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Was Holden muffled under Lee?


Top Robin

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2 hours ago, And Its Smith said:

The assistants job isn’t to battle with the manager.  It’s to carry out the managers instructions and also put forward other ideas and suggestions.  If the manager doesn’t take those suggestions then it’s hardly the assistants fault.

Having someone constantly constructively challenge you is a fantastic development tool. It forces you to rationalise your decisions and makes it very clear when you're talking shit. If ever you find yourself saying "just because", you know you've messed up.

I will only ever work with people that challenge me and I will always try to challenge those around me. We're all a damn sight better for it, too.

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2 hours ago, 2015 said:

I think Dean always came across certainly more level headed than Johnson and McAllister. Take the Smith winner vs Man Utd, calmly stood on the touchline preparing the players for kick off again. 
 

All I really hope for really is for City to not play the style of football we had under Johnson for the past 2 years, it was simply awful to watch. If there is more of the same, I won't be too impressed

I think it’s cause he supports United! COYR

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Talk is cheap & anyone can promise attacking exciting football as their identity. However it is a very different matter actually carrying it out in the Championship - particularly if your defence & midfield do not have the strength or ability to allow you to do that. Let’s see how attacking & exciting we are when we lose 4 or 5 on the bounce and are in the bottom 3.

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4 hours ago, Top Robin said:

 

I cannot believe that Holden could have agreed with some of the bizarre team selections, set ups, tactics and substitutions which happened when Lee was in charge.

He must have had different ideas about certain things but was either unable to get them across to Lee or had them dismissed.

He certainly alluded to some fresh and novel things in his post appointment interview.

I really hope that some of his ideas which may have been muffled under Lee, can now be put into action without a stubborn blocker in the way.

Let's hope they work! 

 

Don't know why, but I read it as Muff Led 

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1 hour ago, Kykoliko said:

Having someone constantly constructively challenge you is a fantastic development tool. It forces you to rationalise your decisions and makes it very clear when you're talking shit. If ever you find yourself saying "just because", you know you've messed up.

I will only ever work with people that challenge me and I will always try to challenge those around me. We're all a damn sight better for it, too.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on this. ?

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4 hours ago, Northern Red said:

The "I'm not just going to bring my mate in to agree with everything I do" comment at the press conference was telling. That suggests that he was the dissenting voice amongst the 3 of them and was outnumbered.

So does that make him strong enough to be head coach? But why do we need two assistant coaches like before? 3s a crowd right? 

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45 minutes ago, Cardy said:

Talk is cheap & anyone can promise attacking exciting football as their identity. However it is a very different matter actually carrying it out in the Championship - particularly if your defence & midfield do not have the strength or ability to allow you to do that. Let’s see how attacking & exciting we are when we lose 4 or 5 on the bounce and are in the bottom 3.

Indeed....anyone remember Woodgate’s pre-season interview last season?

I’m right behind Holden, but about 1;35 in, we hear JW say very similar to Holden.  Woodgate’s team was anything but how he described.

I do think those 5 games for Dean were vital in seeing that he can play a brand of football that fans might enjoy.  I’m sure at times it will be tough.

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Didn't see much from holdens 5 games in charge to make me think he had much different to offer. Weird formations, uninteresting football. 

If that's holden "being his own man" Jesus christ. 

Holden is as complicit as Lee and McAllister and should have been fired with those two. 

If you were getting "muffled" by Lee Johnson that doesn't say much for his leadership qualities. 

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On 13/08/2020 at 18:33, exAtyeoMax said:

I was a bit suspect about the coaching and chain of command, and how the players respected that when that video came out of them mimicking the coaching staff. The players appeared to respect DH & Macca more than LJ…:dunno: Who knows!

What video is that?

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5 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

holden had a gift of his first 2 games against two seriously crap teams.as soon as the opposition improved,our so say better performances were a thing of the past.personally,i thought we reverted to type pretty quickly

I understand where you are coming from but how many times under LJ did we stuff up gift games to lower teams in our league & lower leagues? Too many to mention I fear. Anyhow we will soon know ?.

