What position in the league is acceptable this season

[supercidered]

3 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

No I said if we have a massive improvement from LJ and Holden last 5 games, implying that I thought we were largely shite under Holden. 

Ok sorry mate. We are agreed then

[supercidered]

4 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Why? 

Do you not believe in the possible, or are you happier ensconced in drudgery and misery. 

No balls been kicked, we're just as good as everyone else, and im not navel gazing with those who are showing reactionary depression. 

 

No depression here.

i can’t see how we are going to be 11 places better off ? No, I really don’t think that is possible at all. 16th definitely possible!

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

And how do you know this?? 

Magic? 

Different manager now and the squad is more than good enough. 

Sorry that doesnt agree with your negative forecast 

I'm basing my opinion on what I've seen of the players we have over two seasons. You can choose to be both pompous and sarcastic if you like, not my issue.............certainly not going to waste my time on you.

[RedM]

25 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Be prepared to be disappointed is all I would answer to that....which is the reason I have lowered my expectations to very reasonable levels and will be judging Holden purely on the two criteria of quality of football and not being dragged into a relegation scrap. Low expectations? I couldn't agree more and the reasons are simply that I do not see the benefit of chucking gratuitous criticism Dean's way based on league position or results when I know where the real issues at the club lie and, just as importantly, it will improve my blood pressure on a Saturday afternoon!!

If he were suddenly allowed to bring in two or three marquee signings then that might be a different matter.......................

Yes my expectations are lowered. As I said elsewhere I’m sure the unofficial message is for him to hold the ship off the rocks until Covid makes it safe for the money ( customers) to return. But my point is,in answering the question, is why should our expectations be any lower. As I said they chose to replace the manager and this manager ( no matter who is is) is there to do a better job, otherwise what’s the point.

I hope Dean gets some understanding from the fans, but he has been handed control ( for what it’s worth) and now Ashton and Co have to ensure their man does the business. I’m sure his assistants are there to attract or identify ‘the next Tammy’ type loans.

[Andy Horsman]

I'd be happy with 10th all things considered. As I said elsewhere, my fear is that we will be closer to the bottom 6 than top 6. Faced with replacing a leader in midfield and potentially our top scorer and player with most assists, if Fam and Nicky go, it could be a tough old season. 

[IAmNick]

23 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Worse league, different manager covid affects, returning players, so forth and so on. 

 

There's loads to why anything is possible.. 

So, it's agree with you or else, and straight to the personal insults. 

How very quaint. 

Enjoy the bubble. 

Doors always open if you want to actually engage rather than go ostrich.. 

Oh come on.

You predict 1st - 16th which is 2/3rds of the table, very brave. You then accuse others of naval gazing and reactionary depression because you don't agree with their more negative predictions - You can't be surprised people are a bit hostile in their responses.

You could equally say that you the fact the last 1/3 of the table seems to have disappeared even from the "possible" in your prediction means you are as guilty of a bias as anyone else.

[LoyalRed]

Top 10 keep job as it’s improvement on 12th but needs to be competing for playoffs consistently and be in the top 6 by following season 

[IAmNick]

6 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Oh come on what? 

It's an open league, we can win it. 

We could also not win it

Champs is traditionally close, and even slight changes in form can make a big change. 

I'm expecting an exciting league, especially with all the changes and restrictions hence the prediction.

25 points seperated 6th to bottom of the league last season. 

Cant see any reason why we wont finish in the initial bracket I mentioned to be honest. 

 

 

Your bracket is 2/3 of the table, it's not really much of a prediction is it. I suspect there's a reason the poll at the top doesn't have a single option "1st  - 24th"!

People are predicting we may well struggle and lots have given good reasoned explanations of why.

6 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Bias, because I'm not rabid for doom and gloom and appreciate where we are at? Strange accusation to make. 

 

I'm simply saying if you steam into the thread throwing ad hominems like "naval gazing" "rabid for doom and gloom" and "reactionary depression" around, and then have the audacity to imply it's other people who don't accept a dissenting opinion you can't be surprised some responses are a bit hostile.

