Time to sell up and move on Mr Lansdown

[Mr Popodopolous]

All I can say too is careful what we wish for.

SL has his shortcomings but the other side of the coin of sell up and move on is he might stop funding us until such a time as a buyer is found!

Do you know what that means? In theory, it could mean sell anyone of value, sell young players, replace very cheaply and home grown when many out of contract next summer and cut costs to the bone- and by that I mean wages, fees- the lot. That's what it could mean, in theory- other owners have done this- could insist we run to breakeven.

Bit of a doomsday scenario but certainly not impossible!

[NickJ]

20 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@NickJ I've had a flashback to a Q&A at AG when I'm sure SL reassured the audience that Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Ltd could not be split as they were both held under one company, Bristol City Holdings. 

Since then however, to further complicate matters, Bristol City Holdings is now under another umbrella company Pula, based in Guernsey. I think this is also an umbrella company for Bristol Sport.

Then, believe it or not, Pula is held under another company based in the Caribbean (Bermuda or Bahamas I think). 

Where Bristol Bears fit into all of this, I'm not sure. 

Exactly and the point is this. If Lansdown's involvement was purely altruistic, it would not be necessary to have put such a complex and secretive structure in place.

All the way along, investment in the football club has been carried out with one eye very firmly on the longer term real estate and business opportunity.

That much is clear from Steve's own words and actions, simultaneously separating the stadium from the football club together with a proclamation that the football club has to be self sustaining. In other words, the football club will be a tenant at the stadium, all income and profits arising from the redeveloped stadium accruing to the owner of the stadium - now Lansdown, not the wider share ownership that was enshrined in the constitution after 1982.

[Fjmcity]

14 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Exactly and the point is this. If Lansdown's involvement was purely altruistic, it would not be necessary to have put such a complex and secretive structure in place.

All the way along, investment in the football club has been carried out with one eye very firmly on the longer term real estate and business opportunity.

That much is clear from Steve's own words and actions, simultaneously separating the stadium from the football club together with a proclamation that the football club has to be self sustaining. In other words, the football club will be a tenant at the stadium, all income and profits arising from the redeveloped stadium accruing to the owner of the stadium - now Lansdown, not the wider share ownership that was enshrined in the constitution after 1982.

I believe your right, I’ve also heard mr lansdown calls Ashton gate “my precious”

 

[NickJ]

14 hours ago, maxjak said:

Yep....Give or take around £200 mill .....your right.   No he's not a saviour, he is an essential benefactor, without whom we'd be playing in a decrepid stadium in the lower reaches of the football league

That is not correct. Once again, there were plans (I'm talking 15-20 years ago) to redevelop the Williams and East End, at a cost of around £9m, which would have been funded by ongoing cash flow but also to a significant extent by grants from the Football Trust. There was also a "Buy A Brick" scheme sold to fans. 

At one time it was possible to find details of this on the clubs official site, I cannot locate now but there is talk about it for example here:

 

[Davefevs]

23 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

@NickJ I've had a flashback to a Q&A at AG when I'm sure SL reassured the audience that Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Ltd could not be split as they were both held under one company, Bristol City Holdings. 

Since then however, to further complicate matters, Bristol City Holdings is now under another umbrella company Pula, based in Guernsey. I think this is also an umbrella company for Bristol Sport.

Then, believe it or not, Pula is held under another company based in the Caribbean (Bermuda or Bahamas I think). 

Where Bristol Bears fit into all of this, I'm not sure. 

 

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

Exactly and the point is this. If Lansdown's involvement was purely altruistic, it would not be necessary to have put such a complex and secretive structure in place.

All the way along, investment in the football club has been carried out with one eye very firmly on the longer term real estate and business opportunity.

That much is clear from Steve's own words and actions, simultaneously separating the stadium from the football club together with a proclamation that the football club has to be self sustaining. In other words, the football club will be a tenant at the stadium, all income and profits arising from the redeveloped stadium accruing to the owner of the stadium - now Lansdown, not the wider share ownership that was enshrined in the constitution after 1982.

Here’s a simple diagram @Coppellocreated....that I saved because I knew it would come in handy!!

Of course finding anything as transparent and free (!!) as Companies House in Guernsey’s equivalent is not gonna happen.  But you can see the various companies.

 

My standard response to SL’s £billions is I’m grateful for the money he has put in, but he hasn’t just given it to the club, he’s got a very vested interest in what that “investment” will return.

The club would still be here, it would just have taken a different path.  It might be in a lower division, it might be in a higher division, who knows.

