Davefevs Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Spud55 said: I think all of this talking about the financial implications only work if offered a binary choice of Hughton or Holden, but we know that is not the case, there are plenty of managers out there who have a CV far, far in excess of Holden that are not Chris Hughton, we have managers like Ryan Lowe who would absolutely not be demanding the salary or control that Hughton would be and had a managerial CV far, far ahead of Holden, Sitchie Wellens the same, jesus Sol Campbell is a better prospect than Holden. Football is a business of relatively fixed costs and incomes, so we will have known exactly what was going out and not coming in, so i do not buy that anything has changed in that respect since removing Johnson, if anything the fact that test events have been given the go ahead with the likely resumption of some fans being able to attend games in October, if anything the picture has improved from when we sacked Johnson, so again I do not buy for one second that we have appointed Holden due to money. We have given him the job because Mark Ashton and SL genuinely believe he is the best man for the job and that is ******* terrifying. Agree, agree, agree....apart from terrifying bit. But of course, time will tell. I was broadly impressed with Holden’s 5 games in caretaker charge. But will give my first judgement on early ins and outs, then first few games until end of first window, and see where we are then. But the board have handled this atrociously. I can come up with viable reasons why, but it still doesn’t make them right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tin Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: Well we do not start from where Barcelona are but from where Bristol City finds itself at this moment in time. the constraints of the FFP rules and the financial uncertainties caused by covid have to be addressed. They cannot simply be ignored because some fans don't like the "lack of ambition". We have a plan, a budget and ambition and the board will try to do their best in the circumstances. We will see in a couple of years if they made wise decisions or not. A range of possibilities exist - promotion (difficult against parachute payments) consolidated in upper part of the league (great if we have embedded a new generation of young players) - or relegation if all you guys are right. I think the latter is unlikely because by managing the finances we may well be much stronger than many other teams as we come out of the shadow of covid. Again, with respect, you need to step back from your own agenda or narrative and think objectively. Financial uncertainties due to COVID-19 may well be an elephant in the room, but - as outlined in my previous post - the board is not afraid to pay compo to LJ and JMc, compo to the FA and salaries for Downing and Simpson, and give our latest novice a pay rise. I would also say that spending, approved by the board, shows we are well within FFP. There is no ambition whatsoever here. You completely overlook the point about how internal appointments and this sort of management structure only works at the likes of FC Barcelona because it's a club steeped in tradition - international players winning the biggest trophies by playing at the very top level under the best coaches. Let's look SL's three amigos and the peaks of their playing careers for comparison - Downing (24 games in the old First Division with Stoke), Simpson (19 PL games at Derby), Holden (85 games for Oldham L1). What coaches have they played under and learnt off in those times? Joe Jordan, Jim Smith, Iain Dowie. Real pedigree, that. And what about the fans? FCB is owned by the fans, not a delusional dictator. I've said it before and I'll say it again - SL is a wonderful benefactor for BCFC, but shit when it comes to know absolutely anything about selecting managers. That's not my opinion, look back over the last 18 years and see that the only manager or head coach to go on to bigger and better things after leaving Ashton Gate was Tony Pulis. Our owner and his henchmen are deluded if they think this move will secure PL football. If I wasn't a City fan, I'd find it laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windmillhillred Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: Nobody is suggesting that but by ignoring the problems that is what could happen. All a perfectly valid argument for either not sacking Johnson or immediately appointing Holden with that explanation. Which is not the situation we are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City oz Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said: BP suggesting he has. There is a famous poster on here who will not believe anything until it is on the official site. His followers and admirers (of which there are many) consider him to be wise! Well i hope he is wrong and drunk to much red wine like me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Bullbag said: Utter Tosh! Complete codswallop. Do you work for Bristol sport or something? Or are you just a happy clapping ostrich? No, No and er No. Just a boring old know nothing git who loved Bristol City and has been cursed by spending a long career in business. I am very pleased that I did not have to deal with the Covid19 issues. Hugely challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citywest30 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Bat Fastard said: It has become clear that there may be a very difficult set of financial circumstances facing our club and others in our division. Our own @MrPopodopolous has set out these concerns very well in a different thread. Our squad is in need of supplementation and there will be comings and goings as usual, but our ambitions will be tempered by financial constraints. Our strength in the youth department gives cause for optimism and it seems that the board have decided to double down on our original strategy of developing youth - both for sale and to build the first team. The new additions reported in the