A long pause to think and observe - why this could be a very shrewd move by the club

[Sandhurst Red]

I've kept quiet over the last 6 weeks - looking on from afar whilst all unfolded and now feel able to comment on the situation. Like lots of posters on here, many have yet to express their opinion and the mass outcry does not necessarily reflect all of the fan base.

At first, like many I was appalled with what I was seeing, and the silence was deafening. It was a real concern to what was being done to a club that is a large part of my life, like many other who support it. 

Since then, my stance has softened and changed. The more I read and speak to people in the game - this could turn out to be a very shrewd move by the club.

The question marks over Dean Holden still remain. The elongated process to reach his appointment must be reviewed as a club, and key individuals in the club hierarchy must question their role in that process and the lack of communication throughout. I understand we have no right as fans, but it smacks of ignorance to feel that a football club can operate with customers, opposed to fans - irrespective of the changing commercial model that elite sports has become.

Holden may well have a vision. He may well have brilliant expertise and abilities. He appears to have the support of the players. What he does lack is the experience that the board stated was critical for the next phase of the clubs history and desired rise. That failure is not on Holden, more on the communicators. (Steve Lansdown in particular needs to be held to account for this and apologise to Holden for causing the murky undertones that we have seen in the fan base of late).

What has I think been overlooked is the new set-up and vision. Although Hughton was the people's choice, other clubs have seemingly passed on him recently too. This could be for a number of reasons, and though I am not doubting his credentials, there must be something that is putting potential suitors off appointing him. For anyone that has read the Bielsa book and when he was appointed at Leeds, it transpires that at least 2 managers that Leeds spoke with could barely name any players and felt their reputation was enough. Look at the journeymen managers like Mark Hughes etc. who have got jobs time and time again based on this. I am not saying Hughton was like that, but an interview is critical and perhaps he left the board feeling flat.

The boldest step taken however by the club, is the taking of not one, but two very well respected coaches from the English F.A Set-up. Speaking with people I know working in the game, both coaches come very highly recommended. Southgate was very saddened by their departures and recognises all they have both individually achieved. Their reputation goes beyond the English set-up with other coaches from national set-ups reviewing what we have done with the under-19s and under-20s and trying to emulate it. That we have managed to persuade both to leave their roles is quite something, and to me states that we really believe in a youth set-up for the future. If Holden were to not achieve what he sets out, then both coaches would be retained and a new head coach implemented. Who that could be, and their pedigree will be debated should that happen, but Downing and Simpson will be here for the long-term with the set-up we are going towards.

The fact that Holden is on a 12 month contract does indeed say a lot. The current financial climate will have dictated some of that, but it also means that the model is where the vision is, and head coach is interchangeable to fulfill that vision. It may take a bit longer, but sustainability in football with youth investment is critical. What football clubs are seeing behind the scenes is painful - and it is no exaggeration that over 30 clubs across the Championship, League One and League Two are fighting for their very survival. This has been on the cards for some time, COVID has merely brought that forward.

Last and by no means least - how we are operating as a football club off the field is the bit which definitely has cause for concern. The communication strategy (as someone who works in marketing and comms) has been atrocious. There are so many aspects that I could and would love to critique. It has been painful to see how this whole situation has been handled, and sadly that goes back for over 2 years since the club restructured itself internally. For those that have seen season 2 of Sunderland til I die', I can't help but see Ashton in a similar vein to Charlie Methven. His whole approach is corporate and egotistical. The way the communication has been handled is farcical, and if this vision goes horribly wrong, then Ashton will have to fall on his sword. He and Lansdown had the final say on that set-up and vision, so must take accountability for what plays out. We may not like it, we may wish to contest and feel it will be wrong - but we simply don't know that to be the case. It is a gamble, and slightly unorthodox. 

That said, if this does go well - then praise should also be forthcoming. The vision and fulfillment of it could be inspired and as I have pondered this post for some time, I feel much more optimistic about the future on the field and with the playing set-up at all levels, and how that will develop and evolve. Large questions remain with the off the field approach, but I concede the pressures the club is facing through the crisis that football is going through.

Either way, now is the time to regroup as a fanbase. Those that follow and support need to unite, and if you have lost that love and buzz - by all means take some time away and come back when appropriate. This is a new chapter for the club, but on reflection and consultation with experienced personnel in the game that know far more than I do, I genuinely feel excited about what we are doing, despite the risks outlined. 
 

