Famara

[Nibor]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The Afobe post-Covid was a shadow of the autumn Afobe we saw.  I wish him all the best, and will be interested to see if he can get back to that pre-injury level.

I think you have to view that in the context that our team post-Covid was also a shadow of the team it had been before and he was over relied on coming back from a serious injury.  Typically Fam takes a good half a dozen games to get up to scratch as well.  I can understand the club not taking the risk with Afobe, I only actually mentioned him to make the point that there are players out there for the right sort of money.

[Davefevs]

Just now, Nibor said:

I think you have to view that in the context that our team post-Covid was also a shadow of the team it had been before and he was over relied on coming back from a serious injury.  Typically Fam takes a good half a dozen games to get up to scratch as well.  I can understand the club not taking the risk with Afobe, I only actually mentioned him to make the point that there are players out there for the right sort of money.

We were shit weren’t we!

[collier]

5 minutes ago, Nibor said:

It's not really a great comparison though because you're including three or four seasons of Premiership football for Afobe and a whole load of sub appearances - and seven seasons of French league two and below for Fam with very few sub appearances.  Their actual goals per starts in the championship are about equal and Afobe is more creative.

But my argument isn't about stats, it's about what you see when you watch them.  Fam is strong, and jumps well.  He can hit a ball and wants to be getting on the end of stuff inside the box.  He defends well.  We use him badly as a target man and he lacks the control to do that effectively, heading the ball quite inaccurately and losing it too much.  He'd be far better playing off a target man than being on his own which we have never seemed prepared to do.

Afobe had far better movement, control and passing and was at least as strong, IMO he was better suited to playing on his own than Fam as he coped better with isolation - but the biggest difference for me was movement.  He was going into gaps and making passes look good, something Fam has never done - and as a result we were albeit briefly playing with the ball on the floor.  Injury aside I'd have happily traded Fam for Adobe on what we saw.

 

Bottom line is 114 appearances and 38 goals. Afobe played 12 and scored 3. How anyone can compare this as a striker and conclude that the latter would be preferred is beyond me. Strikers are there to score goals, Fam does this and also is light years better at defending as a bonus. People can argue the semantics all they want but when you boil down what your strikers bring to the team the first thing most people agree on is GOALS. Fam scores 1 in 3 for Bristol City. For 5 million that is value with the added defensive bonus. Afobe is pie in the sky shoulda would coulda done this for Bristol City and would cost as much if not more. 

[collier]

17 minutes ago, Nibor said:

But my argument isn't about stats

He's a good defender but he doesn't score or create more goals than Afobe.

 

You also said both of these things. Which argument are you trying to make here??

[Davefevs]

You have to bring the pre and post injury into the debate.

The contribution in his opening 5 games for us, kept Fam out of the team....as a team we were playing better than at any stage in the season.

[Nibor]

11 minutes ago, collier said:

Bottom line is 114 appearances and 38 goals. Afobe played 12 and scored 3. How anyone can compare this as a striker and conclude that the latter would be preferred is beyond me. Strikers are there to score goals, Fam does this and also is light years better at defending as a bonus. People can argue the semantics all they want but when you boil down what your strikers bring to the team the first thing most people agree on is GOALS. Fam scores 1 in 3 for Bristol City. For 5 million that is value with the added defensive bonus. Afobe is pie in the sky shoulda would coulda done this for Bristol City and would cost as much if not more. 

 

4 minutes ago, collier said:

He's a good defender but he doesn't score or create more goals than Afobe.

 

You also said both of these things. Which argument are you trying to make here??

Afobe's senior record in the championship or above.

Wolves - 43 apps (3) sub apps - 22 goals

Bournemouth - 31 (32) - 10 goals

Wolves again - 7 (9) - 6 goals

Sjoke - 33 (13) - 8 goals

For us - 8 (5) - 5 goals

Goals per start - 51/122 = 0.41

Fam's senior record in championship or above.

For us 92 (22) - 38 goals

38 / 92 - 0.41

My original point remains - I think if we got more than we paid for Fam I'd be ok with that because I believe there are better players to be had, Afobe being only an example and that example being based on watching them both play not just stats.

[Nibor]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

The contribution in his opening 5 games for us, kept Fam out of the team....as a team we were playing better than at any stage in the season.

I believe that when we play with just Fam up front the team performance suffers, we tend to go long much more and create very few chances as a result.  That's a big part of my indifference.  I don't think Fam is a centre forward, but a striker who is wrongly forced into that role. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I believe that when we play with just Fam up front the team performance suffers, we tend to go long much more and create very few chances as a result.  That's a big part of my indifference.  I don't think Fam is a centre forward, but a striker who is wrongly forced into that role. 

I agree.  As I’ve often said, I watched a fair bit of him at Angers and he was not a target man / centre forward.

If I had a pre-injury Afobe and Diedhiou - I’d pick Afobe.

But I do think there is more to come from Diedhiou if Holden can play him to his strengths (LJ didn’t).

[Swede]

An illustration of a goal scorer.

A few years ago after promotion we signed, with a big fanfare, the best striker in League 1 Adi Akinbyi for £1.2M. He terrorised defences with his powerful running, led the line well and scored plenty of goals.

