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Time to sell up and move on Mr Lansdown


formerly known as ivan

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1 hour ago, M.D said:

So if Bristol City FC was sold, am I correct in thinking the ground isnt part of that now, so we are a club without a ground?

Depends if they want to buy Bristol City Holdings or Bristol City FC Limited. Holdings Company owns the club and the ground. Most football clubs are set up the same way with the stadium in a separate entity. This means should Bristol City Football Club go under then they can't touch the stadium. A new club could be set up and Ashton Gate still be owned.

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10 minutes ago, BlowerBCFC said:

Depends if they want to buy Bristol City Holdings or Bristol City FC Limited. Holdings Company owns the club and the ground. Most football clubs are set up the same way with the stadium in a separate entity. This means should Bristol City Football Club go under then they can't touch the stadium. A new club could be set up and Ashton Gate still be owned.

Thank you

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18 minutes ago, BlowerBCFC said:

Depends if they want to buy Bristol City Holdings or Bristol City FC Limited. Holdings Company owns the club and the ground. Most football clubs are set up the same way with the stadium in a separate entity. This means should Bristol City Football Club go under then they can't touch the stadium. A new club could be set up and Ashton Gate still be owned.

Thanks, that's the gist of my understanding too.

Other fixed assets for the club- Holdings or club. Think Training ground, academy, to name two? Sure there's more!

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I certainly think that last paragraph is quite possible. Holden= Deemed safe pair of hands and then go bigger in 2021.

It is notable that Hughton or Cook or similar were not snapped up by Bournemouth contrary to expectations, but Tindall. Maybe they had similar issues with budgetary expectations by prospective managers.

Perhaps Howe was shown the financials generally and blanched! 

Will be interesting to see how certain managers- Howe and Hughton two examples- but plenty more- adjust to this new mix of FFP, Covid constraints and managerial structures with Football Directors etc.

Notwithstanding parachute payments, aren't Bournemouth up shit creek regarding unpaid transfer fees, or have I got that wrong ?

If they are in a pickle that may explain Tindall more than us with Holden.

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3 hours ago, Natchfever said:

I agree, Lansdown senior is not a disgrace, neither is he a benefactor, but I think he could do so much better and that is why a number of fans are starting to take a different view towards him.

We could do one hell of a lot worse. Be very careful what you wish for

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1 hour ago, BlowerBCFC said:

Depends if they want to buy Bristol City Holdings or Bristol City FC Limited. Holdings Company owns the club and the ground. Most football clubs are set up the same way with the stadium in a separate entity. This means should Bristol City Football Club go under then they can't touch the stadium. A new club could be set up and Ashton Gate still be owned.

Correct I believe, I was told precisely as per your comment above by someone who had a look into this financial setup. The Lansdowns are quite astute with the financials, so the club (BCFC) and the ground are in effect separate entities. Which is why BCFC (the club) has become a bit of a “play toy” IMO.  

Explains quite a few things recently including the new appointment when you try to understand the politics behind the scenes, based on what we are told.

Not the club I once knew. Time to take a break from BCFC for me until we get our club back. I have never liked being treated as a punter. Wonder what Harry Dolman would think of Ashton & Co?

Holden will be gone by Xmas.

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46 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

Correct I believe, I was told precisely as per your comment above by someone who had a look into this financial setup. The Lansdowns are quite astute with the financials, so the club (BCFC) and the ground are in effect separate entities. Which is why BCFC (the club) has become a bit of a “play toy” IMO.  

Explains quite a few things recently including the new appointment when you try to understand the politics behind the scenes, based on what we are told.

Not the club I once knew. Time to take a break from BCFC for me until we get our club back. I have never liked being treated as a punter. Wonder what Harry Dolman would think of Ashton & Co?

Holden will be gone by Xmas.

Absolutely. Very sad but your feelings are understandable. I have followed the club for over fifty years but have already walked away around circa 2008/9. It felt wrong and bewildering to me that Sl did not to push on when the big chance was there in the January window of 2008. And so it has been proven, BCFC is in the control of one mind and is effectively now a franchise of the Lansdown family. 

 

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My wish for the club is for it to be owned by some Chinese triad or Russian Oligarch, so they can launder money through us for a few years, only to **** off and leave us at the bottom of league 2 when the authorities catch up with them.

Well everyone has to have an ambition.....

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It's about perspective, I think it's fantastic having an English owner who is essentially a self-made billionaire but also having done this with Bristol as his base. What other club in the top 4 tiers could say they have that.