[Kibs]

Good post, I think this sums up very much how I feel about it all too. 
 

I think it was just a relief to get it sorted, and the interviews by Holden and his assistants have been positive for sure.

[chinapig]

Two thoughts:

1. Somehow I find it hard to believe Ashton ever questions himself. Judging by his Twentyman interview he doesn't respond well to anybody daring to question him either. Dean may have to be careful with the straight talking.

2. Most organisations like to talk about their 'vision' but it tends to be content free platitudes. If Dean does have a clear vision as claimed perhaps we could be told what it is?

[Red Skin]

I see the appointments of these coaches as very positive.  To develop our own talent it's essential.  

I'm very accepting of the situation, now.

I'm looking beyond Holden's appointment (not writing him off though) and the long-term direction of the club I still feel we need a respected DoF that defines and protects the footballing identity of the club that all coaching staff align to.  Most importantly, this must be someone that is empowered to stand up to someone like MA whose influence and power I'm becoming increasingly concerned about not only from what I've heard on here and in links shared, but also from snippets I've heard from elsewhere. 

Overall, recognition of getting top coaches on board is another step forward by SL.   A DoF next after the next sacking please?

(And even then, I'll probably need to be happy with the creation of the role at that point.  No doubt they give it to some knob like Pulis first time round )

[Davefevs]

29 minutes ago, Kibs said:

Good post, I think this sums up very much how I feel about it all too. 
 

I think it was just a relief to get it sorted, and the interviews by Holden and his assistants have been positive for sure.

@Sandhurst Red me too...although I got on board the “Holden train” quite early....so was already fine by the time he was appointed.

16 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

I see the appointments of these coaches as very positive.  To develop our own talent it's essential.  

I'm very accepting of the situation, now.

I'm looking beyond Holden's appointment (not writing him off though) and the long-term direction of the club I still feel we need a respected DoF that defines and protects the footballing identity of the club that all coaching staff align to.  Most importantly, this must be someone that is empowered to stand up to someone like MA whose influence and power I'm becoming increasingly concerned about not only from what I've heard on here and in links shared, but also from snippets I've heard from elsewhere. 

Overall, recognition of getting top coaches on board is another step forward by SL.   A DoF next after the next sacking please?

(And even then, I'll probably need to be happy with the creation of the role at that point.  No doubt they give it to some knob like Pulis first time round )

Agree, plus I think we might still buy younger players too, maybe those who’ve been let go by Prem clubs with a point to prove. 

[bristolcitysweden]

Hopefully Holden will come good and perhaps thank's to his assistans if so. The no clue under Johnson spills over on Holden. In most sports you have possession and train in a pattern of what is going to happen. Doing, this and this ending up with that. Runs starting before you even know the earlier steps will work this time. But not Bristol City F.C. Endless passing between the back four and then a pointless long ball no one seems to be aware of. So incredibly poor and hard to understand. What are they actually doing in training. A kindergarten with spoiled children. In despair I know read the players are "fit and physical" when they in all truth are lazy, unfit, still standing primadonnas. What they need is to be flogged, flogged and then flogged again.    

[Vespa Red]

Good post.  There would be no reason, commercially or reputationally, to back a losing horse.  So some element of rigorous due diligence must have taken place.  

However, the communication strategy has been an utter car crash.  And I know that I'm nothing more than a common season ticket holder, and there are 14,000 more where I've come from, but I would have thought that some form of update at some point in the process would have been courteous.  

[Red Skin]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Sandhurst Red me too...although I got on board the “Holden train” quite early....so was already fine by the time he was appointed.

Agree, plus I think we might still buy younger players too, maybe those who’ve been let go by Prem clubs with a point to prove. 

Definitely.  We seemed to being doing that with players like Bakinson, who have obviously been coached well at Luton (not Prem I know), then our current strategy was to send them out for loans.  Sure they need 'real' football, but they need high level coaching too and will they get that at lower league clubs?

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Sandhurst Red said:

I've kept quiet over the last 6 weeks - looking on from afar whilst all unfolded and now feel able to comment on the situation. Like lots of posters on here, many have yet to express their opinion and the mass outcry does not necessarily reflect all of the fan base.

At first, like many I was appalled with what I was seeing, and the silence was deafening. It was a real concern to what was being done to a club that is a large part of my life, like many other who support it. 

