Backing Holden in this transfer window

[CodeRed]

I don't see Holden having much input into the targets we are monitoring, other than the token "final nod" for the recruitment department's chosen players. Ashton has told us repeatedly that his team "work all year on recruitment " to find the exact players to fit into our system . I'm sure the lists were already in place regardless of who the Head Coach is.

The whole point of appointing DH was that he fits into the structure and works with Ashton.  Presumably a budget has been set for the new season comprising whatever income the club can muster - including the oft quoted "player trades" -plus whatever Lansdown is prepared to cover,  and Mark Ashton will work to that. DH may well suggest positions he wants to strengthen (eg central defender) but Ashton will be giving a list of names to DH rather than the other way around. IMO.

[Murraysrightplum]

Think the transfer policy is fairly independent of the head coach/manager so he’ll get what he gets. That seems to be the ‘philosophy’ of the club and possibly the reason we struggle to employ big name managers. Of course Holden will get a voice and opinion in the discussions

[Monkeh]

We know lansdown will back him with in reason the same as every manager that's served under him,

Its not that simple though, you have to factor in wages signing on fees ffp reduced income,

I doubt we have much wriggle room on those fronts due to the previous scatter gun approach to transfers 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, CodeRed said:

I don't see Holden having much input into the targets we are monitoring, other than the token "final nod" for the recruitment department's chosen players. Ashton has told us repeatedly that his team "work all year on recruitment " to find the exact players to fit into our system . I'm sure the lists were already in place regardless of who the Head Coach is.

The whole point of appointing DH was that he fits into the structure and works with Ashton.  Presumably a budget has been set for the new season comprising whatever income the club can muster - including the oft quoted "player trades" -plus whatever Lansdown is prepared to cover,  and Mark Ashton will work to that. DH may well suggest positions he wants to strengthen (eg central defender) but Ashton will be giving a list of names to DH rather than the other way around. IMO.

If that is the case, especially the underlined but, they’ve probably wasted 12 months...if Holden is gonna play 352.

LJ started last season playing a back 4 v Leeds.

LJ started post-covid playing a back 4 v Blackburn

I don’t believe we recruited towards a back 3/5....it’s why we have bought wingers...Eliasson, O’Dowda, Watkins, J.Smith and Adelakun.

It’s why the squad looked disjointed because we never knew the likely system.

[CliftonCliff]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

If that is the case, especially the underlined but, they’ve probably wasted 12 months...if Holden is gonna play 352.

LJ started last season playing a back 4 v Leeds.

LJ started post-covid playing a back 4 v Blackburn

I don’t believe we recruited towards a back 3/5....it’s why we have bought wingers...Eliasson, O’Dowda, Watkins, J.Smith and Adelakun.

It’s why the squad looked disjointed because we never knew the likely system.

Absolutely right. The question this begs, then, is why has player recruitment at times been so out of step with first team coaching and tactics?

You'll recall, Dave, a couple of recent threads on the forum where the dynamics of the relationships between the three senior figures at the club were debated. I have referred more than once to those dynamics as dysfunctional. You could extend that argument to include the coordination (or lack of it) between the triumvirate at the top and the coaching team, and the way it impacts on squad development. You might, I suppose, characterise it as a lack of "joined-up thinking". There are endless examples, and they go back far further than the one year you mention. It is a recurring theme. One example, taken pretty much at random, would be Jens Hegeler who was, in the opinion not just of myself but a number of OTIB members whose judgement I respect, a fine footballer who could have done this club a lot of good, but he rarely featured because, apparently, he did not fit with our preferred way of playing at the time. So why sign him - and whose decision was that? You've given other valid examples: how much time on OTIB has been spent, for instance, endlessly pondering how to fit the undoubted talent of Eliasson into the way we set up? 

But I think it also needs to be understood that this is a specific instance of a much deeper problem in the way the club operates. We have seen over a long period of time a tendency to say one thing and then do another. The famous Five Pillars were a case in point. The basic principles enshrined in that philosophy were on the whole perfectly sound and hard to disagree with. But the consistency with which those principles were implemented have fluctuated wildly at times. You do not see erratic outcomes like these being produced by well-run organisations with a healthy senior management culture and a top team collaborating smoothly in the pursuit of an agreed strategy.