Shortly afterwards we signed with less fanfare and less money £800K one Tony Thorpe.

Very often in matches Akinbyi would need two or three chances to score or would get caught offside.

Thorpe was a lot more clinical with his chances and subtle with his movement and rarely got caught offside. Instinctive.

A few years later it was a real pleasure to watch Gerry Gow's testimonial to not only pay homage to the great man but also to see Thorpe's movement one last time and he didn't disappoint.

If you watch the You Tube video of City beating the sags 3:2 (granted, its a little old and grainy now) with Beadle Millen & Thorpe playing, you can pick out Thorpe's movement for his goal from Aaron Brown's run and cross. Absolutely brilliant.

Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

[The Fat Controller]

3 minutes ago, Swede said:

An illustration of a goal scorer.

A few years ago after promotion we signed, with a big fanfare, the best striker in League 1 Adi Akinbyi for £1.2M. He terrorised defences with his powerful running, led the line well and scored plenty of goals.

Shortly afterwards we signed with less fanfare and less money £800K one Tony Thorpe.

Very often in matches Akinbyi would need two or three chances to score or would get caught offside.

Thorpe was a lot more clinical with his chances and subtle with his movement and rarely got caught offside. Instinctive.

A few years later it was a real pleasure to watch Gerry Gow's testimonial to not only pay homage to the great man but also to see Thorpe's movement one last time and he didn't disappoint.

If you watch the You Tube video of City beating the sags 3:2 (granted, its a little old and grainy now) with Beadle Millen & Thorpe playing, you can pick out Thorpe's movement for his goal from Aaron Brown's run and cross. Absolutely brilliant.

Makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

I think Thorpe was the last player we had that I was utterly convinced would score every time he went through on goal. 

[Swede]

Wells has that instinct and more importantly  so does Afobe.

He may not be showing it at the moment because the lack of fitness from the serious injury is catching up with him but he has that movement.

[Swede]

2 minutes ago, sinenomine said:

I think Thorpe was the last player we had that I was utterly convinced would score every time he went through on goal. 

Yes; I would agree with that. He had a natural instinct. You can't coach that.

[Nibor]

5 minutes ago, Swede said:

Yes; I would agree with that. He had a natural instinct. You can't coach that.

I remember watching Taylor and Turner as a kid, perfect partnership.  One big ugly line leader to knock the shit out of defenders and cause problems and Taylor who could score from just about anywhere. 

Thorpe was great, Goater another who seemed to just materialise in the right place. 

Andy Cole for someone who scored so many goals in his career never convinced me he was a finisher, he seemed to need six chances to get one and got by largely on pace.

I think modern football over values work ethic and under values intelligent movement in general for strikers.  I don't want the main goalscorer running channels and helping out really. 

[REDOXO]

I agree with the thought that we (LJ) used Fam badly. He is not a natural target man but LJ INSISTED that he was. Hence we saw a lot of the poor side of his game. I think Holden will Play to his strengths not his weaknesses and try and turn him into something else!

[Lanterne Rouge]

15 minutes ago, sinenomine said:

I think Thorpe was the last player we had that I was utterly convinced would score every time he went through on goal. 

I agree - with the possible exception of Scott Murray during his wonder season.

[Sleepy1968]

6 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I agree - with the possible exception of Scott Murray during his wonder season.

Cut inside. Bang.

[TRL]

8 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I remember watching Taylor and Turner as a kid, perfect partnership.  One big ugly line leader to knock the shit out of defenders and cause problems and Taylor who could score from just about anywhere. 

Thorpe was great, Goater another who seemed to just materialise in the right place. 

Andy Cole for someone who scored so many goals in his career never convinced me he was a finisher, he seemed to need six chances to get one and got by largely on pace.

I think modern football over values work ethic and under values intelligent movement in general for strikers.  I don't want the main goalscorer running channels and helping out really. 

Is that Cole you saw play for us and Newcastle or the Cole who played for Man U? The bristol City Newcastle Andy Cole was lethal ice cold finisher. The Man Utd Andy Cole I am convinced did not concentrate so hard as he knew he would get loads of chances per game.

 

Cole for me was the most natural finisher I have seen at our Club. Taylor was great, but when his confidence went his whole game went not just his finishing.

 

The Goat is probably the most natural finisher in terms of it would go in if it was of his arse, elbow, knee, head foot,  but a lots of times it certainly didn't seem controlled.

 

Interestingly he only scored once for us but in terms of great forward play Robdrt Fleck is right up there with the best I have seen at AG

 

Tony Thorpe gets loads of plaudits as our 20 goal a season striker... thing is can't remember him getting 20 goals a season for us.  

[Lanterne Rouge]

Brett Pitman was another it`s just we didn`t use him correctly. It was shocking the way he was treated by City.

One of the best strikers of a ball I`ve seen at the club.

[Simon bristol]

Fam has an x factor too, hes now the closest weve got to mr bristol city, and is our leader and talisman. One if the main reasons we need him to stay

[AshtonRobin21]

Getting Fam re-signed to a new deal would be great business for the club. He offers 10-15 goals a season, alongside Wells (who should push for 15-20), that's a solid strike force for the club. In the current market we wouldn't be able to replace Fam's goals if he was sold.