Since then, my stance has softened and changed. The more I read and speak to people in the game - this could turn out to be a very shrewd move by the club.

The question marks over Dean Holden still remain. The elongated process to reach his appointment must be reviewed as a club, and key individuals in the club hierarchy must question their role in that process and the lack of communication throughout. I understand we have no right as fans, but it smacks of ignorance to feel that a football club can operate with customers, opposed to fans - irrespective of the changing commercial model that elite sports has become.

Holden may well have a vision. He may well have brilliant expertise and abilities. He appears to have the support of the players. What he does lack is the experience that the board stated was critical for the next phase of the clubs history and desired rise. That failure is not on Holden, more on the communicators. (Steve Lansdown in particular needs to be held to account for this and apologise to Holden for causing the murky undertones that we have seen in the fan base of late).

What has I think been overlooked is the new set-up and vision. Although Hughton was the people's choice, other clubs have seemingly passed on him recently too. This could be for a number of reasons, and though I am not doubting his credentials, there must be something that is putting potential suitors off appointing him. For anyone that has read the Bielsa book and when he was appointed at Leeds, it transpires that at least 2 managers that Leeds spoke with could barely name any players and felt their reputation was enough. Look at the journeymen managers like Mark Hughes etc. who have got jobs time and time again based on this. I am not saying Hughton was like that, but an interview is critical and perhaps he left the board feeling flat.

The boldest step taken however by the club, is the taking of not one, but two very well respected coaches from the English F.A Set-up. Speaking with people I know working in the game, both coaches come very highly recommended. Southgate was very saddened by their departures and recognises all they have both individually achieved. Their reputation goes beyond the English set-up with other coaches from national set-ups reviewing what we have done with the under-19s and under-20s and trying to emulate it. That we have managed to persuade both to leave their roles is quite something, and to me states that we really believe in a youth set-up for the future. If Holden were to not achieve what he sets out, then both coaches would be retained and a new head coach implemented. Who that could be, and their pedigree will be debated should that happen, but Downing and Simpson will be here for the long-term with the set-up we are going towards.

The fact that Holden is on a 12 month contract does indeed say a lot. The current financial climate will have dictated some of that, but it also means that the model is where the vision is, and head coach is interchangeable to fulfill that vision. It may take a bit longer, but sustainability in football with youth investment is critical. What football clubs are seeing behind the scenes is painful - and it is no exaggeration that over 30 clubs across the Championship, League One and League Two are fighting for their very survival. This has been on the cards for some time, COVID has merely brought that forward.

Last and by no means least - how we are operating as a football club off the field is the bit which definitely has cause for concern. The communication strategy (as someone who works in marketing and comms) has been atrocious. There are so many aspects that I could and would love to critique. It has been painful to see how this whole situation has been handled, and sadly that goes back for over 2 years since the club restructured itself internally. For those that have seen season 2 of Sunderland til I die', I can't help but see Ashton in a similar vein to Charlie Methven. His whole approach is corporate and egotistical. The way the communication has been handled is farcical, and if this vision goes horribly wrong, then Ashton will have to fall on his sword. He and Lansdown had the final say on that set-up and vision, so must take accountability for what plays out. We may not like it, we may wish to contest and feel it will be wrong - but we simply don't know that to be the case. It is a gamble, and slightly unorthodox. 

That said, if this does go well - then praise should also be forthcoming. The vision and fulfillment of it could be inspired and as I have pondered this post for some time, I feel much more optimistic about the future on the field and with the playing set-up at all levels, and how that will develop and evolve. Large questions remain with the off the field approach, but I concede the pressures the club is facing through the crisis that football is going through.

Either way, now is the time to regroup as a fanbase. Those that follow and support need to unite, and if you have lost that love and buzz - by all means take some time away and come back when appropriate. This is a new chapter for the club, but on reflection and consultation with experienced personnel in the game that know far more than I do, I genuinely feel excited about what we are doing, despite the risks outlined. 
 

Nicely put...and like you, I haven't commented at all on the pros and cons of this appointment and everything that has surrounded it.

I agree with pretty much everything in your op.

I've always thought that how we have set up the Club...mainly the fast tracking of youth, and how and the type we sign and sell would put off any 'traditional' Coach or manager...as most want to start afresh, have a clear out and bring in their own team.

Some joked in the past that JM would be the next coach as that's how it looked we were setting up...now we find the other Assistant promoted instead...so not far off.