 

But if we weren't owned by Lansdown would we already have been promoted by now, at the expense of being owned by a foreign businessman or consortium?

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You know what? Times are hard, job cuts, redundancies, people being paid on a lower wage are happening, the economy is forked, I didn’t want Holden Either as first choice but there’s quite a bit I haven’t wanted to happen the last few months, screw it, we just gotta get on with it, support our club and hopefully we do well, if you wanna F off then go ahead.. we have a strong squad just a few areas need tweaking and maybe us expecting the worst we might be pleasantly surprised. 
 

suns out, go sit in the garden with a cider, chill, City together right?

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Interesting from Gregor today below. First bit is what Ashton said about Holden. Final bit is what Gregor is saying re Hughton at interview. None us know what happened in the recruitment process - we weren’t there. Sounds like Holden nailed it though and he has my support. No guarantee that Hughton would have been successful. So I disagree that the appointment of Holden,  Simpson and Downing proves that Lansdown has given up on promotion to the Premier League. I’ll continue to enjoy the ride!


‘‘He knew and was very clear about how he wanted to change things, the direction of travel he wants for the team and what he feels needs to be done for this team to be successful," explained Ashton. Okay, we heard that Hughton interviewed badly and maybe this supports that.

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On 10/08/2020 at 17:41, Matty Taylors a Red said:

This is one of my fears and something I despise about SL. People go on about how he’s gifted us our amazing stadium. In reality Bristol City owned a half decent stadium....now Bristol City own no stadium and SL/Bristol Sport have an amazing stadium. How has he just stolen Ashton Gate so easily? Maybe it’s not as straight forward as that but I do worry if he ever has enough and sells the club, where will we play? Wouldn’t any buyer have to buy the entirety of Bristol Sport or at least Ashton Gate, but what if SL only wants to sell the club? Wouldn’t we be in a bit of trouble like Coventry?

Nail and head. 
 

15 years ago this was a fan owned club and at the time no one individual could own more than 25%. Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet and it’s been forgotten it seems that it had planning permission to develop a 30,000 stadium which would have been funded to a significant extent by grants which had been agreed. 
 

Lansdown ripped up the 25% rule and bought the club, after it had been assiduously built back up after 1982 by some dedicated people. 
 

Fifteen years ago we floated between divisions 2 and 3 with our own stadium.

Now, we float between divisions 2 and 3 at a stadium owned by Steve Lansdown. 
 

One day he will sell the club, and the Coventry scenario is not an impossibility, unless there is some sort of legacy protection that he hasn’t told us about. 

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Unlike the majority of people on here, I can’t claim to understand the detail of running a football club in 2020.
 

Firstly SL. He’s ploughed a fortune into the club. He has transformed us into a club edging closer to Premier League football. We could have a lot worse. Look at all the crap Chairman out there FFS. Is everyone on another planet? Like others, I’ve stood on a wet February night watching City lose to Chester, Halifax etc in a run down stadium. What we have is amazing. I get the frustration, but look at where we are. The grass is not greener. 
 

Not having a so called big name manager, was disappointing. However, listening to DH, he had more passion in the first 30 seconds of his interview than I saw in 4 years from LJ. Passion, getting the team going, working for each other. This is what great leaders do. He wants it for us. Technically, I’m no expert, I just watch my team, so I’m not commenting on his tactical ability, but DH has some experienced coaches along side him.

We are where we are. My support will never cease, whatever happens.

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7 hours ago, GasDestroyer said:

Correct I believe, I was told precisely as per your comment above by someone who had a look into this financial setup. The Lansdowns are quite astute with the financials, so the club (BCFC) and the ground are in effect separate entities. Which is why BCFC (the club) has become a bit of a “play toy” IMO.  

Explains quite a few things recently including the new appointment when you try to understand the politics behind the scenes, based on what we are told.

Not the club I once knew. Time to take a break from BCFC for me until we get our club back. I have never liked being treated as a punter. Wonder what Harry Dolman would think of Ashton & Co?

Holden will be gone by Xmas.

 

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Nail and head. 
 

15 years ago this was a fan owned club and at the time no one individual could own more than 25%. Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet and it’s been forgotten it seems that it had planning permission to develop a 30,000 stadium which would have been funded to a significant extent by grants which had been agreed. 
 

Lansdown ripped up the 25% rule and bought the club, after it had been assiduously built back up after 1982 by some dedicated people. 
 

Fifteen years ago we floated between divisions 2 and 3 with our own stadium.

Now, we float between divisions 2 and 3 at a stadium owned by Steve Lansdown. 
 