[Hxj]

It depends what you mean by 'plans'.  I would suggest that a major redevelopment was not not replacing the wooden seats in the Dolman.

There have been loads of plans over the years to tart up parts of the stadium up, redevelop parts or have a completely new stadium, remember Severnside as well as Ashton Vale. 

A Football Trust grant was received for the Atyeo Stand and for the strange bit in front of the Dolman Stand but the  Football Trust was wound up in 2000 and replaced by the Football Foundation in the same year.  The club would never have been eligible for a grant from the Football Foundation for the stadium due to the grants received from the Football Trust.

In the period before Lansdown put huge amounts of cash into the business none of this happened, why not?  Well there was simply no cash available to do so. 

On another unrelated point raised, the limit on shareholdings was changed in 1996, which enabled a Mr Laycock to acquired 26.1% of the club, increasing to 27.3%.  At the same time that Laycock acquired his increased shareholding a certain Mr Davidson acquired a 21.9% shareholding and a certain Mr Lansdown acquired a 6.2% shareholding.

[Red-Robbo]

13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Here’s a simple diagram @Coppellocreated....that I saved because I knew it would come in handy!!

Of course finding anything as transparent and free (!!) as Companies House in Guernsey’s equivalent is not gonna happen.  But you can see the various companies.

 

My standard response to SL’s £billions is I’m grateful for the money he has put in, but he hasn’t just given it to the club, he’s got a very vested interest in what that “investment” will return.

The club would still be here, it would just have taken a different path.  It might be in a lower division, it might be in a higher division, who knows.

 

I thought Bristol Sport was the umbrella company over BCFC and the stadium company? On that diagram it looks like it merely is the parent of the basketball team.

Bristol Sport is certainly the company that our ticket money goes to. It was even who I had to pay to get a Crowdie.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

I thought Bristol Sport was the umbrella company over BCFC and the stadium company? On that diagram it looks like it merely is the parent of the basketball team.

Bristol Sport is certainly the company that our ticket money goes to. It was even who I had to pay to get a Crowdie.

No, a common misconception.  Bristol Sport is also a “brand” of sorts, but Bristol Sport Limited provide centralised operations like ticketing and merchandise, and transfer price their costs to the rest of the “sports”.  Even though Bristol Sport might appear on you bank statement when you buy a City ticket or polo shirt, the income will be attributed to City FC, but City will pay Bristol Sport an agreed sum for running that part of the business on their half.

In effect we’ve (Football) outsourced certain areas to Bristol Sport, where Bristol Sport can achieve economies of scale from doing the same thing for Football, Rugby and basketball.

Its the same as Ashton Gate Limited.  It provides the ground to football and rugby, who pay rent to use it.

[maxjak]

45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, a common misconception.  Bristol Sport is also a “brand” of sorts, but Bristol Sport Limited provide centralised operations like ticketing and merchandise, and transfer price their costs to the rest of the “sports”.  Even though Bristol Sport might appear on you bank statement when you buy a City ticket or polo shirt, the income will be attributed to City FC, but City will pay Bristol Sport an agreed sum for running that part of the business on their half.

In effect we’ve (Football) outsourced certain areas to Bristol Sport, where Bristol Sport can achieve economies of scale from doing the same thing for Football, Rugby and basketball.

Its the same as Ashton Gate Limited.  It provides the ground to football and rugby, who pay rent to use it.

Am i correct in thinking that SL wrote off a £71 mill loan that he had made to the club last year....or is that not the case?

[Red-Robbo]

51 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, a common misconception.  Bristol Sport is also a “brand” of sorts, but Bristol Sport Limited provide centralised operations like ticketing and merchandise, and transfer price their costs to the rest of the “sports”.  Even though Bristol Sport might appear on you bank statement when you buy a City ticket or polo shirt, the income will be attributed to City FC, but City will pay Bristol Sport an agreed sum for running that part of the business on their half.

In effect we’ve (Football) outsourced certain areas to Bristol Sport, where Bristol Sport can achieve economies of scale from doing the same thing for Football, Rugby and basketball.

Its the same as Ashton Gate Limited.  It provides the ground to football and rugby, who pay rent to use it.

I see. Before that explanation I honestly thought Bristol Sports was the "umbrella" that sat under the various Pula holding companies.

Maybe you could add a little line going from Bristol Sports to City and the rugby club to indicate payment for merchandising and admin services?

[maxjak]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

Exactly and the point is this. If Lansdown's involvement was purely altruistic, it would not be necessary to have put such a complex and secretive structure in place.

All the way along, investment in the football club has been carried out with one eye very firmly on the longer term real estate and business opportunity.