 

[CHIPLEY RED]

I voted play offs but I would also be happy with top 10

I am not inspired by the new appointment but will get behind the team including the new manager. What I can't understand is the 1 person who voted relegated 

[IAmNick]

2 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

It's better that strawman's and whataboutery, Nick. 

It's also better than trying to use glib generalisations as to why or other people should share in the collective navel gazing or negative forecasting, as if they are somehow the better view. 

I respect that you have your opinions, however I'm not going to suddenly join the pack mentality just because this board wants to mourn or grieve or generally ignore anything that isnt tried to be implemented through repetition of doom mongering. 

If we were to be crap this season, deal with that at the time rather than getting a peverse solace from predicting we will be crap and then even more oddly revelling in it. 

And in a prediction / "what would you be happy with" thread, if people predict we're not going to do very well they should simply not post then?

Everyone wants us to do well, we're all city fans. Some people predict we're not going to do well. That doesn't necessarily mean a pack mentality - maybe they've just looked at the facts and arrived at the same conclusion.

If you want to discount that as things like wanting to mourn/grieve and doom mongering that's your choice I suppose! I think lots of people have given good and reasoned answers as to why they think we may well struggle this season.

[phantom]

1 hour ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Worse league, different manager covid affects, returning players, so forth and so on. 

Interesting to read, are you essentially saying that all other teams will be weaker except for us?

There are 9 sides that were better than us last season, that are still in the league. At this moment in time there is nothing that would point to us bettering them this time around

Whether Bournemouth, Watford, Norwich (with parachute payments), Coventry, Rotherham and Wycombe are weaker than Leeds, WBA, Fulham, Charlton, Wigan and Hull is very questionable

Who knows with a change of manager how things will change (if at all), but not sure calling the league "worse" is anywhere near correct

[James54De]

I’ll take anything but relegation. 

[Atticus]

4 hours ago, HiddenGem7 said:

I haven't seen anyone saying they think we'll be in the playoffs, its more about what is an acceptable finishing position given our world class recruitment campaign with 100+ candidates, multi-stage sifting process, and rigorous interviewing resulting in the best possible human being appointed. 

Do i expect us to finish top 6?  No, I expect the above to be exposed as the absolute BS it obviously is.

Yep completely agree.

I personally think we will probably finish lower half of the table.

Our squad obviously wasn't good enough last season. I cant see it improving massively. And we're losing key players.

Plus we have an even more inexperienced man at the helm

But. Like someone else said. We have to hold the board accountable with the complete bull**** lies they spin in order to sell season cards.

So. Consisting the fact Johnson was sacked for not reaching playoffs. And it took them 6 weeks to make sure they got the man they believe will push us on. Top 6 is the remit.

[BRISTOL86]

The message from Steve Lansdown on Lee Johnson's departure was that finishing outside of the playoff positions was unacceptable.

If SL doesn't show the door to Dean and his merry men when that doesn't happen, he's a massive hypocrite.

By making a wildly unpopular and unfathomable appointment, it now has to be backed up with evidence that he is, indeed, outstanding. Anything less than top six and it's a failure and an embarrassment for SL & Co.

[supercidered]

2 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Worse league, different manager covid affects, returning players, so forth and so on. 

 

There's loads to why anything is possible.. 

So, it's agree with you or else, and straight to the personal insults. 

How very quaint. 

Enjoy the bubble. 

Doors always open if you want to actually engage rather than go ostrich.. 

I really do admire your optimism. Fair play.

However, the first paragraph is pretty subjective at best.

1st place whilst not impossible is at least massively unlikely. What is more likely is closer to 16th.

Thats not being negative or depressing it’s where we as a club are right now. 
If the 3 musketeers somehow become something they have no track record of doing before then great. If the return of loan players from lower leagues somehow become the answer to creating and taking of chances then great. If the same players bolster a joke of a defence then great.

All we have is hope but nothing of substance that suggests any glory any time soon.

 

[IAmNick]

22 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Its a shame that your post seems to want to try and define the narrative based on assumption and generalisations, before doubling down on the we're doomed narrative. 

It's a proper shame as your posts used to have nuance and debate and not repeat ad nauseum trying to force of will your way to an I'm right and your wrong narrative. 

