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8 minutes ago, OldlandReddies said:

In view of Covid they'll have little choice but to resign. Fam won't leave unless he's pushed out which ain't going to happen. Elliason will need some persuading but if he has an ounce of sense he'll stay.

Resign / extend under what contractual terms and for how many years?  Current wages?  More wages? Less wages because of covid?  That’s what you need to weigh up against what they (and agent) can get elsewhere, inc signing on fees, agent fees, etc.

They are rumoured to be courted by bigger clubs than us, with European football on offer.  Bristol City is a stepping stone for them.  Look at Kodjia.  They don’t look at a Bristol City as the be all and end all like us fans do.  Both players want to push their international careers forward, especially Eliasson who wants to get into the Euro squad, Diedhiou has had some limelight already.  Eliasson also has new / proactive agent.

The following you can take with a pinch of salt but it shows how a middling Champ side compares to one club, rumoured to be after our 2 players.

https://eurofootballrumours.com/fenerbahce-sk-players-salaries/

“Ounce of sense” says go to Turkey, not stay at a Bristol City.  Same with Celtic too.

9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think Watkins would be pretty suited to Bielsa's Leeds personally. 

@Davefevs Hope Aston Villa crash and burn, in some industries that'd be akin to insider trading!! Had they come down it could've been fantastic to see what might have occurred.

I digress, as for us next season. Two possible ways to go- always the dilemma about CM. I'm working on a basis that Maenpaa, Williams, Smith all gone and loanees not renewed.

Always the problem with CM. Perm two from 4, could mix and match a bit.

            Bentley

   Moore Kalas Baker 

Hunt Walsh Nagy DaSilva

 Weimann Wells Paterson

This would be a shape that can shift. Not entirely happy with it but in some phases a loose 3-4-3, Weimann and Paterson as wide forwards. Also think Paterson more suited to helping out in midfield than Palmer.

Then in some phases this can drop into a 3-4-2-1, with Weimann and Paterson dropping off the front a bit more and a bit wider but not too wide- can possibly help out a bit defensively in wider areas as and when.

Lastly, Paterson behind Weimann and Wells, would be a 3-4-1-2 in this phase. Triangles are quite possible to create in this setup and it seems quite fluid or can be. Eliasson and Diedhiou, who knows if they are staying.

Mix and match depending on form, fitness, opposition etc Morrell, Walsh, Nagy and Massengo. Palmer is a good wildcard but thinking about balance I wonder.

Or

               Bentley

Hunt Moore Kalas DaSilva

      Walsh Nagy Morrell 

               Paterson

           Weimann Wells

Again you can perm 3 from 4 in CM really. An alternative version of this might be Weimann wide right, Eliasson wide left and Wells up front.

Or Palmer for Paterson but an advantage of this shape again is that Weimann and Paterson can in some phases pull into wider areas causing some defensive issues for the opposition but also creating a bit of cover for the full backs.

Palmer I don't think can do this so much, whereas on the flipside Eliasson wide left isn't too adept at drifting inside- that said his assist v Leeds back in August did show possibilities in this area! Baker first reserve at CB feels a decent place.

Trying not to get drawn into line ups until I know manager / system, but despite our apparent weakness (physically) in central midfield it is where we have numbers, and barring Eliasson 1) staying and 2) fitting a system, I’d be plumping for a narrow midfield (in line-up terms) and ditching my widemen!  That would either mean some form of back 3 with WBs providing width, or some form of narrow 4132, 4321 utilising combinations of Walsh, Morrell, Massengo, Nagy in conjunction with Paterson, Szmodics and Palmer.

But I really can’t go much beyond that at the mo’.

Should we recruit that missing “physical box to box CM” then the landscape changes.

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5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Where do we want to be? Would be very interested to know that because the indications from where I'm sitting would suggest we are after securing Championship status next season and nothing else. There are no noises coming out of the club suggesting a promotion push is imminent, that is for sure.

I wouldn't fancy those 2 players even in a Championship relegation battle if I'm honest.

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2 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I wouldn't fancy those 2 players even in a Championship relegation battle if I'm honest.

Might be a touch harsh on Vyner tbf. Semenyo, however, has shown literally nothing so far that suggests he can even come close to cutting it at Championship level.