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9 hours ago, redsquirrel said:

holden had a gift of his first 2 games against two seriously crap teams.as soon as the opposition improved,our so say better performances were a thing of the past.personally,i thought we reverted to type pretty quickly

I disagree, every City fan knows the history with Warnock and no game against him is a "gift game". Hull maybe more so but still a side that were battling to stay up.

Hard to judge him on 5 games in 2.5 weeks, good or bad really. I think we'll see a noticable difference in this new season, especially if these new coaches are as good as their credentials suggest

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5 hours ago, bpexile said:

I understand where you are coming from but how many times under LJ did we stuff up gift games to lower teams in our league & lower leagues? Too many to mention I fear. Anyhow we will soon know ?.

Especially when you’ve not won in 9.  Even Hull’s 9 game form was 5pts, ours was 2pts!

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9 hours ago, MarcusX said:

What video is that?

I am assuming it was the one released by the club to show team bonding the night before an away game..........when Ashley Williams was taking the piss out of HNM (in a banter way rather than a nasty way before some brain dead ****** with an agenda uses it as a stick to beat Williams with).

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8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I am assuming it was the one released by the club to show team bonding the night before an away game..........when Ashley Williams was taking the piss out of HNM (in a banter way rather than a nasty way before some brain dead ****** with an agenda uses it as a stick to beat Williams with).

Not seen that.

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24 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I am assuming it was the one released by the club to show team bonding the night before an away game..........when Ashley Williams was taking the piss out of HNM (in a banter way rather than a nasty way before some brain dead ****** with an agenda uses it as a stick to beat Williams with).

Sammie Smozdics and Bailey Wright doing impressions of Macca and Deano

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I’m not sure ‘muffled’ is the right term. Outranked is probably more appropriate. 
Lee was Head Coach and had the final say on things to do with selection and tactics. Whilst the assistant can suggest and even object, LJ had the final say and carried the can when it didn’t work - which is the correct arrangement. Ultimately Lee was sacked and rightly so - he took responsibility - the decisions were his and if they worked he’d be praised and if they didn’t he’d be criticised. 
You can’t have the assistant ‘trumping’ the manager - that’s the tail wagging the dog. 
Even if they furiously disagreed with each other and the assistant was proved right after a defeat, it’s still the managers call. 
I’m sure this happened on occasion - and probably the other way around too, where Lee stuck to a tactic which Deano disagreed with but it paid off and we won. 
It’s a credit to both men’s professionalism that they kept their (probable) disagreements private. 

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On 13/08/2020 at 16:46, Kykoliko said:

Having someone constantly constructively challenge you is a fantastic development tool. It forces you to rationalise your decisions and makes it very clear when you're talking shit. If ever you find yourself saying "just because", you know you've messed up.

I will only ever work with people that challenge me and I will always try to challenge those around me. We're all a damn sight better for it, too.

I think it is a balance though and I think the emphasis is on the word "constructively".

I absolutely agree about challenging people and wanting people to challenge me but I do think there are three essential rules for doing that effectively.

1) As you say, be constructive

2) Try not to just say what you think is wrong but also suggest what might work instead

3) Accept the fact there will come a point where the senior person in the discussion will have to make a final decision and, at that point, do what you can to make it work, irrespective of whether you agree with it. There is nothing positive or constructive about having a "yes man" but neither is there anything positive or constructive about someone who undermines decisions that they disagree with. 

By which I'm saying that it might well be that Holden was challenging Johnson and was pushing for different direction but was then, once he realised he'd failed to win a particular battle, backing what Johnson had decided and doing his best to make it work. If so, I see that as a strength rather than a weakness. 

Edit - in other words, pretty much exactly what @bcfcredandwhite said in the post exactly above mine. 

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On 13/08/2020 at 15:54, MATT BCFC said:

I would imagine so.

It strikes me that LJs ego is a big issue and I get the impression he wouldn't have took kindly to suggestions from others. 

The interview with Henry Winter LJ did made me think he's almost delusional. 

Wonder where he'd get that from

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Like some others have said, we'll never really know unless there's a kiss-and-tell recount that comes out at some point.

Some assistants are clearly their own men and immediately buck the trend - Hansi Flick at Bayern - some don't. We'll know how Holden thinks Bristol City should be coached relative to LJ from his tactics and personnel choices in the first few games.

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