I disagree with your viewpoint, i also disagree with your reasoning. Stating well that's what everyone else thinks doesnt make things more valid either. 

I never asserted anything to do with people not posting, you did in the quote above. Those arent and weren't my words either. 

I get it your post wants us to not do well for reasons outlined. However, it's not and us and them mentality as your post seems to want to portray. 

I do have real concerns about the double standards that we apply to our team in all of this especially against lauded others who are in the same league or further afield. 

One on hand we have a group of fans who expect and want us to do poorly. 

One another we have fans who  seem to go well hard on the team that they arent good enough and expect us to do poorly. 

Those who actually want us to do well are shot down and ostracised a

Reading feedback from other fans on other places we're as in us fans are seen as a laughing stock ji because of our masochistic projections and overall negativity. 

Lurking is presumably a preferred option then, because Idon't want to share in the collective malaise, depression and drudgery from those who claim to be fans or support the club yet, rip it to bits over every little thing that doesnt go the way the fans wantvit to, isnt perfect, or doesnt fall inyo their lap with the minimal of effort.  It's a funny type of support is that and not one I'd want to actively be a part of. 

 

That was a lot of words not about what I'd written. I'm also not sure how my posts are attempting to force anything - could you point that out?

I don't think we're doomed at all, I think you've imagined that because you can't see past the group mentality you've built in your head. I think we'll probably end up mid table. I don't want us to "not do well", that's ridiculous. I've supported this club for over 25 years and have paid for my season ticket already, as I always do.

If you think our fans are any more masochistic or negative than any others I'd say you're fairly wide of the mark. The majority of posts on threads like these are reasoned and well thought out in my opinion.

Just because you disagree with the consensus you are making the assumption that the consensus must be wrong rather than trying to argue against it. Something being the consensus opinion doesn't make it wrong simply for that reason.

You are assuming the people on the other "side" to you are coming to their conclusion for non footballing reasons - "depression" "collective malaise" "naval gazing" "pack mentality" - these are all phrases you have used to describe people who disagree with you. Your reasoning is mostly attacking the other group for having the same view as each other, or being obsessed depressives who hate club, rather than debating in support of your own opinion. Lots of people have explained well why they think we might struggle.

"Those who want us to do well are shot down" - we all WANT us to do well, nobody is being shot down for wanting us to do well. The people who predict we will struggle will be delighted if we don't - we're all City fans after all. Wanting something is different from predicting it though... I want to win the lottery. I don't predict I will.

If you look back, the person who came in and started throwing the ad hominems I mentioned above around at people with a differing opinion was you.

edit: Even in your post above, you can't help it with the second line about my posts. All that's changed is you disagree with me. That can happen without forcing wills and narratives on each other.

[Numero Uno]

42 minutes ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Its a shame that your post seems to want to try and define the narrative based on assumption and generalisations, before doubling down on the we're doomed narrative. 

It's a proper shame as your posts used to have nuance and debate and not repeat ad nauseum trying to force of will your way to an I'm right and your wrong narrative. 

I disagree with your viewpoint, i also disagree with your reasoning. Stating well that's what everyone else thinks doesnt make things more valid either. 

I never asserted anything to do with people not posting, you did in the quote above. Those arent and weren't my words either. 

I get it your post wants us to not do well for reasons outlined. However, it's not and us and them mentality as your post seems to want to portray. 

I do have real concerns about the double standards that we apply to our team in all of this especially against lauded others who are in the same league or further afield. 

One on hand we have a group of fans who expect and want us to do poorly. 

One another we have fans who  seem to go well hard on the team that they arent good enough and expect us to do poorly. 

Those who actually want us to do well are shot down and ostracised a

Reading feedback from other fans on other places we're as in us fans are seen as a laughing stock ji because of our masochistic projections and overall negativity. 

Lurking is presumably a preferred option then, because Idon't want to share in the collective malaise, depression and drudgery from those who claim to be fans or support the club yet, rip it to bits over every little thing that doesnt go the way the fans wantvit to, isnt perfect, or doesnt fall inyo their lap with the minimal of effort.  It's a funny type of support is that and not one I'd want to actively be a part of. 