Bristol Post show that the efforts to leverage the youth policy will effectively be put on steroids. Our new head coach has the advantage of being very well known and is obviously admired by the board, players and others in the club. What he may lack in experience can be made up by his knowledge of the club and players and willingness to adhere to our corporate strategy. He also fits in with the budget and is the continuity candidate because a new experienced manager may well have wanted to make very expensive changes to playing squad, staff and modus operandi. Everything the board appear to have decided so far looks sound and logical from the perspective of what is best for our long term interests and gets us over the, hopefully, short term financial obstacles. Given all this, maybe it is about time for the fans to be rather more understanding of the owner and board and to come to terms with the fact that we are living in unprecedented times and we will need to make wise and prudent decisions to benefit in the long run. Give the plans a chance to work by boosting them with your total support. Bury the negatives because we are not able to do much to change the landscape in which we have to operate. Try being supporters rather than antagonistic critics. This does not apply to all - but there are some who need to consider this carefully. Just get real! I still think we stumbled on this rather than set out to achieve this, as we discussed on the Holden thread, but agree with all you've said here. Reason to be optimistic and get behind City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Dottie said: I think we’ve got a great group of young players & am excited about them being developed & utilized more but, at the same time, I don’t see us challenging for promotion for, at least, the next couple of seasons. The problem for me is that the board, particularly SL, raised the fans’ expectations so high with earlier comments that these appointments are now a disappointment. I agree with the first part of your post. I expect the board are very frustrated with the current situation - much of which is totally beyond their control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baba Yaga Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 The board have handled this process badly in my view. I understand about the financial problems about to bite them and the rest of the championship clubs. It feels like transfers between clubs will dry up also because negotiating salaries in such uncertain times has a huge downside risk for the clubs. I think the club knew full well about this but thought they would not be honest about the recruitment process to the fans because the reality is they're panicking big time about the future. It seems like they went after big names for interview to make themselves look good but offered prospective managers little to work with in terms of funds to get their own players in. Unfortunately Gerrard and Hughton didn't go along with their watered down plans and now also the fans realise that the ambitions of the club doesn't match their press releases. I hope the club still has a decent enough championship squad to not flirt with relegation next season, and who knows maybe Holden will surprise a few, but there is no getting away that the club has made a mistake here and fans being upset is understandable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: I can feel your frustration coming through but should point out that accounts are a picture of what has happened and not what will happen. Projections made over recent times may have been binned and revised time after time as the issues and ramifications become clear. I would not be surprised if SLs own investments were not reduced in value by a large amount and his dividend income may be a fraction of what it was. He is further constrained by FFP and the unfair parachute payments. Of course promotion would solve many problems but it may not be likely in the current circumstances - and we must get real about that. The blame game is not terribly helpful because it is backward looking. We have to look forward and the board have to find a way through all the obstacles. Hopefully they will clarify as much as they are able to soon. You can see pretty clearly from the accounts what the match day revenue for the club is in the context of all revenue. We can understand the limit of the impact COVID-19 can have at maximum pretty clearly. FFP is a constraint but nothing new and I very much doubt SL has seen any real impact to his net worth or his income. He is still very invested in HL, they just paid dividends and are trading at pre-COVID levels and there's no real reason to expect that to fall off because all a financial crisis and recovery will do is concentrate wealth further at the top, and those people are HL customers. I very much doubt the club will clarify anything. They will most likely put out a weak PR spin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 28 minutes ago, Riaz said: What fans want is totally irrelevant. Last time the fans wanted Monk ffs! Just because we dont go for the biggest name - that does not mean we lack ambition. Quite often the biggest names arent neccessarily the best managers/head coach out there. And how much you really saving on the so called cheap option? a million quid over a year? With the potential gains and losses from success and failure taken into account, its not cost effective to go for the money saving option. That's what I was saying, but we seem to have basically done that with the last few managers we have appointed. with managerial appointments you mostly but I know not always get what you pay for, as the success of Liverpool, Man city etc prove, of course there are exceptions that prove the rule such as up until recently Eddie Howe but these are few and far between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, tin said: Again, with respect, you need to step back from your own agenda or narrative and think objectively. Financial uncertainties due to COVID-19 