I feel all we need in attack is a potential striker on loan, as an option from the Bench. Weimann is also a good option but is likely to used in various positions throughout the season.

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Brett Pitman was another it`s just we didn`t use him correctly. It was shocking the way he was treated by City.

One of the best strikers of a ball I`ve seen at the club.

Used to hit it early too, little back lift....before a keeper could set themselves or defender get a block.

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Agree, with sentiments.  Goal difference is a good marker too.  At the start of last season I said we needed to increase our GD by 10 (from +5).  It ended up 10 worse (-5)....so 20 worse than I thought it needed to be.  

I guess the simple thing to acknowledge is that they are different types of striker.

FWIW, from a team’s attacking ability, I think Afobe is better at some of the core things like touch, hiding the ball, rolling his marker, etc, a more intelligent striker who understands runs and teammates much more.

However I blame LJ’s system for not getting the best out of Diedhiou.  He can be effective.  Despite my criticism (and praise too), I’m really hoping he does extend his contract because:

• it’s less risky than trying to sign a striker with so called “guaranteed goals”.
• I saw some encouraging signs in his movement and link-up play under Holden that I’d not seen in ages under LJ

Finally, the Afobe I rate above was pre-injury.

The Afobe post-Covid was a shadow of the autumn Afobe we saw.  I wish him all the best, and will be interested to see if he can get back to that pre-injury level.

 

@Nibor our posts clashed....we are saying v.similar things.

Just one small point as a consideration?    Fam seems not as injury prone as Afobe, (I sincerely hope i am not tempting fate!).  I do  not have the stats, but Fam does not appear to have missed many games due to injury, whereas Afobe has had two major injury layoffs.  Is it fair to conclude, that Fam is more robust?  I hope so, as I really rate Fam, and believe he is very much underrated by the majority of City fans?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, maxjak said:

Just one small point as a consideration?    Fam seems not as injury prone as Afobe, (I sincerely hope i am not tempting fate!).  I do  not have the stats, but Fam does not appear to have missed many games due to injury, whereas Afobe has had two major injury layoffs.  Is it fair to conclude, that Fam is more robust?  I hope so, as I really rate Fam, and believe he is very much underrated by the majority of City fans?

Yep.  Fair point.

Afobe had gone 5/6 years since his previous ACL, but I obviously don’t know the injuries (minor) he’s suffered in between.

Fam has had just the one hasn’t he, the knee injury in his first season.  He is robust, no arguments there.

[Swede]

38 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Used to hit it early too, little back lift....before a keeper could set themselves or defender get a block.

There is no doubt Pittman was a goal scorer.

His problem time after time was that he'd come off the bench and score. Then start the next match and be anonymous and then get dropped again!

Now, it may be we didn't have the system for him or that he just didn't do enough off the ball. Who knows.

[Maltshoveller]

5 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Its amazing how people refuse to get this,

You want to win promotion you need to have the best defense, dont concede dont lose it really is as simple as that

You can get promoted only scoring 25 goals if you concede none 

You could also get relegated!!

25-nil win followed by 45  x nil nils  gives you 48 points

if Wigan didnt have their 12 points taken away 48 points would have sent you down

 

[RedorDead BCFC]

On 22/08/2020 at 21:34, Crackers Corner said:

Agreed he showed some brilliant touches and runs late in the season. Will be well chuffed if he signs.

Saw this quote, earlier and then watched dumb and dumber and dumb and dumber to. So thanks for making me laugh today 

[Olé]

How's your French? This was published a couple of days ago (although must have been recorded a few weeks ago as I guess it's in Sengal).

Talks about his time at Bristol City from 3:05 and progress over his three seasons. Seems to be something about failing in objective for this season, and I think at 5:10 he is talking about not being picked by the coach at the start of the season and winning back his place in the team by giving 100 200 300% for the team.

More interesting at 7:40 I think he's saying something along the lines about lots of people in Senegal expect him to be at a bigger club, and she then asks him about his four year contract and he says there are lots of rumours but he wants to stay in England where he is very settled, but his objective is the Premier League.

She asks about Fenerbache at 9:15. I think he says it is up to the club to accept an offer, and she then asks him what he wants, and he says he wants to stay in England. His comments from 10:00 sound like a very impassioned defence of he and his family being happy from 3 good years in England and wanting to stay put...

But my French isn't very good so maybe others can summarise better!

 

[Davefevs]

@Olé

Thanks for sharing / translating.  If you’ve done it correctly, then I really like the sound of Fam’s principles, and although ambitious, he appreciates what opportunity City have given him.  Fair play to him.

[Monkeh]

10 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

 

Thats not what I said though is it

[downendcity]

19 hours ago, JonDolman said:

If defensively we improve a lot yes. 

Fam scored one in two and Bobby 19 in Fam's first season. Yet we looked well short in the end. And actually looked worse with those two up top even though they scored goals.

Strikers win matches but defences win titles.