 

So you feel "entitled" to rip into a supporter who has put his money where his mouth is, as many of us have, but from what I can gather that is not something you can lay claim to yourself? I would say that Nick's "claim" as you put it to be a fan is a very valid one.

Having a belief that the club does not CURRENTLY possess a squad anything like good enough to finish top of the league is, I suggest, nothing more than an OPINION based upon a very realistic interpretation of the facts of last season's league position and performances and also the position/performances in the season before, whether it is an interpretation you particularly agree with or not.

You very rarely go from 12th place in season 19/20 to Champions the following season without a significant change of personnel (which is yet to occur). I would be interested to be pointed in the direction of credible examples in football where that has happened? Believing that that we are not top of the table material does not make anyone "depressed", "navel gazers" or a victim of malaise........to be honest that is a bizarrely defensive, over-reactionary, nonsensical thought process invented by yourself.

To claim that there are fans out there who have already purchased season tickets for next season and yet WANT us to do poorly is very disrespectful to people who clearly, by their very actions of paying up front, have the interests at the club at heart. But hey, you would seem to know their underlying intentions a lot better (in your own mind anyway).

You claim that our fans are seen as a laughing stock because of our masochistic projections and overall negativity..............that's quite a sweeping statement to make so how about backing that up?

 

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, supercidered said:

I really do admire your optimism. Fair play.

However, the first paragraph is pretty subjective at best.

1st place whilst not impossible is at least massively unlikely. What is more likely is closer to 16th.

Thats not being negative or depressing it’s where we as a club are right now. 
If the 3 musketeers somehow become something they have no track record of doing before then great. If the return of loan players from lower leagues somehow become the answer to creating and taking of chances then great. If the same players bolster a joke of a defence then great.

All we have is hope but nothing of substance that suggests any glory any time soon.

 

Just throwing this out there....I think most of our opponents will be weaker as a result of covid.

[supercidered]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Just throwing this out there....I think most of our opponents will be weaker as a result of covid.

Maybe but not sure that it gives me much of a reason to be optimistic. 
Even the return of loan players doesn’t either and the likelihood of losing a couple of the team. No point in listing all of the other reasons to not feel elated at the moment.

Nothing I or any of us can do about it. One thing I think is certain and that is that it won’t be a boring season. It’s going to be a rollercoaster and I’m strapping myself in!

CTID 

 

[Natchfever]

19 hours ago, Redtrojan said:

Clearly we’ve been through a lengthy recruitment process for our new manager and the general consensus of opinion is that it appears a little underwhelming.

That may well turn out to be unfair and I wish Dean the best of luck and hope he is well supported by the owners.

In some ways having empty stadiums may be a blessing in disguise as I fear Dean would cop plenty of flack if we don’t start well ,which again could be premature,remember how close Ferguson came to the sack at old Trafford ,prior to his long run of successes.

That said ,what is a reasonable expectation for this season??

I’m going to suggest flirting with the play offs but finishing in the top half of the table would be ok .....as long as it looks like we have a pattern of play and can build on that.

 

No idea how strong other clubs will be but having sacked Johnson (rightly) the new man must do better and take us to the "next level"

Therefore I expect playoffs because we are being told to trust the ownership and board.

[Kibs]

3 hours ago, phantom said:

Interesting to read, are you essentially saying that all other teams will be weaker except for us?

There are 9 sides that were better than us last season, that are still in the league. At this moment in time there is nothing that would point to us bettering them this time around

Whether Bournemouth, Watford, Norwich (with parachute payments), Coventry, Rotherham and Wycombe are weaker than Leeds, WBA, Fulham, Charlton, Wigan and Hull is very questionable

Who knows with a change of manager how things will change (if at all), but not sure calling the league "worse" is anywhere near correct

Well we’ve got a better coaching set up now haven’t we? That’s why we sacked Lee Johnson, to sort out that element. I think most people were of the opinion that our squad was capable of far better than what they were showing.

[Red_Alligator]

Top 10 for me now. And that's being a positive Gator. COYR! 