Perhaps one of the two new coaches will be the next in line? 

I agree totally as to what you say about MA....and imo, he's in an even stronger position now, as LJ had the bond with SL that DH probably doesn't. It...imo, is MA's decision to install DH....as it will give him greater control and advance knowledge.

For what it's worth...whether true or not, it was alleged that MA voted to dismiss LJ twice before LJ was finally released and SL stopped it.

I also have a gut feeling Clubs have a better idea than has been published, as to how the Covid restrictions will pan out in the future and they are planning for the worse. As in, it'll be the same this time next year. And like any business, they will continue promoting themselves as if there isn't a problem to get investment and money on board.

Once Furlough payments stop, people aren't given their jobs back, businesses close and we go into a massive recession we will see the real situation...not the grey bale out situation we are in now. This will greatly effect clubs like any other business.

Like you say...it could be a very shrewd move.

[Red Skin]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I've always thought that how we have set up the Club...mainly the fast tracking of youth, and how and the type we sign and sell would put off any 'traditional' Coach or manager...as most want to start afresh, have a clear out and bring in their own team.

Personally, I think we are moving to a better model albeit in a fumbling way.

The club cannot become too reliant on an individual manager to achieve success.  Regardless of whether they leave because they are successful or they leave because they fail, it means costly rebuild each time. 

We need succession planning for coaches in the same way we do for players.  Ideally, that may be within (like the Liverpool boot room) or we recruit someone that fits our model of how we play that a DoF has set out. 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Personally, I think we are moving to a better model albeit in a fumbling way.

The club cannot become too reliant on an individual manager to achieve success.  Regardless of whether they leave because they are successful or they leave because they fail, it means costly rebuild each time. 

We need succession planning for coaches in the same way we do for players.  Ideally, that may be within (like the Liverpool boot room) or we recruit someone that fits our model of how we play that a DoF has set out. 

Good way of looking at it.

[Phileas Fogg]

Maybe the move to get rid of McAllister will be shrewd. One big concern I have with Holden is the players liking him but not respecting him as an authority figure. Little things like calling him ‘Deano’.

The Cotterill interview on Korey Smith is interesting - he talks about needing a divide between himself and the players and did little things to essentially get on their nerves with the longer term aim of building up their togetherness.

Maybe the move to bring in two seasoned coaches and replace a very familiar assistant is to combat this. Both are used to working with high profile young players who may have ego issues. Both are straight talking and won’t take any nonsense. This could be a clever move.

[CliftonCliff]

2 hours ago, chinapig said:

Two thoughts:

1. Somehow I find it hard to believe Ashton ever questions himself. Judging by his Twentyman interview he doesn't respond well to anybody daring to question him either. Dean may have to be careful with the straight talking.

2. Most organisations like to talk about their 'vision' but it tends to be content free platitudes. If Dean does have a clear vision as claimed perhaps we could be told what it is?

I think your intuition about Ashton is probably spot on. I wrote what was effectively an expanded version of your comment in a thread started by Septic Peg a few days ago, under the heading “Scapegoating “. Don’t know how you bump it into this reply, but it’s easy enough to find if anyone’s interested enough to bother.

In essence, what I was saying was that his behaviour bears all the hallmarks of a narcissistic personality, with all that implies. These people can be intelligent and high achievers, but they are totally self-focused and can also be very destructive. 

It seems obvious to me that the grossly dysfunctional dynamics of the relationships between the three key figures in charge of the club should be a cause for huge concern. SL’s vital importance as a benefactor is clearly undeniable, but it comes at a cost. Stories about his tendency to be controlling and interfering over the years (albeit from a distance these days) seem credible and are too persistent to be entirely without substance. Following in the wake of surely one of the least visible football club chairman of all time in Keith Dawe, we have SL’s representative on Earth, the ineffectual (and I think probably quite vulnerable) JL, who an operator like MA could, and most likely does, run rings around.

It’s a potentially toxic mix of a rich, powerful man, his very limited son and puppet chairman, and a capable but ambitious, scheming and deeply untrustworthy CEO. Recognising all that makes it easier to make sense of the fiasco that we’ve witnessed over the last five or six weeks. The irony is that they may have ended up, almost more by luck than judgement, producing an outcome that might just work - or at least not be a complete disaster. I certainly bloody hope so, anyway.