may well be an elephant in the room, but - as outlined in my previous post - the board is not afraid to pay compo to LJ and JMc, compo to the FA and salaries for Downing and Simpson, and give our latest novice a pay rise. I would also say that spending, approved by the board, shows we are well within FFP. There is no ambition whatsoever here. You completely overlook the point about how internal appointments and this sort of management structure only works at FC Barcelona because it's a club steeped in tradition - international players winning the biggest trophies by playing at the very top level under the best coaches. Let's look SL's three amigos and the peaks of their playing careers - Downing (24 games in the old First Division with Stoke), Simpson (19 PL games at Derby), Holden (85 games for Oldham L1). What coaches have they played under and learnt off in those times? Joe Jordan, Jim Smith, Iain Dowie. Real pedigree, that. bit disingenuous that, to just pick one part of their careers. Simpson played top flight for Man City pre-PL era. Managed by respected managers of the era like Billy McNeill and Jim Smith (as you mentioned). Holden was Colin Todd and Sam Allardyce (who he had help from when at Oldham as manager). And what about the fans? FCB is owned by the fans, not a delusional dictator. I've said it before and I'll say it again - SL is a wonderful benefactor for BCFC, but shit when it comes to know absolutely anything about selecting managers. That's not my opinion, look back over the last 18 years and see that the only manager or head coach to go on to bigger and better things after leaving Ashton Gate was Tony Pulis. Our owner and his henchmen are deluded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, 2015 said: I appreciate what you are saying and understand all of the financial difficulties, which will effect almost every Championship club right now, but I disagree, we will see other championship clubs splashing money like no tomorrow throughout the window and you can't tell me we don't have the money, I think it's a big smokescreen.. The reason I disagree is I think this is a smoke screen by the club for its failure to not get the Man they wanted in Gerrard and Hughton. They would not want to work without having control of the transfers. Now the only way to get the fans back on side is by using our likely struggle this season coming on us 'rebuilding', 'change of structure' and focusing on the academy, of whom many of the U23's if they were any good would be in the squad most weeks, but they are not. I just see this as one big excuse for not getting the man we wanted in charge and whatever happens this coming season we will have how many fans and people in the club just saying 'but we are focusing on the academy, etc'. I don't want that, I want this club not just focusing on the academy but also getting the best players it can get in with the best manager we can get in. Covid-19 will effect almost all Football Clubs, lets hope we don't use this as an excuse for failure and when we are 19th in November when it effects every football club at our level. It confirms to me, Mr Lansdown has no ambition in reaching the Premier League, he is simply looking to take money back from what he has put into the club, that's his prerogative and up to us fans to criticise which we are allowed to as we want our club trying to play at the highest level. Money is in short supply right now because of the limitations of the covid issue. These may be made even more severe over the winter and this puts a question mark over future income coming into the club. Even if SL did come up with a great wad of money, he has limitations within FFP and we could get penalised for over spending. There are no easy answers and it is difficult to compete with parachute clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said: Money is in short supply right now because of the limitations of the covid issue. These may be made even more severe over the winter and this puts a question mark over future income coming into the club. Even if SL did come up with a great wad of money, he has limitations within FFP and we could get penalised for over spending. There are no easy answers and it is difficult to compete with parachute clubs. I think this appointment would have still been made regardless of covid-19 though. It's just how the club is, maybe it's pessimism from me as a fan but I think we're frustrated as so many are just not surprised by it. I hope I am proved wrong, but my gut feeling about the whole situation isn't good and it's the same for every Championship club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, kevster3 said: And you are always right I suppose Only those who believe that truth is bullshit really know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said: Tight Would you rather sail in a tight ship or one that leaks like a sieve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, kevster3 said: I would like the real truth,not the opinion of a sanctimonious **** like you We would all like the real truth but it is not available. We are speculating, but I thank you for your kind and considerate reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeneys Penalties Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: Money is in short supply right now because of the limitations of the covid issue. These may be made even more severe over the winter and this puts a question mark over future income coming into the club. Even if SL did come up with a great wad of money, he has limitations within FFP and we could get penalised for over spending. There are no easy answers and it is difficult to compete with parachute clubs. an inconvenient fact.