[Phileas Fogg]

4 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

The message from Steve Lansdown on Lee Johnson's departure was that finishing outside of the playoff positions was unacceptable.

If SL doesn't show the door to Dean and his merry men when that doesn't happen, he's a massive hypocrite.

By making a wildly unpopular and unfathomable appointment, it now has to be backed up with evidence that he is, indeed, outstanding. Anything less than top six and it's a failure and an embarrassment for SL & Co.

Exactly. The board could have made it so much easier by appointing Holden immediately, stating that due to the situation out of our control we will be looking to stabilise this season - many fans would’ve accepted that.

They did the opposite. They talked a big game about applications from around the world, someone to push us on etc etc. Now we have to hold Holden to that standard.

The board have made it so much harder for Holden. If they’d handled recruitment properly, most fans would’ve been happy with mid table, some young players getting games and attractive football. I would’ve been. They didn’t - so I’ll hold them to their own standards that they chose to publicise.

[Davefevs]

I guess the only thing against that would be those saying “why bother sacking LJ then”?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'd accept top 10, if good football, keeping the ship steady, renewing some and trading some, bringing on youth- I very much see this as a bit of a transitional season...remember only 14 players if I've done my sums right in contract come summer 2021! When that happens it represents a good opportunity for a more experienced and proven/higher calibre manager to come in and build from a cleaner slate. If we'd done something daft like (no disrespect to him, hope he does great) given Holden a multi year contract then I'd see it differently but I still wonder if this is part of the plan.

Then again, with other clubs weakening it could be seen as an opportunity- torn between reasonable midtable with all of the above- and playoffs, preferably to win them!

[oldstandrobin]

Predicted 12th for this last season. Reckon 17th for next. Hope I'm wrong but been watching them for a very long time now. However, the season after...............who knows ?

[luke_bristol]

It’s worth remembering our previous stints in the Championship - when the decline begins, it only ends with relegation.

 

I think the beginning of the end will be the forthcoming season. I really, really hope I’m wrong.

[BRISTOL86]

14 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Exactly. The board could have made it so much easier by appointing Holden immediately, stating that due to the situation out of our control we will be looking to stabilise this season - many fans would’ve accepted that.

They did the opposite. They talked a big game about applications from around the world, someone to push us on etc etc. Now we have to hold Holden to that standard.

The board have made it so much harder for Holden. If they’d handled recruitment properly, most fans would’ve been happy with mid table, some young players getting games and attractive football. I would’ve been. They didn’t - so I’ll hold them to their own standards that they chose to publicise.

Absolutely. Just like Johnson before him...mouth off in the media then be on the back foot...Ashton already backpedaling in his interview with GT where he basically said it’s not a case of ‘top six or sacked’.

So Ashton tells us what a collaborative, joined up process it is between the three of them, then publicly undermines what Lansdown says about the ambition and requirements of the manager in terms of league placing. 

Can’t work it out. 

[Spud55]

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just throwing this out there....I think most of our opponents will be weaker as a result of covid.

I am intrigued to see what you are basing this on as I don't think it will be the case. 

Realistically the prem will not notice the impact of Covid the rebates for TV money have been agreed and spread over the next few years, along with a big jump in overseas TV rights, they have all just been awarded more than ever, so the 3 teams coming down have more money than any 3 relegated sides have previously. 

The top half of the championship will only be weakened by losing players, and the majority of these will be going to prem teams where the prices will not be impacted, Brentford will still get massive money for their best players, same as anyone else who's got Prem clubs looking at the players and even the 3 relegated sides will have to be paying Market rate should they want players from good championship sides. 

I actually think that Covid makes it easier for the sides at the top end of the championship to strengthen, the best players in league 1 will be available for less than they were 6 months ago as the reality of Covid will bite hard at league 1 and 2 level. 

I think this year could well see the championship split into 2 with the top half strengthening and getting better and the rest beginning to lag some way behind. 

Until we make movement on transfers it will be difficult to tell where we are at, but as I suspect appointing Holden is some kind of let's try and hold station strategy if transfer policy follows that I can see us being way way behind a lot of teams in this league. 