[Bat Fastard]

8 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

I think your intuition about Ashton is probably spot on. I wrote what was effectively an expanded version of your comment in a thread started by Septic Peg a few days ago, under the heading “Scapegoating “. Don’t know how you bump it into this reply, but it’s easy enough to find if anyone’s interested enough to bother.

In essence, what I was saying was that his behaviour bears all the hallmarks of a narcissistic personality, with all that implies. These people can be intelligent and high achievers, but they are totally self-focused and can also be very destructive. 

It seems obvious to me that the grossly dysfunctional dynamics of the relationships between the three key figures in charge of the club should be a cause for huge concern. SL’s vital importance as a benefactor is clearly undeniable, but it comes at a cost. Stories about his tendency to be controlling and interfering over the years (albeit from a distance these days) seem credible and are too persistent to be entirely without substance. Following in the wake of surely one of the least visible football club chairman of all time in Keith Dawe, we have SL’s representative on Earth, the ineffectual (and I think probably quite vulnerable) JL, who an operator like MA could, and most likely does, run rings around.

It’s a potentially toxic mix of a rich, powerful man, his very limited son and puppet chairman, and a capable but ambitious, scheming and deeply untrustworthy CEO. Recognising all that makes it easier to make sense of the fiasco that we’ve witnessed over the last five or six weeks. The irony is that they may have ended up, almost more by luck than judgement, producing an outcome that might just work - or at least not be a complete disaster. I certainly bloody hope so, anyway.

I don't see Ashton in the same way at all. He absolutely has to be brazen and self confident or he couldn't hold down a job as CEO of Bristol City.  So many people seem to produce theories about his personality and type of character and however nasty and personal the view, it seems to be well accepted until it is pumped out by other posters as it it were based on fact.  The only solid evidence that we have is that the club appears to be reasonably well run as an operation. Other clubs give glowing reports of how we transact our transfer business, Mark Ashton must be well regarded by his fellow football executives to be voted into office within the EFL.  But the most compelling evidence in his favour is that Steve Lansdown clearly rates his ability and has entrusted the business education of his son to him. Sorry to knock all the knockers but there is little real evidence to back up the negative views.  There have clearly been pressures brought about by the current "once in a lifetime" event of Covid and this may well be causing difficulties that cannot sensibly be discussed with the mob because all it would do is stir up further negativity.  I think Ashton Gate would benefit from keeping Mark Ashton in post and that we would be diminished if he left. Be careful what you wish for!!

[Harry R]

Entrusted the business education of his son to him?

JL is presumably MA's boss.

[CliftonCliff]

31 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I don't see Ashton in the same way at all. He absolutely has to be brazen and self confident or he couldn't hold down a job as CEO of Bristol City.  So many people seem to produce theories about his personality and type of character and however nasty and personal the view, it seems to be well accepted until it is pumped out by other posters as it it were based on fact.  The only solid evidence that we have is that the club appears to be reasonably well run as an operation. Other clubs give glowing reports of how we transact our transfer business, Mark Ashton must be well regarded by his fellow football executives to be voted into office within the EFL.  But the most compelling evidence in his favour is that Steve Lansdown clearly rates his ability and has entrusted the business education of his son to him. Sorry to knock all the knockers but there is little real evidence to back up the negative views.  There have clearly been pressures brought about by the current "once in a lifetime" event of Covid and this may well be causing difficulties that cannot sensibly be discussed with the mob because all it would do is stir up further negativity.  I think Ashton Gate would benefit from keeping Mark Ashton in post and that we would be diminished if he left. Be careful what you wish for!!

Actually, it may surprise you to learn that I don’t necessarily disagree with most of that. I have made it clear in everything I’ve said that MA is a highly capable person. And for the record, nowhere have I said that I want him out of the club. I can’t - and don’t - speak for others. Some people may, as you imply, be on a witch hunt, which I’m not. (I don’t know about their motives, you’d have to ask them.)

You make the case as though to suggest that your perception of MA and mine are incompatible. They’re not. Both views could be held to be correct, without being contradictory to one another. If it seems otherwise to you, then you simply haven’t understood what I’ve written, or perhaps it would be more polite to say I haven’t made myself clear - though to be honest, I don’t see how I could have made it any plainer.

The one thing I would take issue with is the assertion that the club is well run. If you think what we’ve witnessed over the over the last six weeks is evidence of a well managed organisation, then we are certainly a long way apart on that. I think there are clear indications of tensions between the three most powerful men in the hierarchy that could quite easily unravel in a destructive manner. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.

