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With Watford’s very random appointment I was wondering if anyone would have preferred this sort of appointment over Holden?

There must have been may applicants like him apply for the Head Coach role with us.

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I’m sure we had plenty of these sort of applicants but again and again we are told Dean Holden was the outstanding candidate.. i personally wouldn’t have been against a foreign appointment - i still cannot and will not get over the fact that Mr Holden was genuinely the best choice for the role but there we have it.

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Just now, bris red said:

I’m sure we had plenty of these sort of applicants but again and again we are told Dean Holden was the outstanding candidate.. i personally wouldn’t have been against a foreign appointment - i still cannot and will not get over the fact that Mr Holden was genuinely the best choice for the role but there we have it.

He wasn’t/isn’t. 

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I won’t profess to know much about him so cannot possibly say whether I’d prefer him to Holden, but he’s just won the Israeli league for the second year running & has previously coached a side that has won the Greek cup, so he’s not exactly some chancer sticking in a spurious application, is he?

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6 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

It’s probably his opinion Hodder ...

he didn't say in his opinion, having not been in the interviews I think I don't have an an opinion

but if and when I do I am sure my wife will tell me what it is.

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35 minutes ago, bris red said:

I’m sure we had plenty of these sort of applicants but again and again we are told Dean Holden was the outstanding candidate.. i personally wouldn’t have been against a foreign appointment - i still cannot and will not get over the fact that Mr Holden was genuinely the best choice for the role but there we have it.

I share your pain mate, but we are where we are.

I get the impression that Dean is a decent man but I cannot believe he was the best choice given his utter lack of experience. 

SL’s Talk Sport interview after LJ went is an utter contradiction to the end result.

I would truly love this to work out but, I fear it won’t. The 12 month contract suggests the club have doubts, IF he was the MAN he would have a longer deal.

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38 minutes ago, bris red said:

 i still cannot and will not get over the fact that Mr Holden was genuinely the best choice for the role but there we have it.

 

36 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

He wasn’t/isn’t. 

There could well be a difference between being the best applicant for the job and being the right man for the job.

It might just be that that while, on paper, Holden might not have looked like to be the former, he will turn out to be the latter.

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This kind of random appointment but from Germany, France or wherever really was what I was hoping for. 

It would truely have been a test of Ashtons connections and understanding of of the game and where its going. 

Instead we have Dean Holden. 

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14 hours ago, reddoh said:

please tell how you know this?

It’s my opinion, last time I checked a forum was a place to share opinions, whether they’re right or wrong. 

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5 hours ago, OddBallJim said:

It’s my opinion, last time I checked a forum was a place to share opinions, whether they’re right or wrong. 

I think opinions are opinions - there is no right or wrong, that's the point!

This isn't intended as a dig at you,Oddball (or do you prefer Jim?!), but you have to say that there's been a lot of confusion between opinion and fact on here recently. And also a tendency to dismiss, even abuse, opinions as being worthless, or just plain wrong (as a fact) when they don't match the writers own. And interestingly nowhere has that been more obvious than in response to the opinions of those who probably have the most informed opinion of all - namely Mark Ashton, and the Lansdowns.

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2 hours ago, italian dave said:

I think opinions are opinions - there is no right or wrong, that's the point!

This isn't intended as a dig at you,Oddball (or do you prefer Jim?!), but you have to say that there's been a lot of confusion between opinion and fact on here recently. And also a tendency to dismiss, even abuse, opinions as being worthless, or just plain wrong (as a fact) when they don't match the writers own. And interestingly nowhere has that been more obvious than in response to the opinions of those who probably have the most informed opinion of all - namely Mark Ashton, and the Lansdowns.

Jim is fine 👍🏻 Though many think I am an Oddball.

I think the current dismissive and somewhat abusive toxicity on the forum is partly endemic of the pent up frustration many of us have with the lack of transparency, and misdirection in communication that came out from the club regarding the next managerial appointment. 
 

Someone recently made an excellent point (can’t for the life of me find the post/poster again) about what exactly the ‘outstanding candidate’ is for our managerial vacancy. This would be someone with an outstanding CV, a proven track record of success, a wide range of contacts within the game, a respected knowledge of football in the second and first tiers.

Dean Holden isn’t any of those things. Now he may be to Lansdown and Ashton the ‘right man’ for the job, and a great human, but he is in no way the star candidate or the most qualified for the job. Taking all of that into consideration of Lansdown’s quote about appointing someone to ‘take us to the next level’, for me personally that is never in a month of Sundays Dean Holden. 
 

It’s all very well saying he was the best at interview, but surely he’s at something of an advantage over the other candidates since he already knows the squad, infrastructure and resources at disposal. He also probably won’t be looking to ruffle any feathers by increasing demands on budgets or transfers in lieu of it being his first managerial chance.
 

I’m sure Dean Holden is a top guy, but I’m just very, very fed up with the club right now and it beggars belief that the assistant to the man who wasn’t good enough for the job anymore, is now the man for the job. I just don’t buy it, at all. 
 

Hope that qualifies my earlier abrupt post mucker.
 

 

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23 hours ago, bris red said:

I’m sure we had plenty of these sort of applicants but again and again we are told Dean Holden was the outstanding candidate.. i personally wouldn’t have been against a foreign appointment - i still cannot and will not get over the fact that Mr Holden was genuinely the best choice for the role but there we have it.