Edited by Numero Uno
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1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

Might be a touch harsh on Vyner tbf. Semenyo, however, has shown literally nothing so far that suggests he can even come close to cutting it at Championship level.

It might be, but he was relegated when at Rotherham. He is not 'young' anymore, I really do feel the best move for his career is dropping down a level 

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21 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Semenyo and Vyner are not good enough for where we want to be I'm afraid

Vyner has shown promise as the right hand outside centre back in a back 3, ability to get forward by over/underlapping. You reference Rotherham but he played as a right back there and in a very poor Rotherham team, his personal stats from that season weren't too bad. 

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14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Resign / extend under what contractual terms and for how many years?  Current wages?  More wages? Less wages because of covid?  That’s what you need to weigh up against what they (and agent) can get elsewhere, inc signing on fees, agent fees, etc.

They are rumoured to be courted by bigger clubs than us, with European football on offer.  Bristol City is a stepping stone for them.  Look at Kodjia.  They don’t look at a Bristol City as the be all and end all like us fans do.  Both players want to push their international careers forward, especially Eliasson who wants to get into the Euro squad, Diedhiou has had some limelight already.  Eliasson also has new / proactive agent.

The following you can take with a pinch of salt but it shows how a middling Champ side compares to one club, rumoured to be after our 2 players.

https://eurofootballrumours.com/fenerbahce-sk-players-salaries/

“Ounce of sense” says go to Turkey, not stay at a Bristol City.  Same with Celtic too.

Trying not to get drawn into line ups until I know manager / system, but despite our apparent weakness (physically) in central midfield it is where we have numbers, and barring Eliasson 1) staying and 2) fitting a system, I’d be plumping for a narrow midfield (in line-up terms) and ditching my widemen!  That would either mean some form of back 3 with WBs providing width, or some form of narrow 4132, 4321 utilising combinations of Walsh, Morrell, Massengo, Nagy in conjunction with Paterson, Szmodics and Palmer.

But I really can’t go much beyond that at the mo’.

Should we recruit that missing “physical box to box CM” then the landscape changes.

With respect to Eliasson, I wonder if the Lazio link is still on.

Would be quite interesting given they play with a back three if he went there and flourished.

Also though financially, as a large Italian club who have just reached the CL or returned to it after a number of years away, I believe the fee would be greater or could be greater than from Celtic or Fenerbahce.

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2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Vyner has shown promise as the right hand outside centre back in a back 3, ability to get forward by over/underlapping. You reference Rotherham but he played as a right back there and in a very poor Rotherham team, his personal stats from that season weren't too bad. 

He is a good squad player for us at best I wouldn't have him as a first team starter. We need to be looking at a full back on the right hand side similar to that of Dasilva on the left for balance.

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2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Vyner has shown promise as the right hand outside centre back in a back 3, ability to get forward by over/underlapping. You reference Rotherham but he played as a right back there and in a very poor Rotherham team, his personal stats from that season weren't too bad. 

Think Vyner whether it's first team or squad player is capable at Championship level. Not saying stellar but as you say some promise. Competent, certainly. Dunno if Rotherham were quite as poor as that but not his ideal position there in any case.

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4 minutes ago, 2015 said:

He is a good squad player for us at best I wouldn't have him as a first team starter. We need to be looking at a full back on the right hand side similar to that of Dasilva on the left for balance.

But I'm not saying to play him at RB I think he should be right hand side of a back 3 where he looked good enough in the last 2/3 games, back up right back at most. 

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4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Think Vyner whether it's first team or squad player is capable at Championship level. Not saying stellar but as you say some promise. Competent, certainly. Dunno if Rotherham were quite as poor as that but not his ideal position there in any case.

If there's any season to find out whether he's championship quality its this one where we probably won't spend much, as said above I'd go with him and Moore either side of Kalas, both have ability to carry the ball/get forward and allow Kalas to cover behind. If he doesn't work out go to a back 2 or bring in Baker if he's still with us.

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7 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Vyner has shown promise as the right hand outside centre back in a back 3, ability to get forward by over/underlapping. You reference Rotherham but he played as a right back there and in a very poor Rotherham team, his personal stats from that season weren't too bad. 

Really what stats? He got a 6.45 rating on whoscored for that season, no assists, no goals. From reports Rotherham fans weren't impressed but like you said very poor team. Maybe @Davefevs can provide a better assessment with his access on Vyner. I personally don't think he'll make it but I'd love to be proven wrong.

