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Mark Ashton - Opinions


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Sky were  discussing the Brentford recruitment model the other day. Apparently they look around Europe for teams who are over-performing and then identify individuals within those teams who are doing well, and target them. I’m not sure how Watkins or Canos fit into that theory though. Seems to me they follow a similar model to ours but are prepared to invest more in individuals and less overall and don’t recruit players they won’t use in their first team squad. Sounds so simple.

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If we need to save money in these trying times, then let’s start by getting rid of Mark Ashton. Let’s get back to basics. The Owner gives the manager a budget for the season and then it’s up to a decent manager to get players in that he wants and hopefully can attract. Let’s be honest, do you think that players come to Ashton Gate because of MA, of course not!

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36 minutes ago, WarksRobin said:

Sky were  discussing the Brentford recruitment model the other day. Apparently they look around Europe for teams who are over-performing and then identify individuals within those teams who are doing well, and target them. I’m not sure how Watkins or Canos fit into that theory though. Seems to me they follow a similar model to ours but are prepared to invest more in individuals and less overall and don’t recruit players they won’t use in their first team squad. Sounds so simple.

Yes we’ve recruited a lot of players that haven’t made an impact on the first team

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I thought midfield recruitment  was either particularly poor last season or decent players had their natural ability stifled by LJ's set-up / on the pitch instructions.  It didn't seem balanced or a success.

Brentford is the model to follow and investment in a successful recruitment system and personnel pays off financially with results and results.   I  think fans need some clarification on how City operate and, particularly, Mark Ashton's role.  His role needs to be limited to negotiation rather than identification. There are far better better qualified people to do the latter.

Following the Brentford model also needs a coach who follows a style of play that is in tune with recruitment.  That didn't happen under LJ.

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1 hour ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

Why not take the punt on Ryan Lowe who has won 2 promotions using youth and loans playing attacking football. He would of been cheaper than Dean? 
Use the Covid issue by all means but if that was the case they should of done it in week one not four or five. 

Maybe a case of the devil you know and you all seem to be overlooking the fact that the board may think that Dean Holden is a great candidate.  Everyone is judged on the success of the enterprise, so they must think him worth a shot.

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10 hours ago, chinapig said:

A pretty good rule of thumb when recruiting is to assign 60% to the person's achievements and 40% to how well they interview.

As Dean has no achievements as a Head Coach it's pretty hard to see how he could score higher than other candidates.

So you would have no faith in the experienced, smart people who own and run the football club, who have had the opportunity so see Dean Holden develop and work over a four year period.  Are you totally convinced that you and the others on this forum know more??  I am just speculating, and I believe that the same is true for other commentators.  We simply do not know!

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Ashton has form when it comes to upsetting the fans - this was from Watford forum in 2009:

Chris the Vic 23rd October 2009 9:47 am Well if I never get anything else right, this was the exception. I attacked him openly a year plus before he went over the inept way he ran the club, bad negotiation of contracts, inept spin and generally poor decision making and boy did many of our present contributors give me stick and with two exceptions never had the good grace to apologise. If this article is confirmed it is awesome. This man more than any other damaged our club so badly we will be picking up the pieces for several years to come.

Whole article in Watford Observer makes for interesting reading. In short he sued them for breach of contract and then withdrew his claim even paying part of their costs. Make of that what you will! I wonder what due diligence SL did when appointing him as CEO:

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/4698518.former-ceo-mark-ashton-withdraws-300000-claim-against-watford-and-will-pay-part-of-the-clubs-costs/

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39 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Maybe a case of the devil you know and you all seem to be overlooking the fact that the board may think that Dean Holden is a great candidate.  Everyone is judged on the success of the enterprise, so they must think him worth a shot.

That may well be true. But if so why not do it in week one. They replaced Coppell within 24 hours with Millen. 
 

This is the bit I’m struggling with is the time taken for the appointment. If they felt he was the right man for the job what’s changed since the sacking of LJ. We had one good game against Boro who we do well against since they moved to the riverside. A nervy 2-1 finish against Hull and some draws.
 

Nothing to me has indicated that something has changed in the past 5 weeks. I know the club haven’t officially said anything regarding who has been interviewed. But they have said they were impressed with the candidates applying and saying we want to push on. So indicating that they will look to do that, not say we can do that with what we’ve got already. 
 