This is, in my view, why we have just seen it take the club some six weeks to appoint a man who was already in their employ at the start of the selection procedure, in stark contradiction to comments made at the outset that clearly encouraged us to anticipate the announcement of some sort of "marquee" appointment. Despite all the talk to the contrary, this is not the product of a cohesive team working towards a clear vision.

So, and to return to your very good point about player recruitment, this aspect of the club's operations has to be seen in the light of a much more general tendency to produce inconsistent and contradictory decisions. It does not bode well. I have no problem whatsoever with Holden, to whom I wish nothing but the best, but I do not envy him having to operate under that extremely dubious senior management culture.

[Dynamite Red]

It's fine moving to 3-5-2 but we need a back up plan, what if Dasilva or Hunt get injured or in poor form?

We need some decent back ups in the wingback roles especially RWB.

Hopefully Rowe or Pring can step up on the left. The wingback role is a tough slog, we can't just rely on one player.

Selling Eliasson is fine but if we're chasing the game we still need the option of a wide player or two.

[1960maaan]

In my mind as they said he's the best man, then they have to back him, as much as they can currently.

He said 3-5-2 is the best system for the squad we have, and supposing nothing has changed we need a CMF (Williams?) & RWB (not so urgent with Vyner and Moore filling in). We are supposedly in talks with Ashley Williams , which would add experience .I imaging we could manage that without having to sell. 
If Fam goes we would need cover, Eliasson could add funds to the pot too. I've said before, if they are that keen on the academy then they have to give Semenyo and Janneh a chance to sink or swim. Under LJ the forwards were feeding on scraps, with our new age of attacking football maybe they will show what they can do. 

I don't see a big turnover of players, and less 'punts' taken this year , so that's why I think he will stick to the 3-5-2. Also it will put less pressure on the club when there is little money coming in, one of the reasons we have DH in charge maybe.

[Mr Popodopolous]

 

29 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

We are supposedly in talks with Ashley Williams

I'm unconvinced about this one- not that we're in talks, more that it would be the right move to renew- thinking about how a 36 year old CB fits into a medium-high line/press. They don't!

Perhaps it would be alright in a back 3, but I'm not altogether convinced.

[1960maaan]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

 

I'm unconvinced about this one- not that we're in talks, more that it would be the right move to renew- thinking about how a 36 year old CB fits into a medium-high line/press. They don't!

Perhaps it would be alright in a back 3, but I'm not altogether convinced.

Supposing we stick with the back 3, Baker, Kalas and one from Vyner, Moore and Williams. I saw rumours of a coaching role, add that he can cover and mentor the younger lads, I see it as a reasonable and cost effective choice.
I imagine the club would want Moore & Vyner to step up, Williams could be a safety net should it be needed . *cough   Baker comes off after 15 minutes 

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Supposing we stick with the back 3, Baker, Kalas and one from Vyner, Moore and Williams. I saw rumours of a coaching role, add that he can cover and mentor the younger lads, I see it as a reasonable and cost effective choice.
I imagine the club would want Moore & Vyner to step up, Williams could be a safety net should it be needed . *cough   Baker comes off after 15 minutes 

Coaching role to follow, that would be different- cover and mentor maybe- but again 36 year olds, high line- Williams has not been noted for his speed/pace for a number of years now in any case.

[Mr Popodopolous]

8 hours ago, tin said:

Thing is though what gives us any indication the board knows what they’re doing when it comes to getting their main transfer targets? 

Look at the TWO debacles with Nketiah. There are a lot of similarities between those pursuits and the five-week hunt for LJ’s assistant. 

As usual, clubs around us are doing business while we stand still. That will probably mean several last-minute additions of more deadwood in or around deadline day. 

Could you elaborate on this, perhaps list the notable inbound business?

Maybe I'm behind by a few days but it seems questionable based on the last time I checked.

At QPR, they have signed Lyndon Dykes but he has big boots to fill- will be honest and say I don't know much about him but Hugill gone for now, Wells in 6 months was one of their top scorers- gone!