Even if Lansdown couldn't get Hughton or Gerrard it wouldn't have cost much to get Lowe or Wellens who have have more experience than Holden 

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On 15/08/2020 at 22:46, GrahamC said:

I won’t profess to know much about him so cannot possibly say whether I’d prefer him to Holden, but he’s just won the Israeli league for the second year running & has previously coached a side that has won the Greek cup, so he’s not exactly some chancer sticking in a spurious application, is he?

Hilarious!  The Israeli league probably compares with League Two and there are three or possibly four half-decent teams in Greece.  People forget that the Championship is reputed to be the fifth strongest league in the world.

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1 hour ago, OddBallJim said:

Jim is fine 👍🏻 Though many think I am an Oddball.

I think the current dismissive and somewhat abusive toxicity on the forum is partly endemic of the pent up frustration many of us have with the lack of transparency, and misdirection in communication that came out from the club regarding the next managerial appointment. 
 

Someone recently made an excellent point (can’t for the life of me find the post/poster again) about what exactly the ‘outstanding candidate’ is for our managerial vacancy. This would be someone with an outstanding CV, a proven track record of success, a wide range of contacts within the game, a respected knowledge of football in the second and first tiers.

Dean Holden isn’t any of those things. Now he may be to Lansdown and Ashton the ‘right man’ for the job, and a great human, but he is in no way the star candidate or the most qualified for the job. Taking all of that into consideration of Lansdown’s quote about appointing someone to ‘take us to the next level’, for me personally that is never in a month of Sundays Dean Holden. 
 

It’s all very well saying he was the best at interview, but surely he’s at something of an advantage over the other candidates since he already knows the squad, infrastructure and resources at disposal. He also probably won’t be looking to ruffle any feathers by increasing demands on budgets or transfers in lieu of it being his first managerial chance.
 

I’m sure Dean Holden is a top guy, but I’m just very, very fed up with the club right now and it beggars belief that the assistant to the man who wasn’t good enough for the job anymore, is now the man for the job. I just don’t buy it, at all. 
 

Hope that qualifies my earlier abrupt post mucker.
 

 

Thanks Jim.  One opinion we'd certainly agree on is about the communication from the club throughout this past few weeks. I certainly think that hasn't helped.

For what it's worth, my take on recent events is this.

Firstly, although it wasn't an overwhelming appointment, Dean Holden (or Gary McAllister) was what I expected right from the off. Lansdown has communicated (better) in the past a fairly clear view he's had for a good few years. We went through a period of changing managers, personalities, playing styles, playing squads on an annual basis and he got his fingers burnt, The most "outstanding" appointment he made was one Steve Coppell. And since then he's been pretty clear that he sees 'pathways' through the club as being relevant not just to the playing side but to management and coaching as well. 

So, that's the starting criteria. That clearly puts Holden at an advantage, just as is the case with most internal candidates in most recruitment situations - certainly if they've got as far as interview.

However, my take is that, several years on from the last time we actually had to replace a manager, it wasn't unreasonable for the Board to think that maybe they should be open to challenge on it. Give an opportunity to hear an external viewpoint, someone (like Hughton) with a good track record elsewhere, and say to them a) is our a'pathways' approach on the playing side right and b) if it is, could you work with it. Convince us either that we're wrong about it, or that you could come in and maintain that continuity post-Johnson without disrupting all that. And Hughton, and others, failed to convince them. 

I'm sure the Board will take the view that their approach hasn't done us badly for the past few years. It's certainly achieved more than the previous chop and change routines did. Based on most objective criteria (money, league status etc) that's a fact, not an opinion. So, their opinion will be that it's the right approach, their opinion will be that no-one's convinced them otherwise, and with that as the principal criteria around the appointment, no-one's convinced them that they'd offer what they want from the next appointment more than Holden.

I also think - and maybe this is where Holden either suggested - or agreed - a slightly different approach to LJ, and that's to make better use of youngsters coming through the academy in preference to bringing in (young and cheap) transfers. LJ seems to prefer the transfer route, picking up young-ish players like Brownhill, Webster, HNM for £xx and increasing their value. What I suspect we're now looking at doing is cutting out the middle man and bringing them straight through. Still with a view to selling when the money is right.

I'm not sure if the above is opinion, or just theory! Whatever, it's just conjecture, but it's why I think that the Lansdowns and Ashton saw Holden as the obvious candidate from the start, were prepared to be challenged on that, but weren't convinced. And, as I said in my earlier post, even though it's still their opinion, they are a lot lot closer to the reasons behind it - from the financial imperatives, through to Hughton's interview, than any of us are.

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1 hour ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Hilarious!  The Israeli league probably compares with League Two and there are three or possibly four half-decent teams in Greece.  People forget that the Championship is reputed to be the fifth strongest league in the world.

I agree but is the Championship stronger than the Eredivisie or the Primeira Liga? Could even make a shout for the Danish Superliga or Belgium being up there.

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On 16/08/2020 at 00:56, Mr Popodopolous said:

Ivic- Watford

Tindall- Bournemouth

Hardly the sort of names a lot or the media, whoever might have anticipated.

Ivic, like Holden, only on a one year contract too (with an option). A sign of the times? (Or, in Watford's case, maybe just reality!)

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4 hours ago, italian dave said:

Ivic, like Holden, only on a one year contract too (with an option). A sign of the times? (Or, in Watford's case, maybe just reality!)

Maybe! Didn't know was so short, rolling? I'd have thought their expectation will be top 6 minimum but we'll see.

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On 16/08/2020 at 05:42, Northern Red said:

Looks delighted to be there...

EfexJE8WkAENqLT?format=jpg&name=large

What a car crash. The kit and his face. It reminds me of the 'kerzap' of a batman scene.

Where is that fella from then? Somewhere like Transdinistra?

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