 

 

[Bat Fastard]

20 minutes ago, Harry R said:

Entrusted the business education of his son to him?

JL is presumably MA's boss.

I should imagine that JL has learned a great deal from MA. Do you doubt it?

[Harry R]

No idea, but quite possibly.

My point is that JL is Chairman and in his late 30s. He's not some 19 year old.

[Bat Fastard]

5 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Actually, it may surprise you to learn that I don’t necessarily disagree with most of that. I have made it clear in everything I’ve said that MA is a highly capable person. And for the record, nowhere have I said that I want him out of the club. I can’t - and don’t - speak for others. Some people may, as you imply, be on a witch hunt, which I’m not. (I don’t know about their motives, you’d have to ask them.)

You make the case as though to suggest that your perception of MA and mine are incompatible. They’re not. Both views could be held to be correct, without being contradictory to one another. If it seems otherwise to you, then you simply haven’t understood what I’ve written, or perhaps it would be more polite to say I haven’t made myself clear - though to be honest, I don’t see how I could have made it any plainer.

The one thing I would take issue with is the assertion that the club is well run. If you think what we’ve witnessed over the over the last six weeks is evidence of a well managed organisation, then we are certainly a long way apart on that. I think there are clear indications of tensions between the three most powerful men in the hierarchy that could quite easily unravel in a destructive manner. Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that.

 

 

The assertion that the club is not well run may need a bit of examination. It should be no problem if the three leaders have differing shades of opinion as long as they can have reasoned argument and debate and come to a conclusion that they can all accept.  If, as some seem to believe, the length of time taken to appoint Lee's replacement betokens some kind of problem with the decision making process, then they simply believe that the club did not follow a robust selection process. We have no idea who they interviewed and what happened in those interviews. Were any of the holdups Covid related? Many seem to have taken for granted that the time taken and the person chosen indicates a failure in management. I feel that this cannot be based on knowledge or fact and may well indicate management strength and objectivity, underlined by the fact that the DH selection was reinforced by the capture of two excellent and experienced coaches.  There may well have been time taken to ascertain the best people to fill these two vital positions.  I would prefer to err on the side of generosity and say that they have done pretty well - how well? We shall have to wait and see.

[Bat Fastard]

9 minutes ago, Harry R said:

No idea, but quite possibly.

My point is that JL is Chairman and in his late 30s. He's not some 19 year old.

MA has been in the professional game for all his working life. Maybe he was not the greatest player and I have no idea of his professional qualifications as an executive, but he is clearly enormously experienced and I feel sure that SL will expect his son to pick up a great deal of know how and practical nous from MA.

[tunnie12345]

After a bit of reflection time, I am coming to terms with the appointment now and feel slightly more positive than I did. The odd thing is not one person has anything against Holden and most of the anger is directed at the owners for poor communication. I do feel they should come out and make a statement apologising not only to the fans but to Holden for making so much of a mess of the situation.
 

I see his appointment similar to my position at the moment.  Recently made redundant from a finance job. I have now got myself a job working nights in a supermarket. Am I happy about it? Absolutely not, however it’s the sensible decision for me and my family. I will do this for a year or so and then see where we are in terms of Covid and the economy etc. I totally get that the club should have communicated this better and many fans would be much more understanding if they had done.

Holdens life story is heartbreaking. He must have some incredible mental strength after all he has been through which can only be a positive for his character. He himself does not deserve any of us to turn our backs on him now. By all means support the team and protest against the running of the club. However no good can come from not giving him a fair shot. If he can come in and play entertaining, attacking football, then we are already in a better position than last year. I’ll reserve judgement for after 10 games.

 

COYR
 

 

[Bat Fastard]

5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep, the Ashton opinion from some in recent weeks is bizarre and just seems to be down to the way he talks, which does not matter. A few interviews a season. Makes no difference to me.

It seems to have become a fact on here that Ashton decides who we sign. Well of course he does as he is in charge. But people seem to make out like the head coach does not get a say.

A key thing that LJ was praised for by Lansdown whilst he was at the club and after he had been sacked is how he helped change the recruitment policy.

I'm pretty sure LJ would not have suggested changing it to Ashton signs the players for him with LJ having no input. That would be a crazy move by LJ as that would mean he gets players he might not want.