I know I’m coming across as needy, but at the end of the day I donate part of my salary in ST, I along with others said you keep the remainder of last years ST and already paid for this years with knowing the chances of going are slim. So surely if we are prepared to do this then the club should at least treat us respectfully and not spin or lead us into false dawns. 
 

No manager guarantees promotion, but some give you the better chance. And to me Dean might turn out good but I struggle to see it or understand what has changed in the past month. 

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2 minutes ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

That may well be true. But if so why not do it in week one. They replaced Coppell within 24 hours with Millen. 
 

This is the bit I’m struggling with is the time taken for the appointment. If they felt he was the right man for the job what’s changed since the sacking of LJ. We had one good game against Boro who we do well against since they moved to the riverside. A nervy 2-1 finish against Hull and some draws.
 

Nothing to me has indicated that something has changed in the past 5 weeks. I know the club haven’t officially said anything regarding who has been interviewed. But they have said they were impressed with the candidates applying and saying we want to push on. So indicating that they will look to do that, not say we can do that with what we’ve got already. 
 

I know I’m coming across as needy, but at the end of the day I donate part of my salary in ST, I along with others said you keep the remainder of last years ST and already paid for this years with knowing the chances of going are slim. So surely if we are prepared to do this then the club should at least treat us respectfully and not spin or lead us into false dawns. 
 

No manager guarantees promotion, but some give you the better chance. And to me Dean might turn out good but I struggle to see it and understand what has changed in the past month. 

We are in the same boat regarding season tickets.  We clearly love our football club and wish to see it flourish and prosper.  

None of us can know what is said and debated in the boardroom. The discussions may have morphed over the weeks since LJ departed and there may be an issue with financial backing.  If you consider that SL has many businesses that all depend on people working serving customers or fans, and his income from these businesses has suddenly been strangled but the expenses still have to be paid. Aside from the excellent help from the government, SL is looking at a very uncertain few (or many) months ahead. If he sold investments to bolster his businesses than he would do so when share prices are way down and he would be turning paper losses into actual losses and this would impact his future wealth and income - and his future ability to nurture his businesses.  Maybe he has decided that it is time to pull in the horns and preserve wealth for the season after next and that Dean Holden is a viable holding candidate.  But we just do not know.  Blaming everyone is not helpful because they are all trying to do their best in the circumstances.

Maybe they would have been better served by keeping Lee Johnson in place?

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1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

I thought midfield recruitment  was either particularly poor last season or decent players had their natural ability stifled by LJ's set-up / on the pitch instructions.  It didn't seem balanced or a success.

Brentford is the model to follow and investment in a successful recruitment system and personnel pays off financially with results and results.   I  think fans need some clarification on how City operate and, particularly, Mark Ashton's role.  His role needs to be limited to negotiation rather than identification. There are far better better qualified people to do the latter.

Following the Brentford model also needs a coach who follows a style of play that is in tune with recruitment.  That didn't happen under LJ.

Spot on.

Ashton’s role absolutely needs to be questioned, as does his performance in signing loads of mediocre squad fillers who clog up our wage bill.

Won’t be though.

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1 hour ago, bcfcnick said:

I thought midfield recruitment  was either particularly poor last season or decent players had their natural ability stifled by LJ's set-up / on the pitch instructions.  It didn't seem balanced or a success.

Brentford is the model to follow and investment in a successful recruitment system and personnel pays off financially with results and results.   I  think fans need some clarification on how City operate and, particularly, Mark Ashton's role.  His role needs to be limited to negotiation rather than identification. There are far better better qualified people to do the latter.

Following the Brentford model also needs a coach who follows a style of play that is in tune with recruitment.  That didn't happen under LJ.

Totally agree he seems to have far too much input into who we sign for my liking 

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2 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

I thought midfield recruitment  was either particularly poor last season or decent players had their natural ability stifled by LJ's set-up / on the pitch instructions.  It didn't seem balanced or a success.

Brentford is the model to follow and investment in a successful recruitment system and personnel pays off financially with results and results.   I  think fans need some clarification on how City operate and, particularly, Mark Ashton's role.  His role needs to be limited to negotiation rather than identification. There are far better better qualified people to do the latter.

