Famara

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

13 hours ago, downendcity said:

Famara is one of those players for whom  fans can readily identify all the things he can’t/doesn’t do, but perhaps don’t look at what he does do.

Famara is not a natural finisher/goalscorer but more a forward that scores goals - if that makes sense.  His goalscoring record at this level is pretty good, and especially so when you consider our playing style over the last couple of seasons. Wells is the more natural goalscorer and if FD had NW’s instinct for a chance in the box, then he would be a £20m+ player and playing at a higher level.

Perhaps FD does not have a fantastic first touch, but what he does have is tremendous physicality and , as I’ve mentioned before, I wouldn’t mind betting that opposition defenders will hate playing against him because he such an “awkward” player.

He’s also been asked to plough a pretty loan furrow for much of his time here, as LJ played him mostly as a loan striker. For all the things fans might say he can’t, do no one can fault his effort in maintaining this role, as it can be a thankless task, with a lot of running for often little reward.

He is the type of player that you really miss once he’s gone.

 

Will someone please explain to me what ‘a natural finisher/goal scorer’ is?  What distinguishes Famara from one of these ‘natural goalscorers’?

[JBFC II]

4 minutes ago, Yoyo2345 said:

I presume this is a pi$$ take. Get rid need better than him up front. 

Sometimes it's important to not just see a striker for their goals. He may not be the 20 goal striker fans want (not saying he can't be that with a full season under his belt either) but we certainly shouldn't be looking to 'get rid'. 

I think we'll miss him much more than we think we will if he does go, would be ecstatic to see us sign him up

[supercidered]

5 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Sometimes it's important to not just see a striker for their goals. He may not be the 20 goal striker fans want (not saying he can't be that with a full season under his belt either) but we certainly shouldn't be looking to 'get rid'. 

I think we'll miss him much more than we think we will if he does go, would be ecstatic to see us sign him up

Given the 10 posts from yoyo I get the distinct whiff of g@s.

In addition, there is no substance to the post, unlike your reply. Best to ignore and move on.

[JBFC II]

Just now, supercidered said:

Given the 10 posts from yoyo I get the distinct whiff of g@s.

In addition, there is no substance to the post, unlike your reply. Best to ignore and move on.

I like to give people a chance, we were all at 10 posts one day! 

A lack of substance to posts is becoming all the more regular now, not that that's a bad thing all the time though

[supercidered]

1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

I like to give people a chance, we were all at 10 posts one day! 

A lack of substance to posts is becoming all the more regular now, not that that's a bad thing all the time though

Fair enough but it just looks like a bait comment trying to get a reaction. I guess they succeeded. 

[ReggyRed]

1 hour ago, Yoyo2345 said:

I presume this is a pi$$ take. Get rid need better than him up front. 

It’s most definitely not. Should be one of the first names on the team-sheet for me.

[Northern Red]

1 hour ago, Yoyo2345 said:

I presume this is a pi$$ take. Get rid need better than him up front. 

Right. And how much do you think "better than him" would cost?

[Crackers Corner]

1 hour ago, Yoyo2345 said:

I presume this is a pi$$ take. Get rid need better than him up front. 

Who do you have in mind?

[Harry R]

If we can get 20 goals from Wells and 10-15 from Fam we will be in a great position.

Mad to expect us to have two 20 goal strikers.

[CliftonCliff]

3 minutes ago, Harry R said:

If we can get 20 goals from Wells and 10-15 from Fam we will be in a great position.

Mad to expect us to have two 20 goal strikers.

Yes. And perhaps it's worth reminding ourselves it's a team game and it does't matter where the goals come from - as long as they do come.

If my memory is correct, in the season before Reid, Bryan and Flint all left the club, those three between them scored 35 goals (something which those still preoccupied with retrospective analysis of LJ's City career might do well to remember). Perhaps an even better example would be Cott's double-winning side. I believe I am right in saying that every single outfield player scored at some point during that season.

Good, attack-minded sides contribute goals from all over. As long as Fam does his share of the work involved in creating scoring opportunities, which in my opinion he does without doubt, then for me the number the man himself scores is of secondary importance. I'm more interested in how Holden sets the team up and how Fam fits into that. There's a lot of bollocks talked about him on here by people who would dismiss his value to the team. He's an important player for us and would be a big miss - and hard to replace - if he left.  

