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Was Holden muffled under Lee?


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I cannot believe that Holden could have agreed with some of the bizarre team selections, set ups, tactics and substitutions which happened when Lee was in charge.

He must have had different ideas about certain things but was either unable to get them across to Lee or had them dismissed.

He certainly alluded to some fresh and novel things in his post appointment interview.

I really hope that some of his ideas which may have been muffled under Lee, can now be put into action without a stubborn blocker in the way.

Let's hope they work! 

 

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1 minute ago, Top Robin said:

 

I cannot believe that Holden could have agreed with some of the bizarre team selections, set ups, tactics and substitutions which happened when Lee was in charge.

He must have had different ideas about certain things but was either unable to get them across to Lee or had them dismissed.

He certainly alluded to some fresh and novel things in his post appointment interview.

I really hope that some of his ideas which may have been muffled under Lee, can now be put into action without a stubborn blocker in the way.

Let's hope they work! 

 

we will see if you are right once the season gets under way 

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Top Robin said:

 

I cannot believe that Holden could have agreed with some of the bizarre team selections, set ups, tactics and substitutions which happened when Lee was in charge.

He must have had different ideas about certain things but was either unable to get them across to Lee or had them dismissed.

He certainly alluded to some fresh and novel things in his post appointment interview.

I really hope that some of his ideas which may have been muffled under Lee, can now be put into action without a stubborn blocker in the way.

Let's hope they work! 

 

Yes!

And that doesn’t mean Dean gets off Scott-free, as I question why he wasn’t forceful enough to get his thoughts across when he was assistant.

Having said that, sacking Macca might tell you something!  As will comments (paraphrased) “I don’t want assistants who always agree with me”.

Make if that what you will 🧐

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It's a really good point and unfortunately one we'll never know the answer too. I guess with 3 people making up the management team you could see a scenario where Holden was 'outvoted' on many issues or LJ just flat out disagreeing with him - I would love to have been a fly on the wall for the tactical discussions over the past 12 months. Who's idea was it primarily to go 3-5-2 for that spell at the start of the season where Benik and Palmer were so good? And then similarly for the myriad of changes almost weekly since then other than that spell of 4-4-1-1 pre-Nakhi in January. Who's great idea was it to put Benik on the left wing and play no creative players against Sheff Wed after lockdown? Obviously LJ is ultimately responsible for all of these but I'd love to know who's bright ideas they were in the first place haha

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16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

And that doesn’t mean Dean gets off Scott-free, as I question why he wasn’t forceful enough to get his thoughts across when he was assistant

It's one thing getting your thoughts across, but he could not have made LJ do anything other than LJ thought was the right approach.

Nomatter how flawed LJ's tactics and formations may have been, it was his head on the block so he had to do what he thought was best despite Holden's take on things. 

Edited by Red Skin
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Post title conjures up all sorts of unsavoury images..

But was Holden muffled ? I would guess yes after hearing some of the stuff he said and sacking Jamie Mac.

As for why he didn't make his voice heard, it may well be that LJ was insistent it was his way or the highway (like a lot of managers) and with JM backing him up I wouldn't think Holden had much of a chance of his opinions being taken on board. Or maybe Holdens opinions were simply deemed not credible. 

Who knows for sure :dunno:

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The assistants job isn’t to battle with the manager.  It’s to carry out the managers instructions and also put forward other ideas and suggestions.  If the manager doesn’t take those suggestions then it’s hardly the assistants fault. 

I will always remember threads on here slagging Millen as a bad assistant when things were going wrong and then praising him when things were going well

As fans we have no idea how good an assistant is at their job. Sometimes it’s okay to say ‘i don’t know’

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Just now, Zip Nolan said:

Which makes you wonder what was the point of him being here?

FFS.

So unless the manager does everything an assistant says he should then he has no value?

In your world, what happens when you have two assistants with opposing views?  Only the assistant that can impose his point of view (regardless of validity) on the manager is worth keeping around?

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2 minutes ago, Zip Nolan said:

Which makes you wonder what was the point of him being here?

Indeed, also not liking the whole Holden is his own man stuff implying that he was ignored by Lee. 

If he really was his own man he would not have put up with a boss that ignored him for 4 years. 

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3 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

If he really was his own man he would not have put up with a boss that ignored him for 4 years. 

Bit harsh. His remit was assistant. He can offer his thoughts and have them ignored and he’s still doing his job. He wouldn’t be naive enough to think that it was a collaborative management, there’s a reason LJ was paid the big money and he wasn’t - he (rightly) called the shots over anything tactical.  

Perhaps LJ became less and less inclined to listen to those around him over the years. Perhaps DH could spy that his opportunity may come and decided the best course of action was to keep his head down. 

Any number of reasons to not rock the boat especially if your family is settled. 

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1 minute ago, Spud55 said:

 

If he really was his own man he would not have put up with a boss that ignored him for 4 years. 

Who says he ignored him for 4 years?!!  If he had no value he would have been moved on.  And he he didn't feel valued he would have left.  

I wasn't particularly excited with Holden being appointed coach, much as I admire his personal qualities, but can we just let it go now??!!!

 

 

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To be honest, it's entirely speculation as to what influence Holden had on the decision making of streaky Johnson. Unless we were flies on the wall, we'd not know.