Following the Brentford model also needs a coach who follows a style of play that is in tune with recruitment.  That didn't happen under LJ.

Coronavirus may cause their model big issues.  They rely on selling and reinvesting and don't operate a normal academy to bring young players through.

If they can't sell, or reinvest, at the same levels due to financial constraints of clubs, then the model falls apart.  They don't have young academy players to bring through so it'll be interesting to see whether they can continue to push over the next couple of seasons.

In theory our academy should ensure a pipeline of future players....

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5 hours ago, billywedlock said:

Did we fire LJ to save money ? Sorry this is complete nonsense suggesting that due to hardship we cannot afford anyone to run our team . 5 weeks ago I did not hear the financial argument  when it was clear then that we were facing a tough year ahead. Why did we go through a charade of advertising the fact we were searching for someone to take us to the next level . Then appoint someone who was part of the problem in the first place . Well firing Ashton wound free up some money and would sort out the other part of the problem at the club . 

so after an extend and extensive recruitment, with apparently global interest we decide on Holden .

you could not make up such idiotic behaviour . It has zero to do with money and everything to do with. Ashton wanting to control the club , with the Lansdown family pressing various buttons when they please .

As for the improvement under Holden , well we had nothing to play for , and in the last games , whilst there was semblances of shape , we were still pretty average . Maybe coming from such a disastrous poor level has clouded judgement .

This is a nonsense , total nonsense , and asks huge questions about Ashton , who should have been fired with LJ , and the blind spot SL has for running the football club. 
 

LJ was part of the problem but it seems no one at the club has even the remotest idea on what the solutions are . No wonder we remain a constant disappointment.  That looks to continue. Just when we needed lifting and getting the supporters united and with the club and team , BCFC manage to do the opposite.

 

 

I really don’t think this is financial at all.  I think it is Gregor (who’s been pretty much spot on through this) trying to add some sense to it....but it doesn’t fit.

It appears that Hughton is City’s number one choice (Gerrard was as a vanity appointment initially), but they’ve been at an impasse for various reasons, e.g. control of transfers, Hughton still holding out for Fulham etcetc.  Holden is the back up plan, because it’s either get the number one or not.

They need to thrash out differences with Hughton quickly.

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42 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I really don’t think this is financial at all.  I think it is Gregor (who’s been pretty much spot on through this) trying to add some sense to it....but it doesn’t fit.

It appears that Hughton is City’s number one choice (Gerrard was as a vanity appointment initially), but they’ve been at an impasse for various reasons, e.g. control of transfers, Hughton still holding out for Fulham etcetc.  Holden is the back up plan, because it’s either get the number one or not.

They need to thrash out differences with Hughton quickly.

why is DH the back up plan? There were eight interviewees the other week? Surely there are better candidates if what MA/GmG said was true? (MA said loads of applications and GmG reported eight)

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2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

why is DH the back up plan? There were eight interviewees the other week? Surely there are better candidates if what MA/GmG said was true? (MA said loads of applications and GmG reported eight)

I know, that’s the bit I don’t quite get....unless all the others have ruled themselves out.

Its been a weird process.

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1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

If we run out of time to properly prepare for the new season then DH knows the club, the players etc .

Motor running .

surely he could be caretaker until the main man comes in?

Seems really incompetent on behalf of the club to end up in this situation when there were so many applicants (allegedly)

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3 hours ago, headhunter said:

Ashton has form when it comes to upsetting the fans - this was from Watford forum in 2009:

Chris the Vic 23rd October 2009 9:47 am Well if I never get anything else right, this was the exception. I attacked him openly a year plus before he went over the inept way he ran the club, bad negotiation of contracts, inept spin and generally poor decision making and boy did many of our present contributors give me stick and with two exceptions never had the good grace to apologise. If this article is confirmed it is awesome. This man more than any other damaged our club so badly we will be picking up the pieces for several years to come.

Whole article in Watford Observer makes for interesting reading. In short he sued them for breach of contract and then withdrew his claim even paying part of their costs. Make of that what you will! I wonder what due diligence SL did when appointing him as CEO:

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/4698518.former-ceo-mark-ashton-withdraws-300000-claim-against-watford-and-will-pay-part-of-the-clubs-costs/

Thanks, interesting read. We need the same set up as Bristol Rugby. Mark Tainton (CEO) & Pat Lam (DoR in effect Head Coach with full control). Jon Lansdown should review roles & responsibilities and make the necessary improvements.