One day he will sell the club, and the Coventry scenario is not an impossibility, unless there is some sort of legacy protection that he hasn’t told us about. 

The ground was transferred in the 2005/06 season to Ashton Gate Limited- that is not a a bad thing as such, just a factor. I believe his intentions- SL's- are pretty positive and benign- you might disagree! I don't think we should be worried however.

Possibly I digress with you two but broadly speaking I trust Steve Lansdown intention wise- dunno about Jon Lansdown though...? There's something about JL that does not convince me- he's at best not a safe pair of hands (IMO).

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9 hours ago, Natchfever said:

Notwithstanding parachute payments, aren't Bournemouth up shit creek regarding unpaid transfer fees, or have I got that wrong ?

If they are in a pickle that may explain Tindall more than us with Holden.

I read £80m or so in terms of payable transfer fees but am happy to look further- I took the assumption their benefactor/owner may cover all costs as they fall however but it could well be a factor.

Payables in that sense isn't a factor being cash flow- not profit and loss- provided the owner/benefactor happy to pay it in a timely manner

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

The ground was transferred in the 2005/06 season to Ashton Gate Limited- that is not a a bad thing as such, just a factor. I believe his intentions- SL's- are pretty positive and benign- you might disagree! I don't think we should be worried however.

Possibly I digress with you two but broadly speaking I trust Steve Lansdown intention wise- dunno about Jon Lansdown though...? There's something about JL that does not convince me- he's at best not a safe pair of hands (IMO).

There seems to be an assumption that if you question Steve's motives for his investment and raise simple truths about how Steve has changed the previously fan based ownership of the club by changing the rules, that you are questioning his integrity.

There are many things which Steve could invest in; he invests in Bristol City because it's there, it interests him, and contrary to what some assume, the overall package by exploiting the land and other land ownership opportunities, is a potentially good investment.

Steve hasn't invested in Bristol City, the football club owned by the fans, ultimately he has invested in separate land based trading vehicles, some of which are owned and registered in Jersey.

Steve could have taken the structure as it was, and invested; he wasn't prepared to do that as he wouldn't have control.

So for all the millions invested, Steve is in no way the same type of benefactor such as for example the 4 heroic directors who saved the club in 1982.

For as long as Steve owns the club, although I don't like one person having total control of what is a community asset the nature of which is like no other in business, I have no concerns. But one day he will sell, and that is when the club is at risk.

To take up your last point, for the reasons you state, the latest managerial appointment process being an example, the possibly nightmare scenario, unless JL has hitherto unseen managerial skills,  is that instead of selling he hands over actual control, rather than figurehead status, to his son.

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Just to correct the ‘myth’ that the club was a ‘fan owned’ club.  It never has been.

The club has always been owned and controlled by a cabal of some sort of business men.  In fact the company’s shares were deliberately arranged in such a way that ‘fans’ could never control the company.

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1 hour ago, CiderJar said:

I can't believe that their are people speaking in favour of the original poster.

As a survivor of 1982 be very ******* careful what you wish for.

Utter madness isn’t it....maybe it’s because he is a multi billionaire that we have become so entitled in respect to how and who he should spend his money on. If he sold the club right now we would be perfect for foreign investment who would have no affiliation or warmth to the club. At least our owner is a fan and I for one believe he has the best interests of the club in mind.

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10 hours ago, NickJ said:

Nail and head. 
 

15 years ago this was a fan owned club and at the time no one individual could own more than 25%. Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet and it’s been forgotten it seems that it had planning permission to develop a 30,000 stadium which would have been funded to a significant extent by grants which had been agreed. 
 

Lansdown ripped up the 25% rule and bought the club, after it had been assiduously built back up after 1982 by some dedicated people. 
 

Fifteen years ago we floated between divisions 2 and 3 with our own stadium.

Now, we float between divisions 2 and 3 at a stadium owned by Steve Lansdown. 
 

One day he will sell the club, and the Coventry scenario is not an impossibility, unless there is some sort of legacy protection that he hasn’t told us about. 

Interesting that you happen to pick 15 years for your comparisons. Why not 40, when we floated between divisions 1 and 2 with our own stadium, and went broke. As someone who can remember those days, I'm happy with where we are now.

And I don't recall us at any time being a "fan owned" club. Not in the sense that suggests. We've always been owned by a small number of large shareholders - some of whom may have been fans too, but that's still the case. 

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10 hours ago, NickJ said:

15 years ago this was a fan owned club and at the time no one individual could own more than 25%. Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet and it’s been forgotten it seems that it had planning permission to develop a 30,000 stadium which would have been funded to a significant extent by grants which had been agreed. 
 