MA has said that the head coach has the last word. I doubt if every player wanted by a head coach could by guaranteed to be brought into the club however, because negotiations have to take place and the individual situation of the player and his family are quite likely to have an important bearing. Of course the wages offered and accepted have to be within budget and not likely to cause issues with others in the squad. I think it very likely that the head coach, MA, SL and JL will be in continual and regular discussions about all transfer matters.  Many fans will interpret this in unhelpful ways, often because of their views on the merits or demerits of the individuals concerned. They are probably just normal professionals going through a fairly collegiate process in my humble opinion.

[Bat Fastard]

9 minutes ago, tunnie12345 said:

After a bit of reflection time, I am coming to terms with the appointment now and feel slightly more positive than I did. The odd thing is not one person has anything against Holden and most of the anger is directed at the owners for poor communication. I do feel they should come out and make a statement apologising not only to the fans but to Holden for making so much of a mess of the situation.
 

I see his appointment similar to my position at the moment.  Recently made redundant from a finance job. I have now got myself a job working nights in a supermarket. Am I happy about it? Absolutely not, however it’s the sensible decision for me and my family. I will do this for a year or so and then see where we are in terms of Covid and the economy etc. I totally get that the club should have communicated this better and many fans would be much more understanding if they had done.

Holdens life story is heartbreaking. He must have some incredible mental strength after all he has been through which can only be a positive for his character. He himself does not deserve any of us to turn our backs on him now. By all means support the team and protest against the running of the club. However no good can come from not giving him a fair shot. If he can come in and play entertaining, attacking football, then we are already in a better position than last year. I’ll reserve judgement for after 10 games.

 

COYR
 

 

I totally agree with you about Dean Holden. Tragedy can also build character and he deserves a really fair crack at the job. Any manager/head coach of City will have my support.

The problem with providing a running commentary for impatient fans if that it can fan the flames of conjecture and can also lead to the kind of initial reaction that we saw when DH was appointed.  I would prefer it if the mob gave the executives the time and elbow room to do their jobs and try to stem their natural negative tendencies until they see how it all works out. Once the mob starts an outcry, no amount of truth or information will quell them. Look at how they managed to oust Lee Johnson.

[Bat Fastard]

23 minutes ago, tunnie12345 said:

After a bit of reflection time, I am coming to terms with the appointment now and feel slightly more positive than I did. The odd thing is not one person has anything against Holden and most of the anger is directed at the owners for poor communication. I do feel they should come out and make a statement apologising not only to the fans but to Holden for making so much of a mess of the situation.
 

I see his appointment similar to my position at the moment.  Recently made redundant from a finance job. I have now got myself a job working nights in a supermarket. Am I happy about it? Absolutely not, however it’s the sensible decision for me and my family. I will do this for a year or so and then see where we are in terms of Covid and the economy etc. I totally get that the club should have communicated this better and many fans would be much more understanding if they had done.

Holdens life story is heartbreaking. He must have some incredible mental strength after all he has been through which can only be a positive for his character. He himself does not deserve any of us to turn our backs on him now. By all means support the team and protest against the running of the club. However no good can come from not giving him a fair shot. If he can come in and play entertaining, attacking football, then we are already in a better position than last year. I’ll reserve judgement for after 10 games.

 

COYR
 

 

By the way, sorry that I forgot to mention your situation. I hope that everything works out well for you and that you find what you are looking for in life. All best wishes to you and your family.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Yep, the Ashton opinion from some in recent weeks is bizarre and just seems to be down to the way he talks, which does not matter. A few interviews a season. Makes no difference to me.

It seems to have become a fact on here that Ashton decides who we sign. Well of course he does as he is in charge. But people seem to make out like the head coach does not get a say.

A key thing that LJ was praised for by Lansdown whilst he was at the club and after he had been sacked is how he helped change the recruitment policy.

I'm pretty sure LJ would not have suggested changing it to Ashton signs the players for him with LJ having no input. That would be a crazy move by LJ as that would mean he gets players he might not want.

Never, ever has been about the way he talks for me....I actually expect him to talk like a CEO.

Re recruitment we have to see the players we see come in and go out and judge on that.  Under LJ’s reign I lay blame at both LJ and MA’s feet.  On paper in the last 2 seasons there haven’t been many I couldn’t see the logic with on “paper”, but integration into the playing side has been patchy.  That’s either LJ’s fault or the recruitment teams fact finding / background checks....or both.

