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Joe Morrell and Liam Walsh


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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I always think the Derby (a) game is a really good example of 5212 with ball, 532 without it, with clear intention to force Derby wide, and then squeeze that side of the pitch....by shifting across purposely, not half-hearted.  Palmer got into LCM to give Rowe some help, but always with a mind to get free if we win the ball.  Some of the space he got in first half was great.  That is what I want to see.

Yeah that was a good example.

Still unsure about Palmer in general for CM though- also the conversion rate respectively for us and the opposition, the fatigue week in week out without sufficient resting in possession time- all can stack up in the end.

Is for tactical reasons I'd play Paterson or possibly even Walsh in there. Palmer could be suitable in a variety of games though.

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53 minutes ago, Dynamite Red said:

As we know the step up to the Championship is huge, I think with the inexperience we have in midfield this is a big ask for both to step up. It's a big gamble to rely on what we currently have.

Didn't seem too hard for Freeman, Pack, Smith, Reid amongst many others from our league 1 squad who weren't midfielders but managed to make the step up with little to no experience in the Championship. 

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7 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Didn't seem too hard for Freeman, Pack, Smith, Reid amongst many others from our league 1 squad who weren't midfielders but managed to make the step up with little to no experience in the Championship. 

Wrong, not in their first season, it took time for them to adjust hence we battled to stay up.

Expecting Morrell and Walsh accompanied with the likes of Nagy and Massengo to perform consistently at this level is naive and unrealistic I think, very little Championship experience between them and for Morrell and Walsh a much bigger step up from League 1 than people think. 

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9 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah that was a good example.

Still unsure about Palmer in general for CM though- also the conversion rate respectively for us and the opposition, the fatigue week in week out without sufficient resting in possession time- all can stack up in the end.

Is for tactical reasons I'd play Paterson or possibly even Walsh in there. Palmer could be suitable in a variety of games though.

I think we have the players to play 433, which will enable us to have for ex Massengo/Nagy-Walsh-Morrell as a midfield 3 and Palmer-Wells-Weimann. He played wide left of front 3 at Chelsea and this formation enables us to use his skill on the pitch with protection of midfield 3 behind him. 

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12 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Didn't seem too hard for Freeman, Pack, Smith, Reid amongst many others from our league 1 squad who weren't midfielders but managed to make the step up with little to no experience in the Championship. 

All but Smith were pretty much invisible for most of our first season back up. Only Smith and Kodjia kept us competitive and I reckon, without them, we’d have been too adrift by January for any manager to keep us up 

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3 minutes ago, redpole said:

I think we have the players to play 433, which will enable us to have for ex Massengo/Nagy-Walsh-Morrell as a midfield 3 and Palmer-Wells-Weimann. He played wide left of front 3 at Chelsea and this formation enables us to use his skill on the pitch with protection of midfield 3 behind him. 

Agree with this,  though unsure about Palmer out left. Was also wondering about 3 CM, Palmer as '10' and the Weimann-Wells as you say- Paterson for Palmer would offer a bit more versatilty too. 

Still think we could do with one more IN CM though. Could do much worse than Williams, Clayton on a free looks interesting too- unless he's had injuries or the like.

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7 minutes ago, Dynamite Red said:

Wrong, not in their first season, it took time for them to adjust hence we battled to stay up.

Expecting Morrell and Walsh accompanied with the likes of Nagy and Massengo to perform consistently at this level is naive and unrealistic I think, very little Championship experience between them and for Morrell and Walsh a much bigger step up from League 1 than people think. 

 

Just now, LondonBristolian said:

All but Smith were pretty much invisible for most of our first season back up. Only Smith and Kodjia kept us competitive and I reckon, without them, we’d have been too adrift by January for any manager to keep us up 

The difference being that almost the whole team were all inexperienced then. Now we are purely talking about 1 position, if they make mistakes, they will quickly know about it from the more experienced players.

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1 minute ago, marcofisher said:

 

The difference being that almost the whole team were all inexperienced then. Now we are purely talking about 1 position, if they make mistakes, they will quickly know about it from the more experienced players.

So who in the proposed midfield 3 most are taking about has this experience?