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/letztetransfers/wettbewerb/GB2

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

List the notable inbound business?

Maybe I'm behind by a few days but I'm not sure about this last time I checked.

Same every transfer window,

People will start to panic next week,

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Monkeh said:

Same every transfer window,

People will start to panic next week,

 

Window is open until sometime in October, think for domestic it is mid October and early October in general.

[marcofisher]

15 hours ago, SX227 said:

If DH has a plan to be more attacking, then he needs to move on those who don't fit into that plan, and recruit new ones that do.

I'd like to see the back of the 'busy bees' - COD, Andi W and Pato.

When they are on, then they are very good - but that can be 1 in 5 games, and bang average the other 4.

I'd rather he played grafters who get stuck in - Rowe and Walsh for example, and add a sprinkle of flair - KP for example.

But first - not 'ones he can trust' - but a starting 11 that will put in the hard tackles, chase back and work up and down the pitch all day long. We have too many 'downhill skiers' as the saying goes.

Sadly we look like losing one of the best grafters in Fammy.

I'd rather lose 3-0 and try all game, than watch the dross of the last 2 years and lose 1-0 with the 'busy bees' contributing bugger all.

 

A solid midfield 4 would help - let us have the extra player for a change.

4-4-2

Keep it simple, and work your heart out for the shirt.

 

A nicely written and considered post, this I can’t agree with however. 442 will hopefully be something that is consigned to the past now that LJ is gone, does not suit the personnel we have.

[tin]

47 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

List the notable inbound business?

Maybe I'm behind by a few days but I'm not sure about this last time I checked.

At QPR, they have signed Lyndon Dykes but he has big boots to fill- will be honest and say I don't know much about him but Hugill gone for now, Wells in 6 months was one of their top scorers- gone!

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/letztetransfers/wettbewerb/GB2

Here are a select few from the last week:

QPR: Dykes, Amos

Brentford: Goode

Norwich: Quintilla, Skipp (two of six new signings)

Stoke: Obi Mikel, Fletcher

Wycombe: Ikpeazu

Huddersfield: Ward

Barnsley: Ludewig

Swansea: Woodman, Smith

Cardiff: Moore

Watford: Ngakia

Forest: Taylor

Sheff Weds: Dunkley

I’m sure I’ve missed some but the source if you want to check is BBC Sport > Transfers. 

Some of those clubs have parachute payments to spend, most don’t. All of them have a plan. 

[irishreds]

7 hours ago, CodeRed said:

I don't see Holden having much input into the targets we are monitoring, other than the token "final nod" for the recruitment department's chosen players. Ashton has told us repeatedly that his team "work all year on recruitment " to find the exact players to fit into our system . I'm sure the lists were already in place regardless of who the Head Coach is.

The whole point of appointing DH was that he fits into the structure and works with Ashton.  Presumably a budget has been set for the new season comprising whatever income the club can muster - including the oft quoted "player trades" -plus whatever Lansdown is prepared to cover,  and Mark Ashton will work to that. DH may well suggest positions he wants to strengthen (eg central defender) but Ashton will be giving a list of names to DH rather than the other way around. IMO.

I hope this is wrong and the 3 coaches do have a say and can veto any Ashton decision's. Then again we have a well paid but average and compliant large squad of players, with very few leaders, so perhaps you're correct.

I really don't see the point in this expensive 'Talent Team' with a talentless DoF (perhaps good CEO) leader like Ashton, the process would never sign a Kenny Burns (Brian Clough "we've signed a hooligan from Birmingham City") or retained a John Robertson (Brian Clough "Scruffy, unfit and uninterested and on the transfer list when I joined"). They only went on to win 2 European Cup Finals. I doubt we'd sign a Roy Keane with Ashton's dodgy algorithm.

Holden will need to bring players in. Joe Williams could be a good signing.

   

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, CliftonCliff said:

Absolutely right. The question this begs, then, is why has player recruitment at times been so out of step with first team coaching and tactics?
I would imagine that between the head-coach and recruitment team there has been pandering to whims.  LJ -I need a winger Mark, it’s the final piece in the jigsaw.  MA - but we don’t play with wingers Lee, you’ve had Browny and Joe in wide midfield.  LJ - yeah, but if I had one (or 4), I’d play them, and it would give me bigger than marginal gains.  MA - ok, I’ll get Ryan Kent on loan

Johnson happy.  Ashton’s ego boosted by getting a Liverpool kid on loan.