[WirralRobin]

17 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Yes. And perhaps it's worth reminding ourselves it's a team game and it does't matter where the goals come from - as long as they do come.

If my memory is correct, in the season before Reid, Bryan and Flint all left the club, those three between them scored 35 goals (something which those still preoccupied with retrospective analysis of LJ's City career might do well to remember). Perhaps an even better example would be Cott's double-winning side. I believe I am right in saying that every single outfield player scored at some point during that season.

Good, attack-minded sides contribute goals from all over. As long as Fam does his share of the work involved in creating scoring opportunities, which in my opinion he does without doubt, then for me the number the man himself scores is of secondary importance. I'm more interested in how Holden sets the team up and how Fam fits into that. There's a lot of bollocks talked about him on here by people who would dismiss his value to the team. He's an important player for us and would be a big miss - and hard to replace - if he left.  

Really good post this. I'd add to this that the fantastic Leeds side from last season, who won the league at a canter and destroyed us home and away, had Bamford as top scorer with just 17 league goals and no one else in the squad hit 10 in the league all season!

Again highlighting the importance of a tight defence, the fact they only conceded 35 goals all season was absolutely key their success! 

[Lrrr]

I expect Wells/Weimann to be our 1st choice partnership, Holden has spoken about wanting to win the ball back quickly after losing possession Wells/Weimann makes more sense in that regard than Wells/Diedhiou. Wells has spoken about how he enjoys having Weimann upfront with him, Weimann's work rate and unselfishness allow Wells to play his natural game. As for defensive set pieces, would need to watch Wigan's but I wonder if Joe Williams can sit in that same position as Famara. The thing about Famara is that he changes the nature of a strike partnership so much away from the other combinations we have. I also feel players like Baker are more happy to just pump the ball forward when they see him so it also impacts the rest of our team play as well. 

Is he a quality striker? Yes, is he the right man to play upfront for us if the way Holden wants to play is to be believed? I'm not so sure. But a new contract (say 3 years) a decent season next season could see him sold next summer for good money and a good replacement to fit with the style of play signed as Weimann will have 12 months left (after extension activated) at that point.

[steviestevieneville]

15 hours ago, mozo said:

You don't think a player asks if they'll be a regular starter? Holden knows Fam inside out. He knows his game and how hard he will work. Fam has options elsewhere (probably safe to suppose), and Fam (his agent) can ask Holden "what are your plans for me this season? Let's remember that Wells is first choice. He'll have to perform but he's not scrapping for his place in the way that Semenyo is. So Diedhiou doesn't want to be appearing for 20 minute cameos and hoping Wells get injured. Not when another club is telling him he'll be their main man. For example "listen, Fenerbache want me to be the focal point of their attack, I can't stay here to be a squad player". If Holden reassures him that he sees him forging a great partnership with Wells, Fam might be more inclined to stay. Contrast that with the conversation with Marley Watkins - "look Marley, we can't promise you'll get minutes in our system, so you might be best off getting gametime elsewhere and we can all reassess in January". These conversations go on all the time. They happen at sunday league level, they happen at elite level. Do you think Messi worries about his place in the side? Do you think Willian would have moved to Arsenal if he thought he'd be used sparingly? I didn't mean that Fam would have a number of starts that the club would be committed to playing him. Just that he wants to know if he's a main man, or just a one of many.

No manager can guarantee minutes . I stopped reading after your first sentence . Chatting shit tbh . Nothing personal

[Nibor]

12 hours ago, supercidered said:

So we are a promotion chasing side? Doesn’t look that way as things stand. As we are in the position we are in. The best we can hope for is Fam to stay. Please tell me who we are going to get that is any better than him for whatever he may be sold for? That is even if any transfer fee is used to buy any replacement!

Of course we're supposed to be a promotion chasing side, the chairman and CEO have both said so and sacked LJ for not getting near enough.

If we can get £5-6m for Fam rather than lose him for nothing next season I think we could replace him with either a better centre forward if we're playing one up, or a better partner for Wells if we're not.

Afobe was IMO better at both and was available for less (even prior to his injury) for example so there are players out there.