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Just now, Lrrr said:

But I'm not saying to play him at RB I think he should be right hand side of a back 3 where he looked good enough in the last 2/3 games, back up right back at most. 

I think Vyner in a back 3 or even wing back depending on injuries. I remember reading how well he played one game at wing back for Rotherham.

And he is good on the ball. And I know his crossing has so far been good and bad. But the pace he gets on those deliveries and bend. A run of games and confidence and I think he will be consistently putting in good balls.

But yeah he is suited to a back 3 ideally. It would be pretty poor not to make him part of our squad after recent performances.

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Vyner and moore have shown they are capable in the championship and can step up. 
O’Leary can be a more than capable number 2 pushing bentley until he takes over.

walsh and morrell have proved themselves in league one and IMO would actually improve our midfield.

thats 5 players from our youth that we need not spend any extra money one but which could become much better players and worth far more with a full season behind them.

i stand by saying we should move on pato, watkins, weimann, Baker o’dowda And hunt whilst reducing wage bill significantly by releasing smith, Williams and maenpaa.

eliasson and fam look to be moving on although out of the two, I see fam as a key player for us and hope we could persuade him to stay.

if not, that should provide funds to strengthen in positions required coupled with some quality prem loans.

leas chance of anything decent happening however until the manager is sorted so the club are just shooting themselves in the foot wasting time currently.

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1 minute ago, BOSRed said:

Vyner and moore have shown they are capable in the championship and can step up. 
O’Leary can be a more than capable number 2 pushing bentley until he takes over.

walsh and morrell have proved themselves in league one and IMO would actually improve our midfield.

thats 5 players from our youth that we need not spend any extra money one but which could become much better players and worth far more with a full season behind them.

i stand by saying we should move on pato, watkins, weimann, Baker o’dowda And hunt whilst reducing wage bill significantly by releasing smith, Williams and maenpaa.

eliasson and fam look to be moving on although out of the two, I see fam as a key player for us and hope we could persuade him to stay.

if not, that should provide funds to strengthen in positions required coupled with some quality prem loans.

leas chance of anything decent happening however until the manager is sorted so the club are just shooting themselves in the foot wasting time currently.

The Championship is brutal and is certainly not a league where a full squad of whippersnapper players can be led successfully by a whippersnapper manager. If that situation is allowed to happen (it won't be) we will get relegated before Wycombe and Sheffield Wednesday do. 

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4 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

Vyner and moore have shown they are capable in the championship and can step up. 
O’Leary can be a more than capable number 2 pushing bentley until he takes over.

walsh and morrell have proved themselves in league one and IMO would actually improve our midfield.

thats 5 players from our youth that we need not spend any extra money one but which could become much better players and worth far more with a full season behind them.

i stand by saying we should move on pato, watkins, weimann, Baker o’dowda And hunt whilst reducing wage bill significantly by releasing smith, Williams and maenpaa.

eliasson and fam look to be moving on although out of the two, I see fam as a key player for us and hope we could persuade him to stay.

if not, that should provide funds to strengthen in positions required coupled with some quality prem loans.

leas chance of anything decent happening however until the manager is sorted so the club are just shooting themselves in the foot wasting time currently.

You've pretty much nailed my outlook. Don't think we will be aiming for the playoffs with that squad though. Also we are all forgetting Jonny Smith with his 11 goals and 6 assists for Oldham. Not sure if he can jump up to the Championship but it's an option.

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1 hour ago, OldlandReddies said:

In view of Covid they'll have little choice but to sign. Fam won't leave unless he's pushed out which ain't going to happen. Elliason will need some persuading but if he has an ounce of sense he'll stay.

I think you might need to get real.  They will move elsewhere on a lot more money.  Good luck to them 

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I do fear for us next season, especially if holden comes in, especially if fam does go.

vyner should be competing with hunt next season, and moore with baker. Dont know how far pring has come but dasilva is our only proper left back.

smith ought to stay just because we have no one else in midfield who likes a tackle. 

and if fam goes, we are left with wells weimann and semenyo. I dont see any transfer fees being paid, so we are looking at loans or free transfers for a good cb, box to box midfielder and striker

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49 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:


and if fam goes, we are left with wells weimann and semenyo. I dont see any transfer fees being paid, so we are looking at loans or free transfers for a good cb, box to box midfielder and striker

There's plenty of them to be fair.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Should we recruit that missing “physical box to box CM” then the landscape changes.