Summer comes round.  LJ - I need a winger, last one went back on loan.  MA - but you didn’t play the last one.  LJ - yeah, you got me the wrong one from Barnsley, I really wanted Watkins, but he’d gone to Norwich by the time the window had come around.  MA - yeah, they are looking to get shot too.

etc, etc.  Ok, I’m being facetious, but it’s a contrived example To demonstrate  how all the ducks aren’t aligned.  With a football system to plan to, you lessen the risk of bringing in the wrong players.

You'll recall, Dave, a couple of recent threads on the forum where the dynamics of the relationships between the three senior figures at the club were debated. I have referred more than once to those dynamics as dysfunctional. You could extend that argument to include the coordination (or lack of it) between the triumvirate at the top and the coaching team, and the way it impacts on squad development. You might, I suppose, characterise it as a lack of "joined-up thinking". There are endless examples, and they go back far further than the one year you mention. It is a recurring theme. One example, taken pretty much at random, would be Jens Hegeler who was, in the opinion not just of myself but a number of OTIB members whose judgement I respect, a fine footballer who could have done this club a lot of good, but he rarely featured because, apparently, he did not fit with our preferred way of playing at the time. So why sign him - and whose decision was that? You've given other valid examples: how much time on OTIB has been spent, for instance, endlessly pondering how to fit the undoubted talent of Eliasson into the way we set up?

yep, in Jens’ case he comes in at RCB in a back 3, before being moved into CM in a 442 (or variant), then ends up back at CB.  What was the real plan?  Had Ashton found a new Agency in Germany to work with?  Neither examples above (Watkins and Kent) are Wasserman clients now, of course they could’ve been at the time but I can’t find anything that says so. Was this Ashton’s whim? MA - Lee, got these two shit hot Germans, Hegeler, played Champions League, Geifer, a keeper, just back from injury. (Lee watches videos, has a look at data) LJ - certainly got pedigree, not sure where Hegeler would  fit in though! MA - look, he’s versatile, if we get him, you can find a place.  LJ - ok, lets go for it.

Now, this seems fantasy land, but how did we get Hegeler and what was the plan?

But I think it also needs to be understood that this is a specific instance of a much deeper problem in the way the club operates. We have seen over a long period of time a tendency to say one thing and then do another. The famous Five Pillars were a case in point. The basic principles enshrined in that philosophy were on the whole perfectly sound and hard to disagree with. But the consistency with which those principles were implemented have fluctuated wildly at times. You do not see erratic outcomes like these being produced by well-run organisations with a healthy senior management culture and a top team collaborating smoothly in the pursuit of an agreed strategy.

Yep, it looks like it’s being paid lip service to.  What’s  happened to the “play the same system right through the club” for example?

This is, in my view, why we have just seen it take the club some six weeks to appoint a man who was already in their employ at the start of the selection procedure, in stark contradiction to comments made at the outset that clearly encouraged us to anticipate the announcement of some sort of "marquee" appointment. Despite all the talk to the contrary, this is not the product of a cohesive team working towards a clear vision.

So, and to return to your very good point about player recruitment, this aspect of the club's operations has to be seen in the light of a much more general tendency to produce inconsistent and contradictory decisions. It does not bode well. I have no problem whatsoever with Holden, to whom I wish nothing but the best, but I do not envy him having to operate under that extremely dubious senior management culture.

 

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

In my mind as they said he's the best man, then they have to back him, as much as they can currently.

He said 3-5-2 is the best system for the squad we have, and supposing nothing has changed we need a CMF (Williams?) & RWB (not so urgent with Vyner and Moore filling in). We are supposedly in talks with Ashley Williams , which would add experience .I imaging we could manage that without having to sell. 
If Fam goes we would need cover, Eliasson could add funds to the pot too. I've said before, if they are that keen on the academy then they have to give Semenyo and Janneh a chance to sink or swim. Under LJ the forwards were feeding on scraps, with our new age of attacking football maybe they will show what they can do. 