Im really intrigued to see how Holden approaches this (supported by Simpson and Downing).

2 hours ago, CliftonCliff said:

I think your intuition about Ashton is probably spot on. I wrote what was effectively an expanded version of your comment in a thread started by Septic Peg a few days ago, under the heading “Scapegoating “. Don’t know how you bump it into this reply, but it’s easy enough to find if anyone’s interested enough to bother.

In essence, what I was saying was that his behaviour bears all the hallmarks of a narcissistic personality, with all that implies. These people can be intelligent and high achievers, but they are totally self-focused and can also be very destructive. 

It seems obvious to me that the grossly dysfunctional dynamics of the relationships between the three key figures in charge of the club should be a cause for huge concern. SL’s vital importance as a benefactor is clearly undeniable, but it comes at a cost. Stories about his tendency to be controlling and interfering over the years (albeit from a distance these days) seem credible and are too persistent to be entirely without substance. Following in the wake of surely one of the least visible football club chairman of all time in Keith Dawe, we have SL’s representative on Earth, the ineffectual (and I think probably quite vulnerable) JL, who an operator like MA could, and most likely does, run rings around.

It’s a potentially toxic mix of a rich, powerful man, his very limited son and puppet chairman, and a capable but ambitious, scheming and deeply untrustworthy CEO. Recognising all that makes it easier to make sense of the fiasco that we’ve witnessed over the last five or six weeks. The irony is that they may have ended up, almost more by luck than judgement, producing an outcome that might just work - or at least not be a complete disaster. I certainly bloody hope so, anyway.

I enjoyed reading that...and the follow-up too.

I also think it is fair to say that although the club is financially well-run, probably operationally slick too, the way the club communicates with its “customers” is not well-run, at best it is inconsistent.  It is slow to communicate, there have been several needs to back-track (suggesting wrong implementation in the first place) and I know social media is a different audience, but it misses the mood massively / regularly.  The triumvirate command of Ashton / Knight / Barton are failing in that respect.  So buts if the business well run, some bits not.

[tunnie12345]

10 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

By the way, sorry that I forgot to mention your situation. I hope that everything works out well for you and that you find what you are looking for in life. All best wishes to you and your family.

Thanks very much, its fine I know I'm lucky to have been able to get another job so quickly regardless of what it is. So many other who lost their jobs can't find anything at the moment so I'm definitely grateful. Also happy to just be doing something after 4 months on furlough. 

 

Thanks again though. 

[Bat Fastard]

@Davefevs I will judge player recruitment on the character of the players as well as ability. Korey Smith and young Wilbraham being examples of strength of purpose and people like Tomlin being a bit hit and miss - wonderful when firing on all cylinders but apt to behave with weakness when the mood is not on them.  If we are to make progress, it is the leaders and drivers in the team who will take us to the next level. Leaving aside Williams, where there are other issues to consider, I am struggling to identify the strong leaders in the current squad and hope that the new team in charge can address this issue.

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, tunnie12345 said:

Thanks very much, its fine I know I'm lucky to have been able to get another job so quickly regardless of what it is. So many other who lost their jobs can't find anything at the moment so I'm definitely grateful. Also happy to just be doing something after 4 months on furlough. 

 

Thanks again though. 

I was always lifted by the (mis)quote from "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid" - Cream and Fastards rise!  I'm sure that you are cream and will do just fine!!

[mozo]

To the point that Downing and Simpson are now long term coaches, whereas Head Coach can be replaced if necessary, I completely understand the argument that this could offer a stability and a focus on the development of young players.

It would, however, limit our search for future head coaches. Any HCs that like their own team around them would be excluded, and you can forget about old style managers.

[Bat Fastard]

7 minutes ago, mozo said:

To the point that Downing and Simpson are now long term coaches, whereas Head Coach can be replaced if necessary, I completely understand the argument that this could offer a stability and a focus on the development of young players.

It would, however, limit our search for future head coaches. Any HCs that like their own team around them would be excluded, and you can forget about old style managers.

It is hard to work out the overall game plan, but DH wanted those two coaches according to MA. The overall cost of managers coming in with their own entourage and paying off the departing team seems to be what we are trying to get away from, with only partial success.  The drive to keep the club as a developer of youth must be right in the long run though and I, for one, applaud the board for sticking to the vision.