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with this,  though unsure about Palmer out left. Was also wondering about 3 CM, Palmer as '10' and the Weimann-Wells as you say- Paterson for Palmer would offer a bit more versatilty too. 

Still think we could do with one more IN CM though. Could do much worse than Williams, Clayton on a free looks interesting too- unless he's had injuries or the like.

You could make it a floating front 3 and give them all freedom to move around, which will enable Palmer to float around and find space to create opportunities for others. 

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41 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Didn't seem too hard for Freeman, Pack, Smith, Reid amongst many others from our league 1 squad who weren't midfielders but managed to make the step up with little to no experience in the Championship. 

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27 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

All but Smith were pretty much invisible for most of our first season back up. Only Smith and Kodjia kept us competitive and I reckon, without them, we’d have been too adrift by January for any manager to keep us up 

The big issue for me was Freeman in the hole. It didn’t work. It was too condensed for him in there against top DMs. He ran into so many blind alleys and never learnt to pop it off, move and get it back. He would’ve been so much better on the left centre of Pack and Smith imho.

Pack was ok that seadon, Caught out by pace at times.

Smith was a stalwart until playing injured for too long caught up with him.

Freeman began to contribute when he was played wide in a 442.

Was a funny old season!

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4 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

I am talking about the team in general are more experienced, allowing us to have a younger cohort of central midfielders.

I agree it's a different situation, I think it just shows we badly need some experience and physical midfielders to add to the current choices. Joe Williams maybe one but also someone 6 foot plus to allow the likes of Nagy, Massengo, Walsh and Morrell play and express themselves. 

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I appreciate people want Walsh and Morrell to do well. I do too, but it seems people are almost reliant on these two being in our midfield week in and week out. Both players are completely inexperienced at championship level. Both players had decent seasons at league 1, but this is a step higher. Their opposition are a second quicker, stronger, quicker thinkers etc. I hope they get their opportunity and take it. However, I would be a little concerned at the start of the season, if we haven’t brought in an experienced head in the middle of the park to bring them along. 
 

Nagy and Massengo are also pretty new to not just championship football, but the English game.

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

The big issue for me was Freeman in the hole. It didn’t work. It was too condensed for him in there against top DMs. He ran into so many blind alleys and never learnt to pop it off, move and get it back. He would’ve been so much better on the left centre of Pack and Smith imho.

Pack was ok that seadon, Caught out by pace at times.

Smith was a stalwart until playing injured for too long caught up with him.

Freeman began to contribute when he was played wide in a 442.

Was a funny old season!

I still think we underused Reid in that first season. Made a couple mistakes but was always good on the ball. 

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11 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Fleck's first season at championship level with Sheffield Utd he won player of the season. So Championship experience might not matter if the player is quality. 

Wasn't Pearson instantly very good for Preston in the championship having never played in it before?

Even korey is an example of a player with limited championship experience and being very good at this level when he went up from league one to championship level with us.

Bradley Dack another. We could probably find many more examples.

Be interested if you could find an example where NONE of the midfield had much experience at Championship level & it had worked, because that is what an approach that tries to go with what we currently have would be.

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19 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Be interested if you could find an example where NONE of the midfield had much experience at Championship level & it had worked, because that is what an approach that tries to go with what we currently have would be.

 

I think one potential factor that Walsh and Morrell have been training (and, in Walsh's case, very occasionally playing) in a Championship level team for a few years. It's quite different to moving up a player being signed from a lower level and playing with and against a completely different quality of player. Similarly Nagy and Massengo have had a season to bed in. 

I do think we need to sign an experienced defensive midfielder with some leadership skills to complement the midfield but, if we do that, I think that will resolve many of the issues.

The striking thing for me at the tail end of the season is Vyner came in after the restart and, whilst not being outstanding, certainly didn't look out of place as a Championship level player. I'd see Walsh, Moore, Morrell, O'Leary and arguably Semenyo as higher rated than Vyner in terms of potential so I think that bodes well. Of course we don't know what will happen and it may be not all adjust but I think there are examples. Sheffield United immediately became competitive in the Championship when most of their squad stepped up three years ago, and in the Premier League last season, and Chelsea successfully blooded a lot of youngsters last year.

I'm not saying it isn't a risk, and it might not work, but I certainly don't think it is an unprecedented gamble or one that is guaranteed to end in failure. 