Not for a minute suggesting he is the solution but does anyone know what happened with Bakinson? Was showing a lot of promise for the future early on.

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1 hour ago, Lrrr said:

But I'm not saying to play him at RB I think he should be right hand side of a back 3 where he looked good enough in the last 2/3 games, back up right back at most. 

Let’s take RB. Unless you’re gonna get someone in as an upgrade on Hunt (one to discuss elsewhere), then Hunt Is your first choice. Do you spend money to get cover?  Not imho, you continue to develop Vyner, who provides versatility too. I think “versatility” is gonna be the recruitment buzzword during this window and January.

If however you decide you go want to upgrade Hunt, you then have a decision to make. Who is back up? Hunt with less than 12 months on his contract or Vyner. I’d go Vyner and get anything I could for Hunt as well as free the wage bill up. 

1 hour ago, RedRoss said:

Really what stats? He got a 6.45 rating on whoscored for that season, no assists, no goals. From reports Rotherham fans weren't impressed but like you said very poor team. Maybe @Davefevs can provide a better assessment with his access on Vyner. I personally don't think he'll make it but I'd love to be proven wrong.

Rotherham reviews were mixed. For me he played 30-odd times in the champ in a struggling side. I would just focus on how he developed in that spell rather than much else. @Lrrris much better placed to give an overview than me.

In the 5 games under Holden he did enough to give me hope. Got some flaws to work on defensively but did better with the ball than I thought he would. End product to work on though. 

1 hour ago, BOSRed said:

Vyner and moore have shown they are capable in the championship and can step up. 
O’Leary can be a more than capable number 2 pushing bentley until he takes over.

walsh and morrell have proved themselves in league one and IMO would actually improve our midfield.

thats 5 players from our youth that we need not spend any extra money one but which could become much better players and worth far more with a full season behind them.

i stand by saying we should move on pato, watkins, weimann, Baker o’dowda And hunt whilst reducing wage bill significantly by releasing smith, Williams and maenpaa.

eliasson and fam look to be moving on although out of the two, I see fam as a key player for us and hope we could persuade him to stay.

if not, that should provide funds to strengthen in positions required coupled with some quality prem loans.

leas chance of anything decent happening however until the manager is sorted so the club are just shooting themselves in the foot wasting time currently.

Agree with sentiments re the 5 young players and also the concept of moving on others even if I don’t agree with all the players you’ve named.  We need to trim the wage bill and use our resources more efficiently. 

1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

I think you might need to get real.  They will move elsewhere on a lot more money.  Good luck to them 

I was being more polite! 😆

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1 hour ago, RedRoss said:

Really what stats? He got a 6.45 rating on whoscored for that season, no assists, no goals. From reports Rotherham fans weren't impressed but like you said very poor team. Maybe @Davefevs can provide a better assessment with his access on Vyner. I personally don't think he'll make it but I'd love to be proven wrong.

I know when he was playing 1st RB for us it was stated on multiple occasions he was really a CB. When he was at Rotherham he got a few games at CB and received praise on at least a couple of those occasions when I looked on their forum at the time. however he mostly played RB which is technically not his best role. At Aberdeen I'm not sure how he did overall or where he played most of the time - he definitely had at least a couple of games in midfield - CM I think. I'd keep him here even if just as a Utility player to cover multiple positions, but to be honest I think he shows good promise at CB particularly in a three. 

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1 hour ago, BOSRed said:

Vyner and moore have shown they are capable in the championship and can step up. 
O’Leary can be a more than capable number 2 pushing bentley until he takes over.

walsh and morrell have proved themselves in league one and IMO would actually improve our midfield.

thats 5 players from our youth that we need not spend any extra money one but which could become much better players and worth far more with a full season behind them.

i stand by saying we should move on pato, watkins, weimann, Baker o’dowda And hunt whilst reducing wage bill significantly by releasing smith, Williams and maenpaa.

eliasson and fam look to be moving on although out of the two, I see fam as a key player for us and hope we could persuade him to stay.

if not, that should provide funds to strengthen in positions required coupled with some quality prem loans.

leas chance of anything decent happening however until the manager is sorted so the club are just shooting themselves in the foot wasting time currently.