That much is clear from Steve's own words and actions, simultaneously separating the stadium from the football club together with a proclamation that the football club has to be self sustaining. In other words, the football club will be a tenant at the stadium, all income and profits arising from the redeveloped stadium accruing to the owner of the stadium - now Lansdown, not the wider share ownership that was enshrined in the constitution after 1982.

Fair enough...........but surely there are many other lesser risk investments he could make with his enormous wealth, that would guarantee him large profits.  He  obviously has a love and connection with Bristol City, and isn't the mercenary captalist that some potray him as, IMHO he has done a much better job than a lot of club owners?  Look at the mess Charlton are in, and the poor Geordies stuck with Mike Ashely, to name just two?

[Sheltons Army]

11 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Am i correct in thinking that SL wrote off a £71 mill loan that he had made to the club last year....or is that not the case?

Converted into shares wasnt it ?

[maxjak]

1 minute ago, Sheltons Army said:

Converted into shares wasnt it ?

Into equity, yes.  But it meant no interest would ever be claimed on the amount, which on 71 mill is quite a few spondolicks. He won't ever be asking for it back, so it's basically a written off debt, could you imagine Ashley doing that?

[Sheltons Army]

Just now, maxjak said:

Into equity, yes.  But it meant no interest would ever be claimed on the amount, which on 71 mill is quite a few spondolicks. He won't ever be asking for it back, so it's basically a written off debt, could you imagine Ashley doing that?

No to be fair

I think his motives are fine

His method doesn't quite match them atm

[IAmNick]

19 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Fair enough...........but surely there are many other lesser risk investments he could make with his enormous wealth, that would guarantee him large profits. 

I agree.

I'm sure he's done his best to make sure if everything goes completely tits up he has at least something to show for it, but it's hard to understand if he just wanted to make money why someone with his financial acumen would have chosen to invest in Bristol City.

I also don't begrudge him wanting to ensure he gets some return on his investment. Perhaps that's a combination of emotional and monetary - that seems fair enough to me. Being entirely charitable isn't a requirement for being a successful owner, and you could argue a close eye on finance and not being in it for purely emotional reasons could result in more pragmatic decisions being made and success in the long term.

[NickJ]

3 hours ago, Hxj said:

It depends what you mean by 'plans'.  I would suggest that a major redevelopment was not not replacing the wooden seats in the Dolman.

There have been loads of plans over the years to tart up parts of the stadium up, redevelop parts or have a completely new stadium, remember Severnside as well as Ashton Vale. 

A Football Trust grant was received for the Atyeo Stand and for the strange bit in front of the Dolman Stand but the  Football Trust was wound up in 2000 and replaced by the Football Foundation in the same year.  The club would never have been eligible for a grant from the Football Foundation for the stadium due to the grants received from the Football Trust.

In the period before Lansdown put huge amounts of cash into the business none of this happened, why not?  Well there was simply no cash available to do so. 

On another unrelated point raised, the limit on shareholdings was changed in 1996, which enabled a Mr Laycock to acquired 26.1% of the club, increasing to 27.3%.  At the same time that Laycock acquired his increased shareholding a certain Mr Davidson acquired a 21.9% shareholding and a certain Mr Lansdown acquired a 6.2% shareholding.

You are correct, it wasn't just replacing the seats in the Dolman:

 

1999 - Detailed application to replace the Williams (West) Stand with a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803708F&activeTab=summary

 

1999 - Outline application to replace the Wedlock (South) and Dolman (East) Stand with new stands. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803709P&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Reserved Matters application (ref 03/00538) for the demolition of existing Wedlock stand and erection of a new three storey 5000 seater stand with ancillary accommodation. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IDFZEJDN2D000&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Renewal of full planning permission (Application No 98/03708/F) for the demolition of the Williams (West) Stand and construction of a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IN7NZSDN3J000&activeTab=summary

 

It was announced on the Official site around the time that the plans were going ahead, financed by grants from the Football Trust or Football Foundation or whatever it was, and bank lending secured on the asset.

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, maxjak said:

Am i correct in thinking that SL wrote off a £71 mill loan that he had made to the club last year....or is that not the case?

i guess that doesn’t make much difference when if it’s all his.

2 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I see. Before that explanation I honestly thought Bristol Sports was the "umbrella" that sat under the various Pula holding companies.

Maybe you could add a little line going from Bristol Sports to City and the rugby club to indicate payment for merchandising and admin services?

Done....added a little note rather than more lines.