As I don't yet see where teams above us get substantially weaker, and see plenty of teams below us who will get significantly stronger, Stoke, Huddersfield, Brum to name but 3.

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Just throwing this out there....I think most of our opponents will be weaker as a result of covid.

I am intrigued to see what you are basing this on as I don't think it will be the case. 

Realistically the prem will not notice the impact of Covid the rebates for TV money have been agreed and spread over the next few years, along with a big jump in overseas TV rights, they have all just been awarded more than ever, so the 3 teams coming down have more money than any 3 relegated sides have previously. 

The top half of the championship will only be weakened by losing players, and the majority of these will be going to prem teams where the prices will not be impacted, Brentford will still get massive money for their best players, same as anyone else who's got Prem clubs looking at the players and even the 3 relegated sides will have to be paying Market rate should they want players from good championship sides. 

I actually think that Covid makes it easier for the sides at the top end of the championship to strengthen, the best players in league 1 will be available for less than they were 6 months ago as the reality of Covid will bite hard at league 1 and 2 level. 

I think this year could well see the championship split into 2 with the top half strengthening and getting better and the rest beginning to lag some way behind. 

Until we make movement on transfers it will be difficult to tell where we are at, but as I suspect appointing Holden is some kind of let's try and hold station strategy if transfer policy follows that I can see us being way way behind a lot of teams in this league. 

As I don't yet see where teams above us get substantially weaker, and see plenty of teams below us who will get significantly stronger, Stoke, Huddersfield, Brum to name but 3.

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

I am intrigued to see what you are basing this on as I don't think it will be the case. 

Realistically the prem will not notice the impact of Covid the rebates for TV money have been agreed and spread over the next few years, along with a big jump in overseas TV rights, they have all just been awarded more than ever, so the 3 teams coming down have more money than any 3 relegated sides have previously. 

The top half of the championship will only be weakened by losing players, and the majority of these will be going to prem teams where the prices will not be impacted, Brentford will still get massive money for their best players, same as anyone else who's got Prem clubs looking at the players and even the 3 relegated sides will have to be paying Market rate should they want players from good championship sides. 

I actually think that Covid makes it easier for the sides at the top end of the championship to strengthen, the best players in league 1 will be available for less than they were 6 months ago as the reality of Covid will bite hard at league 1 and 2 level. 

I think this year could well see the championship split into 2 with the top half strengthening and getting better and the rest beginning to lag some way behind. 

Until we make movement on transfers it will be difficult to tell where we are at, but as I suspect appointing Holden is some kind of let's try and hold station strategy if transfer policy follows that I can see us being way way behind a lot of teams in this league. 

As I don't yet see where teams above us get substantially weaker, and see plenty of teams below us who will get significantly stronger, Stoke, Huddersfield, Brum to name but 3.

 

Purely on the basis that a lot of clubs were already close to FFP limits....have lost £x million in 19/20 and will lose £y million in 20/21.

There is tv money to repay to Sky, which may be staggered over a couple of years, but still has to be accounted for.

There are wage deferrals to repay from covid.

I do agree with what you say re Prem being largely unaffected, and I think your two tier Championship is probably more accurate than me saying “most teams will be weaker”.  Those clubs who’ve been well run and have FFP contingency will likely be the top tier, those poorly run and in financial difficulty likely to be bottom tier.

Derby (EFL meeting pending), Wednesday (-12), Reading, Birmingham (we will see whether Bellingham sale gives them more financial stability but they are still playing catch-up on the Redknapp era), are gonna find it difficult.  Plus the 3 promoted clubs (Wycombe,  Coventry and Rotherham) are gonna find it tough to compete financially.

Stoke are a really interesting one.  Under O’Neill, they have improved massively, but this is their final year of PPs (only £18m this year), and they still have a bloody big wage bill (£56m)  and amortisation (£28m) which I didn’t see too much sign of reducing last season.  So I’m reserving judgement on them until we see their window activity....which is probably the case for a lot of those middling teams.

The fact that very few have done any business yet, leads me to think clubs are adjusting.  But we will see, still early days when window doesn’t end til mid October.

So that’s my thoughts....good thoughts from you too.