Many takers? O'Dowda and Watkins albeit for differing reasons certainly not.

Hunt, Baker, Paterson, Weimann can all play a reasonable role IMO so I'm not so keen to push all of them out of the door- again though the question of a fairly flattened market as it stands and how many of them we could truly shift at the current time in any case.

Eliasson will be interesting- because if he goes to Lazio and flourishes in their system the starting point of which/the constant is a back 3 and Immobile up front- that would raise serious questions about why LJ and the club couldn't bring him on here in that setup.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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I think it could be a good season as far as giving our younger players a good run in the team.

I'm expecting Morrell, Walsh, O'Leary, Moore and Massengo to feature a lot, probably Vyner too.

Not sure about Semenyo  - a year ago I thought he was going to be great but he's not really pushed on.

The only way we'll know if they are good enough is by playing them regularly and sometimes you've just got to take a bit of a risk.

 

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3 minutes ago, CHAZ MICHAELS said:

I think it could be a good season as far as giving our younger players a good run in the team.

I'm expecting Morrell, Walsh, O'Leary, Moore and Massengo to feature a lot, probably Vyner too.

Not sure about Semenyo  - a year ago I thought he was going to be great but he's not really pushed on.

The only way we'll know if they are good enough is by playing them regularly and sometimes you've just got to take a bit of a risk.

 

I am hoping if there's a limited crowd then that might help some young players. Certainly Semenyo who looks nervous when at home in front of a big crowd.

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53 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Many takers? O'Dowda and Watkins albeit for differing reasons certainly not.

Hunt, Baker, Paterson, Weimann can all play a reasonable role IMO so I'm not so keen to push all of them out of the door- again though the question of a fairly flattened market as it stands and how many of them we could truly shift at the current time in any case.

Eliasson will be interesting- because if he goes to Lazio and flourishes in their system the starting point of which/the constant is a back 3 and Immobile up front- that would raise serious questions about why LJ and the club couldn't bring him on here in that setup.

Could certainly shift some out on loan to reduce wage bill and clear space in squad. 
watkins could be a similar loan to Taylor whereby he is released at end.

odowda could be a loan with an agreed purchase fee to at least get our money back for him.

baker needs to be sold as he isn’t reliable enough due to injuries but his wages to many would be a stumbling block unless we paid a portion of them.

hunt not good enough IMO and should move on in similar way unless we fail to find a new and more importantly a better fullback.

certainly scope to move players on but yes, need to find takers and subsequent replacements.

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4 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

Could certainly shift some out on loan to reduce wage bill and clear space in squad. 
watkins could be a similar loan to Taylor whereby he is released at end.

odowda could be a loan with an agreed purchase fee to at least get our money back for him.

baker needs to be sold as he isn’t reliable enough due to injuries but his wages to many would be a stumbling block unless we paid a portion of them.

hunt not good enough IMO and should move on in similar way unless we fail to find a new and more importantly a better fullback.

certainly scope to move players on but yes, need to find takers and subsequent replacements.

Baker and the injuries, good point- that does not help! May also make it harder to move him on though.

On loan yeah, may have to pay portion of wages in some cases- thought/wondered in summer 2019 whether say a Baker-Watkins double loan to some club could be an idea, someone like Barnsley or Millwall but with some of the wages paid by us- thought we'd have to be creative to shift in 2019 and perhaps even more so now!

O'Dowda's stock has surely fallen quite a bit since 12 months ago- 2 years left on his deal with an option for the third, could be tricky.

Hunt- fair, decent attacking outlet though. Think he's one of those 4 who could be moved on more readily IMO.

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, exactly what I posted earlier on.

Potentially that’s what massengo could be. Certainly bulked up, has the energy and determination to get stuck in, just needs guidance and clarity on the role that’s required of him. He was asked to do so many different things last season I’m sure he himself was confused as to what his role really was.
 

midfield three of morrell Walsh and massengo with the latter being the energetic ball winner and the two former being the forward thinking progressive playmakers would work nicely. Some would point out a big deficiency in height but if they can play the ball around Quickly and accurately, and we can regular out balls via proper player movement and special use, it negates the issue.

otherwise, if not massengo, a player like samba sow at forest is a good model to work to. Big, mobile and dominating in midfield. Not many like him around of good quality and affordable. Man Utd looking to loan out garner however who fits that role

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