[Hxj]

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

You are correct, it wasn't just replacing the seats in the Dolman:

 

1999 - Detailed application to replace the Williams (West) Stand with a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803708F&activeTab=summary

 

1999 - Outline application to replace the Wedlock (South) and Dolman (East) Stand with new stands. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803709P&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Reserved Matters application (ref 03/00538) for the demolition of existing Wedlock stand and erection of a new three storey 5000 seater stand with ancillary accommodation. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IDFZEJDN2D000&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Renewal of full planning permission (Application No 98/03708/F) for the demolition of the Williams (West) Stand and construction of a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IN7NZSDN3J000&activeTab=summary

 

It was announced on the Official site around the time that the plans were going ahead, financed by grants from the Football Trust or Football Foundation or whatever it was, and bank lending secured on the asset.

 

I'm now completely confused.

I can't see how details of developments that were not carried out by the previous owners is evidence of anything other than the previous owners not carrying out any developments!

[NickJ]

1 hour ago, Hxj said:

I'm now completely confused.

I can't see how details of developments that were not carried out by the previous owners is evidence of anything other than the previous owners not carrying out any developments!

The application for the Williams/Wedlock stand redevelopment, which would have increased the capacity to 30,000 was made in 1999. Permission was granted in 2001. Around 2005 the club announced that the project was going ahead with grants and secured lending. I remember quite well the official site showing it with comments from Colin Sexstone etc. For whatever reason the owners of the club, ie by then Steve Lansdown with Keith Dawe - subsequently chose not to progress that permission. There may have been a good reason for that, but if there was, it was never given, so far as I recall.

The point being that it's not necessarily correct to state, as many do, that Bristol City is indebted to Steve Lansdown for a redeveloped stadium, because clearly there were plans to do so anyway.

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

7 minutes ago, NickJ said:

The point being that it's not necessarily correct to state, as many do, that Bristol City is indebted to Steve Lansdown for a redeveloped stadium, because clearly there were plans to do so anyway.

 

Yes, but who made it happen?  Stephen Kew?  Robert Hobbs?  Des Williams?      Scott Davidson?  John Laycock?  Deryn Coller?  

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 hours ago, NickJ said:

Exactly and the point is this. If Lansdown's involvement was purely altruistic, it would not be necessary to have put such a complex and secretive structure in place.

All the way along, investment in the football club has been carried out with one eye very firmly on the longer term real estate and business opportunity.

That much is clear from Steve's own words and actions, simultaneously separating the stadium from the football club together with a proclamation that the football club has to be self sustaining. In other words, the football club will be a tenant at the stadium, all income and profits arising from the redeveloped stadium accruing to the owner of the stadium - now Lansdown, not the wider share ownership that was enshrined in the constitution after 1982.

Except the bulk appears to go to Bristol City Holdings- which is our FFP reporting standard so...

Might become a problem if SL ever wants out though.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2018/19 shows:

Quote

Bristol City Football Club Limited

Total Revenue- £17,650,301

Then segmented it shows.

Quote

Revenue

Sale of Goods- £182,624

Rendering of Services- £4,165,304

Ticket sales- £5,972,462

Football League Income- £7,309.911

Quote

Based on further segmentation it shows:

Matchday Revenue-£2,350,048

Season tickets- £3,622,414

Broadcasting Revenue- £642,500

Football League Pool- £2,709,911

Solidarity Payment- £4,600,000

Other football related income- £1,609,719

Other commercial and retail income- £2,116,149

Quote

Bristol City Holdings Limited

Total Revenue- £30,250,718

Quote

Revenue

Sale of Goods- £6,107,644

Rendering of Services- £10,678,595

Ticket sales- £5,988,568

Football League Income- £7,475,911

Then

Quote

Matchday Revenue-£2,365,104

Season tickets- £3,623,464

Broadcasting Revenue- £642,500

Football League Pool- £2,875,911

Solidarity Payment- £4,600,000

Other football related income- £1,644,039

Other commercial and retail income- £14,499,700

I suppose the inevitable gap between the two doesn't entirely equate to turnover differences but...

Quote

Ashton Gate Limited

Total Revenue- £15,793,462

Quote

Revenue

Sale of Goods- £5,942,402

Rendering of Services- £9,869,060

Then the accounts analysis of the turnover for the year!

Quote

Ground rent and service charge- £2,677,022

Stadium and event revenue- £13,116,440

All of you make what you will of these figures- fill in gaps etc, speculate- I can't be bothered to look further atm!

Some of the ticket and EFL stuff could be linked to the Academy, or maybe Bristol City Women in the consolidated accounts.

Some of the commercial revenue might- I say might- flow to the rugby club.