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redrascal2 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: Would you rather sail in a tight ship or one that leaks like a sieve? No one where I trusted the captain's experience and know-how to get us to where we want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 12 minutes ago, pillred said: That's what I was saying, but we seem to have basically done that with the last few managers we have appointed. with managerial appointments you mostly but I know not always get what you pay for, as the success of Liverpool, Man city etc prove, of course there are exceptions that prove the rule such as up until recently Eddie Howe but these are few and far between. Well you dont actually get what you pay for. Quite often, managers just starting out will be low paid. But some will turn out to be very good and some wont be cut out for management. There is no such thing as a cheap option, when it comes to managers. Cost means nothing and does not indicate success at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said: You hated, detested, it when your older sibling told you Father Christmas was "horseshit," didn't you Bat? You resisted it, for years, despite the jeers of the mob at school. And then work. Even now, there's a bit of you that cannot accept - Father Christmas was not what you thought. And it was all "horseshit." I'm with you, I'm clinging on with you - Father Christmas is real (although in this evolving situation, he might not this year be able to deliver what we all demand, er, hope for, I mean). Have you considered counselling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, collier said: So you just ignore all reasonable responses that you can't spin into your way of thinking then right?? I asked you a couple of questions a few posts ago but I guess you had no way to spin it so ignored it. Your now trying to spin the sacking of LJ away from the financial argument you have been peddling since this began and now it's because he was unable to trust young players. Fact is we not long ago resigned LJ on a 5 year deal, we have now sacked him and had to pay him off all while spouting dreams of the next level and fresh faces, then suddenly after all that we remember those pesky finances and resort to what looks like moving up the number 2 failure after LJ, into the number 1 spot and giving him a clean slate instead of binning him off too. Please try and keep up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevster3 Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said: We would all like the real truth but it is not available. We are speculating, but I thank you for your kind and considerate reply. As a fellow City fan,we will have to agree to disagree,and for our sins continue to go and hope things improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Greedo said: you don’t half talk a lot for a man with his tongue permanently attached to Lansdown’s boot mind. What is a boot mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, Riaz said: Well you dont actually get what you pay for. Quite often, managers just starting out will be low paid. But some will turn out to be very good and some wont be cut out for management. There is no such thing as a cheap option, when it comes to managers. Cost means nothing and does not indicate success at all. Then we tend to go for the CHEAPER option then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfcredandwhite Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 I’m assuming that nothing has been announced officially yet because I can’t find anything on the OS. Although I’ve chipped in with a few mild pisstaking posts my real genuine feelings about the appointments are ‘on hold’ until the appointments are made public by way of an offficial announcement backed up with the reasoning behind the appointments. I am, however, frustrated and disappointed at the continued wall of silence surrounding the whole thing. As fans it’s natural to be desperate for news and the club should respect and acknowledge that - even if it’s simply to say ‘sorry but we can’t say anything just yet because.....’ - at least that would acknowledge the fans and try to convey a feeling that they (the board) care about us a little bit. Continuous silence suggests they don’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, pillred said: Then we tend to go for the CHEAPER option then. no such thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bris Red Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, Riaz said: no such thing. You are so delusional it’s unreal Riaz! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bat Fastard Posted August 10, 2020 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 45 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said: Just because it is beyond our control does not mean we have to become apologists for Lansdown and the Board. And further how you keep harping on about cost constraints when we are paying off Johnson and taking on two England coaches to bail out Holden is clearly not a concern for Lansdown. Only of course when it suits him. I'm sure that the costs would have been carefully weighed. I am not an apologist for the board but I have an idea of the kind of problems they may be facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, bris red said: You are so delusional it’s unreal Riaz! Haha whys that?? When fans say its the cheap option, its nonsense. Because it will cost tens of millions if it all goes wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 10, 2020 Report Share Posted August 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, 2015 said: I think this appointment would have still been made regardless of covid-19 though. It's just how the club is, maybe it's pessimism from me as a fan but I think we're frustrated as so many are just not surprised by it. I hope I am proved wrong, but my gut feeling about the whole situation isn't good and it's the same for every Championship club. Agree. there are two main differences between Holden and Hughton: their respective salaries their willingness to operate under a given recruitment and staff model i believe playing budget (wages and fees) will be similar whoever got the job....covid impact already modelled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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