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On 15/08/2020 at 12:32, Davefevs said:

I dunno.  What I believe is that LJ is too keen to “big-up” new signings of this type (different to signing Kalas or Weimann).  We did the same with Engvall and Eliasson.  It raises fans expectations but may also lead the player to think they’ve already made it here.

At least 48 games this season, at least 13 midweek league games plus cup, means a lot of Sat/Tues - Sat/Tues weeks.  That will require rotation / rest.  I think Szmodics will get minutes either up top or as the more attack minded CM (assuming he’s not sold / loaned).  We will get injuries and suspensions too.  It’s gonna be about finding the balance between playing players in form and not flogging them ala Pack in 17/18.

I’ve just started writing a piece on our loan approach.  In some cases I think we give them one loan too many.

Your last paragraph, I believe is absolutely correct.

The last loan season would be better spent picking up half a dozen starts and a fair share of subs used in City's first team.

It's called feeding youngsters into the team. How Dicks did it along with so many others.

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On 16/08/2020 at 15:15, Red white and red said:

I appreciate people want Walsh and Morrell to do well. I do too, but it seems people are almost reliant on these two being in our midfield week in and week out. Both players are completely inexperienced at championship level. Both players had decent seasons at league 1, but this is a step higher. Their opposition are a second quicker, stronger, quicker thinkers etc. I hope they get their opportunity and take it. However, I would be a little concerned at the start of the season, if we haven’t brought in an experienced head in the middle of the park to bring them along. 
 

Nagy and Massengo are also pretty new to not just championship football, but the English game.

Good post. I think there is somewhat of an obsession amongst some fans to play the younger players at every opportunity. Whilst nobody wants to see their pathways blocked we have to be realistic - as you said neither of Morrell or Walsh have any real Championship experience under their belts. Like with the manager we would be taking a big gamble. Its brilliant if it all works but we start losing a few with a rookie manager in charge and a team of younger players you could easily be staring down the barrel early on in the season. For me we desperately need an older head in that central midfield area IMO. 

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19 minutes ago, bris red said:

Good post. I think there is somewhat of an obsession amongst some fans to play the younger players at every opportunity. Whilst nobody wants to see their pathways blocked we have to be realistic - as you said neither of Morrell or Walsh have any real Championship experience under their belts. Like with the manager we would be taking a big gamble. Its brilliant if it all works but we start losing a few with a rookie manager in charge and a team of younger players you could easily be staring down the barrel early on in the season. For me we desperately need an older head in that central midfield area IMO. 

My view is not to play the youngsters at every opportunity, but to at least give them an opportunity to sink or swim earlier, and decide earlier whether that was either:

  • too early and need more nurturing maybe a loan would help
  • bang on and keep them around (Leeds blooded Phillips, Shackleton and Clarke with no loan, as did we with Kelly
  • a good indication that they aren’t gonna make it (that might be identified during a loan too)
  • etc

There will always be the argument that Bobby Reid developed late. Indeed he did, but was Connor Lemoneigh-Evans (23) ever gonna justify a career at City - he has just been sold / released having had a season at National League.  In the equivalent season that Bobby Reid turned 23, he was racking up 28 Championship appearances (16 starts 12 subs).  How late is CLE gonna develop ??‍♂️

That’s a massive difference...and suggests we’ve been very generous with Connor’s development.  I want to see us be a bit more clinical in this area.

Perhaps this is the start, Rory Holden being sold / released to Walsall aged 22 (23 this Sunday) too.

The sensible thing is to ensure there is a sell-on if you are moving on whilst in contract.