Ashton seems ok negotiating contracts, dealing with agents etc. but he shouldn't be recruiting players. Perhaps it's time to review Ashton's position. I think it's untenable if Holden is appointed.

Perhaps the focus for Bristol Sport is rugby, signing some of the best players in the world (appreciate this requires less funding than football) and a world class coach who's role & responsibilities wasn't up for negotiation when he signed. If they qualify for the European Champions Cup they'll easily attract 25k plus crowds when the likes of Munster, Leinster & French sides visit the Gate.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Possible but hardly coherent. If you are a racing team with the fastest car you’re going to want the best driver in it , aren’t you ? 
 

Do you think the club have handled the situation well ? 
 

 

I honestly don’t know if they’ve handled it well, there’s been next to nothing released officially by the club, probable there’s been leaks to the press and definitely a lot of speculation. I enjoy reading people’s views, guesses and insider knowledge during transfers but until the player is on the roof it’s just that, similarly with this manager appointment.
using the F1 analogy, Lando Norris hasn’t been doing badly this season but would Lewis Hamilton do better in the same car? (I don’t know,  probably)

Would Houghton get more out of our squad than Dean Ashton? Maybe? That’s the thing the owner and his board are evaluating - they don’t know for certain, they can only give it their best guess.

the thing I’m fairly sure about, the owner isn’t trying to do this on the cheap (just look at our stadium, new training ground, etc.) and he has backed the managers when he trusts them. He’s an expert in investment, I believe whoever he appoints will be the person he trusts and believes in the most

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1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

by whom? The report by GmG? 

Even so, why would DH be the back up plan? 

Here's a possible scenario as it plays out in my head - bear in mind this is all speculation. I used to work as a headhunter for some senior executive roles and I know that one of the most time-consuming parts is negotiating the contract, which can take weeks. So I could see a situation that happened like the following.

MA holds the interview process and there are essentially 2 candidates they like at the end of the process:

  • Chris Hughton who is the stand-out candidate, but has a lot of demands - possibly around salary, performance bonuses, transfer budget, control of transfers, promotion of youth etc.
  • Dean Holden who they hold in high regard and doesn't have any major demands that would be deal-breaking.

Contract negotiations begin with the board's preferred candidate (Hughton) but after a couple of weeks of back and forward they hit an impasse with both parties still some way apart on their positions. Hughton is waiting by the phone to find out if a mutually agreed deal can be done. Meanwhile they've kept Holden on hold as their backup candidate and leak to Gregor that they are strongly considering Holden. This is an attempt to get Hughton's agent to realise that the club have a 2nd option that they'll appoint if they reluctantly cannot agree terms with Hughton as they are getting frustrated at the to-and-fro in negotations. These protracted negotiations are why the process has taken so long.

As Gregor posts his tweet OTIB and Twitter go up in flames, helping the club to realise that the appointment of Holden will not be received well by the fanbase. Negotiations with Hughton are ongoing and both sides are trying to find something that they can agree to. Worried that the negative reaction will turn the fans against the board and possibly is going to put Hughton off, they then tell Gregor this morning that nothing is done and dusted and it is still an open field. Gregor then tweets some more this morning that nothing is done, it's still in process etc. 

My guess would be that the club would like Hughton too in an ideal world, but there needs to be movement both from Bristol City on certain contractual/structural points and Hughton. If there is no agreement then the backup option, Holden is now the candidate they'll go for. 

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25 minutes ago, haggis_farewell said:

Here's a possible scenario as it plays out in my head - bear in mind this is all speculation. I used to work as a headhunter for some senior executive roles and I know that one of the most time-consuming parts is negotiating the contract, which can take weeks. So I could see a situation that happened like the following.

MA holds the interview process and there are essentially 2 candidates they like at the end of the process:

  • Chris Hughton who is the stand-out candidate, but has a lot of demands - possibly around salary, performance bonuses, transfer budget, control of transfers, promotion of youth etc.
  • Dean Holden who they hold in high regard and doesn't have any major demands that would be deal-breaking.