15 years ago the club was effectively owned by the directors Lansdown (~30%), Dawe (~30% ), Gooch (~16%) and Laycock (~15%), see the 31 May 2005 group accounts for Bristol City Holdings Limited.  That totals 91%.  I would be interested in seeing your source for the statement '15 years ago this was a fan owned club'.

The club (Bristol City Holdings Limited and subsidiaries) did not have a healthy balance sheet.  It lost £1.8 million in 2005, £1 million in 2004 and £1.9 million in 2003, see the respective accounts.  As the 31 May 2005 group accounts for Bristol City Holdings Limited state at note 1 on page 12 "The group is currently loss making and has net current liabilities.  In order to continue in operational existence as a going concern and to meet its liabilities as they fall due, the group is dependent on securing additional finance" .  In other words the club is insolvent unless someone puts some cash in.

I would be interested in seeing your source for the statement 'Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet '.

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4 hours ago, Hxj said:

Just to correct the ‘myth’ that the club was a ‘fan owned’ club.  It never has been.

The club has always been owned and controlled by a cabal of some sort of business men.  In fact the company’s shares were deliberately arranged in such a way that ‘fans’ could never control the company.

That is not the case. After 1982 the maximum that any one individual could own was 25%, a rule deliberately put in place for what was considered to be a lesson learned from the past. 

The original 4 directors (who were also life long fans) owned the majority of the shares between them, but a significant percentage was owned by Mr & Mrs Bristol City Fan.

3 hours ago, italian dave said:

Interesting that you happen to pick 15 years for your comparisons. Why not 40, when we floated between divisions 1 and 2 with our own stadium, and went broke. As someone who can remember those days, I'm happy with where we are now.

And I don't recall us at any time being a "fan owned" club. Not in the sense that suggests. We've always been owned by a small number of large shareholders - some of whom may have been fans too, but that's still the case. 

See above - my description of "fan owned" was lazy wording but nevertheless there were many shareholders each of whom had the literal opportunity for their say at the AGM, which no longer takes place because obviously it would be meaningless.

 

2 hours ago, Hxj said:

15 years ago the club was effectively owned by the directors Lansdown (~30%), Dawe (~30% ), Gooch (~16%) and Laycock (~15%), see the 31 May 2005 group accounts for Bristol City Holdings Limited.  That totals 91%.  I would be interested in seeing your source for the statement '15 years ago this was a fan owned club'.

The club (Bristol City Holdings Limited and subsidiaries) did not have a healthy balance sheet.  It lost £1.8 million in 2005, £1 million in 2004 and £1.9 million in 2003, see the respective accounts.  As the 31 May 2005 group accounts for Bristol City Holdings Limited state at note 1 on page 12 "The group is currently loss making and has net current liabilities.  In order to continue in operational existence as a going concern and to meet its liabilities as they fall due, the group is dependent on securing additional finance" .  In other words the club is insolvent unless someone puts some cash in.

I would be interested in seeing your source for the statement 'Bristol City had a healthy balance sheet '.

See above for my comments on Bristol City being a fan owned club, which as I say was lazy wording but nevertheless it is the case that before SteveL took control it was impossible for any individual to own more than 25% and there were thousands of other shareholders ranging from £20 to thousands of pounds of shareholdings.

The time frame I took of 15 years was an estimate from memory, clearly I am talking about the time period from when Steve started to take control, which in fact is when he became the largest shareholder, in 2002.

Bristol City Holdings balance sheet showed net assets then of £4m, however that was based on an historic Ashton Gate valuation of £8m, less than its market value. That's quite healthy, unless continued to be run at a loss. The balance sheet only a few years before that was £10m, so clearly from 1982 onwards the directors had managed to run a financially sustainable football club.

Since 2002 the football club has operated at a loss, and there is only one man who can be responsible for that, because he owns the club, nobody else has any say. However from a financial perspective, if I were Steve I wouldn't be too bothered about that, knowing that purchasing Bristol City FC meant that I also purchased Ashton Gate. Purchasing Ashton Gate was the catalyst for Steve to purchase Ashton Vale, on the basis that apparently according to Steve at the time that Ashton Gate was not financially viable - well we all know how that was disproved, and I don't suppose Steve has sleepless nights about Ashton Vale, knowing that it's only time before he gets planning for something there.

The bottom line is I can only repeat I do not questions Steve's integrity but I am fairly confident that Steve would not have pumped money into Bristol City FC if he didn't have the security of the land and the businesses which are being developed on it.

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