Robbie Cundy (23) is next on my hit list....just gone to Cambridge (Lg2) on loan.  I’ll be amazed if he doesn’t follow the same fate as CLE and RH.  It’s surprising how some of these ages sneak up on you:

  • Adelakun (24)
  • J.Smith (23) - at least he’s training with the first team squad

My obsession is with ensuring there is a pathway, it’s then up to the youngsters to prove it.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

My view is not to play the youngsters at every opportunity, but to at least give them an opportunity to sink or swim earlier, and decide earlier whether that was either:

  • too early and need more nurturing maybe a loan would help
  • bang on and keep them around (Leeds blooded Phillips, Shackleton and Clarke with no loan, as did we with Kelly
  • a good indication that they aren’t gonna make it (that might be identified during a loan too)
  • etc

There will always be the argument that Bobby Reid developed late. Indeed he did, but was Connor Lemoneigh-Evans (23) ever gonna justify a career at City - he has just been sold / released having had a season at National League.  In the equivalent season that Bobby Reid turned 23, he was racking up 28 Championship appearances (16 starts 12 subs).  How late is CLE gonna develop ??‍♂️

That’s a massive difference...and suggests we’ve been very generous with Connor’s development.  I want to see us be a bit more clinical in this area.

Perhaps this is the start, Rory Holden being sold / released to Walsall aged 22 (23 this Sunday) too.

The sensible thing is to ensure there is a sell-on if you are moving on whilst in contract.

Robbie Cundy (23) is next on my hit list....just gone to Cambridge (Lg2) on loan.  I’ll be amazed if he doesn’t follow the same fate as CLE and RH.  It’s surprising how some of these ages sneak up on you:

  • Adelakun (24)
  • J.Smith (23) - at least he’s training with the first team squad

My obsession is with ensuring there is a pathway, it’s then up to the youngsters to prove it.

Wow, I didn't realise Jonny Smith was 23. I had him down as a likely first team player, and possible replacement for Eliasson but he's only 18 months behind in terms of age. He really has to be involved this season if he's going to make it here.

I think we've wasted money on some expensive players (perms/loans) when in reality, they weren't that much better than what we've had at the club already in terms of some of the "youngsters" - Taylor Moore is a good example. We're too scared to chuck them in. Hopefully we'll see a lot more of the likes of Morrell, Smith, Moore and Walsh etc this season.

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11 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Wow, I didn't realise Jonny Smith was 23. I had him down as a likely first team player, and possible replacement for Eliasson but he's only 18 months behind in terms of age. He really has to be involved this season if he's going to make it here.

I think we've wasted money on some expensive players (perms/loans) when in reality, they weren't that much better than what we've had at the club already in terms of some of the "youngsters" - Taylor Moore is a good example. We're too scared to chuck them in. Hopefully we'll see a lot more of the likes of Morrell, Smith, Moore and Walsh etc this season.

Better teams seem to throw in the ‘youngsters’ as they have good experienced players to support them. We need to have more faith in our senior players that they can do a similar job. 
I’d rather see our youngsters given a chance than bringing in even younger players from the likes of Chelsea etc. It must be galling for a 23 year old at our club to be usurped by an 18 year old coming in on loan and taking a position in the 1st team that you have worked hard towards for the last 3 years or more. 

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On 16/08/2020 at 13:30, The Bard said:

I disagree.  It's a step up but it isn't huge. Particularly with some experience and having proved yourself at the level below.  It's the next challenge 

Can’t agree fella - the gap is massive.

I think we all sometimes forget that the Championship is the 5th biggest league in Europe.

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Reading  through this,,i understand players develop at different rates, but if they are good young players, they ought to have already made a big impression by the time they are 23,, and also, its taken taylor moore 3 years or so of loans to hopefully come in and stake a claim,, thats a long time to wait when he only signed a 3/4 year contract when he came in. By the time him walsh,  elliasson are really ready they are running out of contract and looking to move on.

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2 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

Can’t agree fella - the gap is massive.

I think we all sometimes forget that the Championship is the 5th biggest league in Europe.

Heard this many times but I'm not entirely sure where it came from or what it is based upon.

Attendances possibly ? But it certainly aint on quality.

 

 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

Reading  through this,,i understand players develop at different rates, but if they are good young players, they ought to have already made a big impression by the time they are 23,, and also, its taken taylor moore 3 years or so of loans to hopefully come in and stake a claim,, thats a long time to wait when he only signed a 3/4 year contract when he came in. By the time him walsh,  elliasson are really ready they are running out of contract and looking to move on.

I think Taylor Moore was ready - but LJ made the decision to loan him out to Blackpool whilst Benkovic came in on loan from Leicester. Who then hardly played. All a bit puzzling. 

Moore certainly suffered from the "one loan too many" syndrome that was suggested by (I think) @Davefevs 

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