I don't see a big turnover of players, and less 'punts' taken this year , so that's why I think he will stick to the 3-5-2. Also it will put less pressure on the club when there is little money coming in, one of the reasons we have DH in charge maybe.

 

[maxjak]

15 hours ago, Redstoke said:

Couldnt really give a toss anymore, look out for the results and thats about it tbh.

So due to the fact you don't give a toss, you have taken the time and trouble to come on here to tell us you don't give a toss, when if you really didn't give a toss, you wouldn't be on here informing us you don't give a toss? 

[1960maaan]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

“play the same system right through the club”

The major problem with that, was that the Academy/youth/U23 coaches couldn't implement, it as they never had a clue what system we were playing either 

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Coaching role to follow, that would be different- cover and mentor maybe- but again 36 year olds, high line- Williams has not been noted for his speed/pace for a number of years now in any case.

Perfect world?

Baker stays on all 90, Vyner and Moore are so good they keep Williams on the bench. It may be a cheap option, but it is an option. To buy someone in, you have to improve on what we have, that would be expensive unless we take a punt, which would probably stop the  younger lads getting a run.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

46 minutes ago, tin said:

Here are a select few from the last week:

QPR: Dykes, Amos

Brentford: Goode

Norwich: Quintilla, Skipp (two of six new signings)

Stoke: Obi Mikel, Fletcher

Wycombe: Ikpeazu

Huddersfield: Ward

Barnsley: Ludewig

Swansea: Woodman, Smith

Cardiff: Moore

Watford: Ngakia

Forest: Taylor

Sheff Weds: Dunkley

I’m sure I’ve missed some but the source if you want to check is BBC Sport > Transfers. 

Some of those clubs have parachute payments to spend, most don’t. All of them have a plan. 

Okay, thanks- I'll go through a few of those moves and clubs.

Dykes to replace Hugill and Wells as it stands- big ask. Amos was already there on loan, is that strengthening as such?

Brentford- Don't know much about Goode if I'm honest but that could be a net strengthening thusfar.

Norwich- Parachute Payments, well run.

Stoke- Free transfers, walking the FFP line a bit.

Wycombe will surely be right down there.

Huddersfield- Decent addition, unknown quantity as manager- could go either way.

Barnsley may or may not be down there- in terms of underlying numbers, these were were midtable- but he was there on loan last season.

Swansea- Woodman on loan last season, Smith yes- but look who they have lost thusfar! Van Der Hoorn, Gallagher,Brewster and Surrridge to name 4. There will be more if we look through and having seen Parachute Payments down by £20m, it could pose them some questions- don't rule out Cooper getting some good loans though, given his role.

Watford- Yes, and I think they have a strong squad- not even sure on paper they should've gone down last season tbh.

Nottingham Forest have I believe strengthened somewhat- Cash and Worrall being linked with moves away though, this could negate things or even set them back.

Sheffield Wednesday- Look highly likely to be starting on -12, also look at the players they have lost! Last I checked, 39/57 goals.

[Matthew me]

Im guessing he will back the human.

Having completed such a vigorous search of K9's , felines, birds and humans, it's only logical he backs him now

To be fair, he's got a reasonable track record of backing managers. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, 1960maaan said:

Perfect world?

Baker stays on all 90, Vyner and Moore are so good they keep Williams on the bench. It may be a cheap option, but it is an option. To buy someone in, you have to improve on what we have, that would be expensive unless we take a punt, which would probably stop the  younger lads getting a run.  

If it’s about stretching the playing budget I’d happily accept A.Williams as the 5th CB (TK, NB, TM, ZV) and dual role coaching....but you want to see that Midfielder or RWB come in as a result.

Having said that, I see no reason that if they are still talking he hasn’t been training or coaching with them.

[spudski]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If it’s about stretching the playing budget I’d happily accept A.Williams as the 5th CB (TK, NB, TM, ZV) and dual role coaching....but you want to see that Midfielder or RWB come in as a result.

Having said that, I see no reason that if they are still talking he hasn’t been training or coaching with them.