We can say the standard of coaching doesn't appear to be that amazing from anyone, when you watch us not defend the far post repeatedly from corners and give more than half our throw-ins away to the opposition. Maybe the new guys will improve this.

However as head coach Holden might be shit or he might be sugar. We really don't know. He's an unknown element. That's why I favoured appointing someone with more of a track record so we could at least say "he is more likely to be good than bad".

Anyway, decision taken now, so I'll hope for the best and give Holden my support like I would any new manager.

He has a way to go to prove himself before we say "Johnson stifled his creativity" though.

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I think Dean always came across certainly more level headed than Johnson and McAllister. Take the Smith winner vs Man Utd, calmly stood on the touchline preparing the players for kick off again. 
 

All I really hope for really is for City to not play the style of football we had under Johnson for the past 2 years, it was simply awful to watch. If there is more of the same, I won't be too impressed

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18 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

FFS.

So unless the manager does everything an assistant says he should then he has no value?

In your world, what happens when you have two assistants with opposing views?  Only the assistant that can impose his point of view (regardless of validity) on the manager is worth keeping around?

I would say the Assistant that can impose his point of view with validity is worth keeping around

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I'm sure Dean Holden wasn't "muffled" as such - but he way well have ideas that were not compatible with LJ's thinking, which he can now bring to fruition. I hope so anyway!

Good luck to our new team, not my personal preference, but that's all done with now, so I wish them well. 

Edited by Red_Alligator
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15 minutes ago, 2015 said:

All I really hope for really is for City to not play the style of football we had under Johnson for the past 2 years, it was simply awful to watch. If there is more of the same, I won't be too impressed

I think he’s nailed his colours to the mast early on in that regard, think his first interview mentioned exciting, attacking football, so suggests to me that our recent ‘identity’ really wasn’t his call. 

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51 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Indeed, also not liking the whole Holden is his own man stuff implying that he was ignored by Lee. 

If he really was his own man he would not have put up with a boss that ignored him for 4 years. 

Bill's to pay..?

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18 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I think he’s nailed his colours to the mast early on in that regard, think his first interview mentioned exciting, attacking football, so suggests to me that our recent ‘identity’ really wasn’t his call. 

The proof will be in the matches we play

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1 hour ago, And Its Smith said:

The assistants job isn’t to battle with the manager.  It’s to carry out the managers instructions and also put forward other ideas and suggestions.  If the manager doesn’t take those suggestions then it’s hardly the assistants fault. 

I will always remember threads on here slagging Millen as a bad assistant when things were going wrong and then praising him when things were going well

As fans we have no idea how good an assistant is at their job. Sometimes it’s okay to say ‘i don’t know’

Exactly this! Holden may have his own ideas and perhaps would have taken city in a different direction but he was there mostly to assist, coach and implement LJ's ideas into the team.  He could make suggestions or reason what is/isn't a good idea but ultimately had to follow LJ'S instructions and decisions.

Holden is free of those shackles now so it will be interesting what he does with this team.

 

 

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I would imagine so.

It strikes me that LJs ego is a big issue and I get the impression he wouldn't have took kindly to suggestions from others. 

The interview with Henry Winter LJ did made me think he's almost delusional. 

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1 hour ago, Spud55 said:

Indeed, also not liking the whole Holden is his own man stuff implying that he was ignored by Lee. 

If he really was his own man he would not have put up with a boss that ignored him for 4 years. 

It's amazing what people will do when they have mouths to feed. Perhaps he hasn't got tens of millions under the floorboards like you?!!!

Edited by Numero Uno
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1 hour ago, 2015 said:

I think Dean always came across certainly more level headed than Johnson and McAllister. Take the Smith winner vs Man Utd, calmly stood on the touchline preparing the players for kick off again. 
 

All I really hope for really is for City to not play the style of football we had under Johnson for the past 2 years, it was simply awful to watch. If there is more of the same, I won't be too impressed

Firstly, Holden may not have been as delighted at City's winner because he is, or was then, a Man U ST holder. Born in Swinton literally a very long throw from Old Trafford. Even the pro's must be upset when the team they work for, beats the team they have supported all their life?

That's the trivia.

From events since LJ went and Holden has replaced him, I consider it is realistic that Dean, who was chosen by LJ as his coaching assistant, and Johnson must have had a growing distance of ideas. If that is so, there are two ways to look at it. 

Dean, if he did not agree tactics and formations, should he have resigned? He maybe had opportunities at other clubs but chose to stick it out until the inevitable departure  of Johnson.

So did he stay because he wanted to manage City?

He has already, allegedly courtesy Ashton, that he has dealt with two who have left the club.

Ruthless? Or just making sure that he has the support of all the football staff?

Unless he writes his autobiography and is totally open with events and facts, we'll never know.

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I think it's fair to say on first impressions that the terminology that came out of Lee Johnson's mouth post match is very unlikely to be repeated by Dean Holden. I can see the balance shift from tactical management towards man management. I think the previous manager was way too immersed in tactics to remotely bother about managing people effectively.

So it probably wasn't a case of being muffled but having some different ideas that were never implemented due to the over-riding direction that the previous manager was taking.

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