring in the step at first perhaps, but you get that with virtually every managerial change. We still looked disorganised, unable to interconnect, playing below our collective ability.

Maybe Holden will blossom into one of the EFL's unlikeliest of hidden managerial geniuses, but I'm unconvinced the combination of Dean + using our youngsters more will equal success. Moreover, it spells a total lack of ambition by the club. a real disconnect between what Steve Lansdown says about his ambitions for us, and what he is prepared to settle for. 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

2 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

That wasn’t your argument . Your twisting your own words . I’ve got nothing against Holden personally . No , I don’t think he’s the right appointment . The original argument was that Lansdown has gone back on his original statement if dean is appointed . That Lansdown said he wanted PREM FOOTBALL ASAP . Then looks to appoint someone with no experience at all. 
After the win at boro , I saw a naive manager in the following games . Nothing to get excited about. 
sorry you’re bored with this , but then you would be because you can’t twist a argument that makes SL come out of this with any credibility . 

I don't believe I've twisted my own words but that's your opinion and your entitled to it. I've stated all the way along that Holden wouldn't be my choice. I just don't subscribe to the view that his appointment would be a guaranteed disaster or that Hughton for example would bring guaranteed success. Personally I've come round to the idea that Cook would be the best choice. 

We all know that all manager appointments contain risks. In normal circumstances appointing someone with a proven track record would appear the sensible choice. But these are not normal circumstances. There are no supporters in grounds so other than season tickets already purchased (such as mine) there is no major revenue stream. More so than ever then in weighing up the options account has to be taken of the state of the finances for the season ahead. I have no idea what the demands of any of the candidates are and what is deemed affordable but as I have no direct influence, whether I like it or not, I have to trust in the process that provides us with a manager that the club feel can take us forward whilst ensuring in these straightened times that I still have a club to support in the years ahead. If Holden represents that then so be it. I honestly believe that English football will be very lucky if all of the current clubs in the EFL survive next season. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

Funnily enough, the very next weekend Wigan found Hull a bit less difficult then us.

probably demoralised by losing to a team in as poor form as them.  Over the previous 9 games prior to us meeting they had 5 points, we had 2 points!

I honestly didn't see a lot to inspire me in Holden's games in the chair.  A bit more spring in the step at first perhaps, but you get that with virtually every managerial change. We still looked disorganised, unable to interconnect, playing below our collective ability.

hey, that’s fine.  It’s about opinions, and explanations.  I saw lots.  Maybe I had rose tinted glasses on.

Maybe Holden will blossom into one of the EFL's unlikeliest of hidden managerial geniuses, but I'm unconvinced the combination of Dean + using our youngsters more will equal success.

I genuinely feel that the youngsters need managing carefully, it’s a squad game, and it needs a balance.  Throwing them all in would be dangerous, but it’s about managing their minutes, putting them in when it’s right, pulling them out when it’s not.  Under LJ the selection policy looked non-existent.

Moreover, it spells a total lack of ambition by the club. a real disconnect between what Steve Lansdown says about his ambitions for us, and what he is prepared to settle for.

Totally, nobody is really arguing that.