A split of who pays what in Ground rent and service charge would be interesting!

[Shaun Taylor]

On 10/08/2020 at 17:24, formerly known as ivan said:

It’s now apparent that despite the talk of recent years, investment in the stadium and on players fees/wages, Mr Lansdown has given up on the promise of the premier league.

Yes he has been great for the club over the years. As above, he has invested greatly. I’ve always had greatly belief in what he was trying to achieve.

That’s all now out the window. As being as close as we are to a decent team breaking into the top 6, all that felt like it was missing  was that quality manager with the know how to get us there.

Today’s soon to be confirmed announcement all but confirms this is now nothing more than hope rather than expectation.

He interests and loyalty lay elsewhere. Many of us had seen for years Johnson wasn’t going to deliver what was required yet he continued to stick by him. Worse than that is who he has chosen to replace him with.

Thanks for the memories but time to hand over the reigns to some willing to do what is needed to get us over that line.

Why an earth would you want him to go and jeopardise stability when you could end up as the next Wigan or have  wealthy owners like that lot in South Gloucestershire who promised so much but never deliver. 

Youre lucky to have him he just needs to be a little less cautious in his managerial appointments!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just a point on SL too.

He may well own the freeholds now- but surely he can only truly profit from them as set against the money he has put in, by which I mean Revenue gained-say rent received-profit from Fixed Assets=SL Profit if he does something in that direction?

Like sells them off for luxury apartments, or commercial property- or a mix of the higher end of the two? I suppose he could stick exorbitant rent on however but how long would it take total expenditure to be made up in rental charges?

[NickJ]

3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes, but who made it happen?  Stephen Kew?  Robert Hobbs?  Des Williams?      Scott Davidson?  John Laycock?  Deryn Coller?  

SteveL did obviously. But if he didn't, somebody or some other persons would have.

And not necessarily putting themselves in the position where they owned it.

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

31 minutes ago, NickJ said:

SteveL did obviously. But if he didn't, somebody or some other persons would have.

And not necessarily putting themselves in the position where they owned it.

 

You say that, but we’d seen countless boards and different regimes bottle it. Maybe someone would have picked it up eventually, but I couldn’t see it happening without Lansdown, or unless he sold out to someone else with the same vision.

[reddoh]

4 hours ago, NickJ said:

The application for the Williams/Wedlock stand redevelopment, which would have increased the capacity to 30,000 was made in 1999. Permission was granted in 2001. Around 2005 the club announced that the project was going ahead with grants and secured lending. I remember quite well the official site showing it with comments from Colin Sexstone etc. For whatever reason the owners of the club, ie by then Steve Lansdown with Keith Dawe - subsequently chose not to progress that permission. There may have been a good reason for that, but if there was, it was never given, so far as I recall.

The point being that it's not necessarily correct to state, as many do, that Bristol City is indebted to Steve Lansdown for a redeveloped stadium, because clearly there were plans to do so anyway.

 

not having a pop many plans go to waste, things don't happen, shit happens life goes on.

[James54De]

13 hours ago, NickJ said:

You are correct, it wasn't just replacing the seats in the Dolman:

 

1999 - Detailed application to replace the Williams (West) Stand with a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803708F&activeTab=summary

 

1999 - Outline application to replace the Wedlock (South) and Dolman (East) Stand with new stands. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=9803709P&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Reserved Matters application (ref 03/00538) for the demolition of existing Wedlock stand and erection of a new three storey 5000 seater stand with ancillary accommodation. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IDFZEJDN2D000&activeTab=summary

 

2005 - Renewal of full planning permission (Application No 98/03708/F) for the demolition of the Williams (West) Stand and construction of a new 11,543 seat stand. | Bristol City Football Club Ashton Road Ashton Bristol BS3 2EJ

https://planningonline.bristol.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?keyVal=IN7NZSDN3J000&activeTab=summary

 

It was announced on the Official site around the time that the plans were going ahead, financed by grants from the Football Trust or Football Foundation or whatever it was, and bank lending secured on the asset.

 

Off note, but is there any pictures of any of these proposals? 

[NickJ]

3 hours ago, James54De said:

Off note, but is there any pictures of any of these proposals? 

It used to be possible to find it in the archived news pages of the official site, but any links referring to this lead to a page not found, so I assume the club have permanently deleted it.

This link - ignore the reference to George Ferguson and Ashton Vale - however:

shows the proposed Wedlock at the bottom of page 2 and the Williams at the top of page 3.

[CiderJar]

Just in case there is any doubt remaining, have a read of the article on the attached

 

(N B. By their nature accounts are a year out if date)....