Contract negotiations begin with the board's preferred candidate (Hughton) but after a couple of weeks of back and forward they hit an impasse with both parties still some way apart on their positions. Hughton is waiting by the phone to find out if a mutually agreed deal can be done. Meanwhile they've kept Holden on hold as their backup candidate and leak to Gregor that they are strongly considering Holden. This is an attempt to get Hughton's agent to realise that the club have a 2nd option that they'll appoint if they reluctantly cannot agree terms with Hughton as they are getting frustrated at the to-and-fro in negotations. These protracted negotiations are why the process has taken so long.

As Gregor posts his tweet OTIB and Twitter go up in flames, helping the club to realise that the appointment of Holden will not be received well by the fanbase. Negotiations with Hughton are ongoing and both sides are trying to find something that they can agree to. Worried that the negative reaction will turn the fans against the board and possibly is going to put Hughton off, they then tell Gregor this morning that nothing is done and dusted and it is still an open field. Gregor then tweets some more this morning that nothing is done, it's still in process etc. 

My guess would be that the club would like Hughton too in an ideal world, but there needs to be movement both from Bristol City on certain contractual/structural points and Hughton. If there is no agreement then the backup option, Holden is now the candidate they'll go for. 

Thank you for the info and clarification. For me, it still begs the question why the club would think DH be capable of being head coach/manager? Being a top bloke, familiar with the club and respected by the players doesn't seem to be good enough criteria to take on the running of a Championship club. It does actually sound like they only have one candidate…DH is already employed and obviously doesn't want to lose his job. I like DH, and it makes me wonder if he would be being fed to the lions by taking on this role? :dunno:

 

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Conspiracy Theory #17863:

Ashton got rid of Ayling

Why?

Having read the Watford article posted earlier (I’d read it some time ago too), it hasn’t dawned on me until now that Ashton sacked Ray Lewington as Watford boss.  So what you may ask?  Lewington is Ayling’s uncle is what.  Did Ayling have Ashton’s cards marked from day 1 and possibly vice versa.

Also saw this:

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/4698518.former-ceo-mark-ashton-withdraws-300000-claim-against-watford-and-will-pay-part-of-the-clubs-costs/

 

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9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Conspiracy Theory #17863:

Ashton got rid of Ayling

Why?

Having read the Watford article posted earlier (I’d read it some time ago too), it hasn’t dawned on me until now that Ashton sacked Ray Lewington as Watford boss.  So what you may ask?  Lewington is Ayling’s uncle is what.  Did Ayling have Ashton’s cards marked from day 1 and possibly vice versa.

Also saw this:

https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/4698518.former-ceo-mark-ashton-withdraws-300000-claim-against-watford-and-will-pay-part-of-the-clubs-costs/

 

I found the comment section of both articles very interesting…:noexp:

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22 hours ago, windmillhillred said:

 We do know that the club offered to make Gerrard the highest paid manager in the championship. I also highly doubt anyone interviewed said “I won’t be bothering developing younger players.” 

Gerrard said he nor his reps had any contact with City.

It was reported by GMG that City contacted Rangers to reiterate that no contact had been made.

 

 

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7 hours ago, irishreds said:

Thanks, interesting read. We need the same set up as Bristol Rugby. Mark Tainton (CEO) & Pat Lam (DoR in effect Head Coach with full control). Jon Lansdown should review roles & responsibilities and make the necessary improvements.

Ashton seems ok negotiating contracts, dealing with agents etc. but he shouldn't be recruiting players. Perhaps it's time to review Ashton's position. I think it's untenable if Holden is appointed.

Perhaps the focus for Bristol Sport is rugby, signing some of the best players in the world (appreciate this requires less funding than football) and a world class coach who's role & responsibilities wasn't up for negotiation when he signed. If they qualify for the European Champions Cup they'll easily attract 25k plus crowds when the likes of Munster, Leinster & French sides visit the Gate.

 

 

 

Is it possible that this is one element of why this is taking so long - looking at tweaking the structure ?

Its been said many times on this forum that to get someone like Hughton in they will have to compromise and change the structure to accommodate him. 

I agree that MA has too much on his plate - he's a very competent CEO, but that has nothing to do with recruitment where you cannot compete just with data and analysis against a seasoned professional with an eye for a player.

They either keep it as it is and employ Holden or tweak it to employ Hughton or the like.

We'll find out soon.

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