I keep hearing Williams being spouted as a coach as well as player. 

Why do people think he'd be a good coach?

Have they seen his credentials in coaching or heard him coach?

Not being funny mate...but I've worked with some of the best professional skiers on the planet, but they couldn't coach for toffee...I'm sure it's the same in all professions. 

Being good at football doesn't translate to being good at teaching, coaching, communicating, understanding etc

[Davefevs]

Just now, spudski said:

I keep hearing Williams being spouted as a coach as well as player. 

Why do people think he'd be a good coach?

Have they seen his credentials in coaching or heard him coach?

Not being funny mate...but I've worked with some of the best professional skiers on the planet, but they couldn't coach for toffee...I'm sure it's the same in all professions. 

Being good at football doesn't translate to being good at teaching, coaching, communicating, understanding etc

I don’t know myself....but I know someone at the club who says he’s been a really good influence in the dressing room and at the training ground, especially with the younger element of the first team and beneath.  So wasn’t a random suggestion, plus BP suggested could be a player coach role.

For all I know he could be on trial somewhere trying to secure a playing deal.

[spudski]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t know myself....but I know someone at the club who says he’s been a really good influence in the dressing room and at the training ground, especially with the younger element of the first team and beneath.  So wasn’t a random suggestion, plus BP suggested could be a player coach role.

For all I know he could be on trial somewhere trying to secure a playing deal.

Fair play mate... although I have found influence and experience different to coaching skills.

[tin]

42 minutes ago, spudski said:

I keep hearing Williams being spouted as a coach as well as player. 

Why do people think he'd be a good coach?

Have they seen his credentials in coaching or heard him coach?

Not being funny mate...but I've worked with some of the best professional skiers on the planet, but they couldn't coach for toffee...I'm sure it's the same in all professions. 

Being good at football doesn't translate to being good at teaching, coaching, communicating, understanding etc

A mate of mine who works for Everton speaks highly of Williams, in particular his people skills. He said he’s been working towards his A-licence through the Welsh FA and reckons he’ll make a decent manager in the future. As part of doing his coaching badges, he’s helped with the Everton and Stoke youth teams. 

Williams has played for Rodgers, Laudrup, Koeman (new Barca coach), Allardyce, Martinez. Mix that with top level pedigree as a player and I think having him as a coach would be a good move for us. I dare say he’s got a better coaching profile than Holden.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Fair play mate... although I have found influence and experience different to coaching skills.

“Influence” being used generically in my statement.  I’ve no more info than what I was told and it’s full context.

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

If it’s about stretching the playing budget I’d happily accept A.Williams as the 5th CB (TK, NB, TM, ZV) and dual role coaching....but you want to see that Midfielder or RWB come in as a result.

Having said that, I see no reason that if they are still talking he hasn’t been training or coaching with them.

I don't know what we have as a budget, or if DH sees things the same as many fans but Williams would be my priority, then probably a RWB and CB.  I think our funds will be limited until players move on, maybe even after. No guarantee Holden will get all the money he generates, but SL has been good to previous managers.

1 hour ago, spudski said:

I keep hearing Williams being spouted as a coach as well as player. 

Why do people think he'd be a good coach?

They would have had a chance to see what he's like last year, I assumed as it would be his first coaching role, it would be a way to right of the wages as well, bit like Gilmartin?

 

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

For all I know he could be on trial somewhere trying to secure a playing deal.

I have seen a few Tweets linking him with at least one other club, one said he was in talks. TBH who really knows?

[Curr Avon]

14 hours ago, tin said:

Thing is though what gives us any indication the board knows what they’re doing when it comes to getting their main transfer targets? 

Look at the TWO debacles with Nketiah. There are a lot of similarities between those pursuits and the five-week hunt for LJ’s assistant. 

As usual, clubs around us are doing business while we stand still. That will probably mean several last-minute additions of more deadwood in or around deadline day. 

I certainly share your concerns about transfers being 'last minute.com'. And you can also add the Henriksen loan to that list. The Norwegian hadn't played a competitive match for 2 months before debuting against Derby. In fact he'd had no club football all season, just a handful of international appearances. So much for replacing Brownhill.