 

[mozo]

12 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

No manager can guarantee minutes . I stopped reading after your first sentence . Chatting shit tbh . Nothing personal

Ignorance is bliss 

[Redstart]

1 minute ago, mozo said:

Ignorance is bliss 

Lot of blissful people on here at times

[Swede]

I do feel we are at a crossroads. Covid has confused the situation somewhat but if we are to progress to that next level it's clever players or game changers we need and that is players like Walsh Palmer Wells and Afobe.

As much as I like Eliasson and Diedhiou (and they were stand out players for me last season) we need more fluidity up front.

Afobe is very adaptable and can play in a number of roles. Clearly he is a step up and barring injury would be a terrific signing.

In an ideal world I would love us to still have all three but that won't happen.

Just my view of course but I saw glimpses of that early on last season and I believe THAT is the way forward.

 

[David Brent]

3 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Will someone please explain to me what ‘a natural finisher/goal scorer’ is?  What distinguishes Famara from one of these ‘natural goalscorers’?

Someone you know is going to score when one on one with the keeper. 
 

Fam isn’t...but I love him

[Lrrr]

10 minutes ago, Swede said:

Afobe is very adaptable and can play in a number of roles. Clearly he is a step up and barring injury would be a terrific signing.

To be honest I wouldn’t want afobe back, said it a lot after the return both he and Wells are alpha strikers ie they take the shots and are the main men, neither would often look to set up the other, both had plenty of chances but would look to make a chance for themselves. You need someone like Weimann or similar whose willing to be the second striker and create and then take their chances when they’re on. 

[ReggyRed]

38 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

To be honest I wouldn’t want afobe back, said it a lot after the return both he and Wells are alpha strikers ie they take the shots and are the main men, neither would often look to set up the other, both had plenty of chances but would look to make a chance for themselves. You need someone like Weimann or similar whose willing to be the second striker and create and then take their chances when they’re on. 

Already being slated by Stoke fans this season.

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, WirralRobin said:

Really good post this. I'd add to this that the fantastic Leeds side from last season, who won the league at a canter and destroyed us home and away, had Bamford as top scorer with just 17 league goals and no one else in the squad hit 10 in the league all season!

Again highlighting the importance of a tight defence, the fact they only conceded 35 goals all season was absolutely key their success! 

Its amazing how people refuse to get this,

You want to win promotion you need to have the best defense, dont concede dont lose it really is as simple as that

You can get promoted only scoring 25 goals if you concede none 

[Monkeh]

2 hours ago, Nibor said:

Of course we're supposed to be a promotion chasing side, the chairman and CEO have both said so and sacked LJ for not getting near enough.

If we can get £5-6m for Fam rather than lose him for nothing next season I think we could replace him with either a better centre forward if we're playing one up, or a better partner for Wells if we're not.

Afobe was IMO better at both and was available for less (even prior to his injury) for example so there are players out there.

 

no he really wasn't better fam over afobe every day of the week

[collier]

3 hours ago, Nibor said:

Afobe was IMO better at both and was available for less (even prior to his injury) for example so there are players out there.

 

Rose tinted glasses. How is Afobe better again? He did a bit at the start of the season and then got injured. Did nothing when he came back and then went back to his club. Ffs people act like he was the second coming of Christ. Fam is better, scores more goals, defends better, holds the ball up better.........he's just better and people won't agree because of their rose tinted glasses.

[collier]

3 hours ago, David Brent said:

Someone you know is going to score when one on one with the keeper. 
 

Fam isn’t...but I love him

You mean 50 million pound players who are playing in the top league's also players who miss their fair share of chances too. Fact is someone who you know will score everytime he is through do not exist. If they did they would not be playing for us and would cost considerably more than 5 million.

[Nibor]

10 minutes ago, collier said:

Rose tinted glasses. How is Afobe better again? He did a bit at the start of the season and then got injured. Did nothing when he came back and then went back to his club. Ffs people act like he was the second coming of Christ. Fam is better, scores more goals, defends better, holds the ball up better.........he's just better and people won't agree because of their rose tinted glasses.

I think it's you with the rose tinted glasses.  Afobe's ability on the ball and movement was far better, Fam is strong but his close control is weak and defenders can target it.  He's a good defender but he doesn't score or create more goals than Afobe.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

10 minutes ago, collier said:

You mean 50 million pound players who are playing in the top league's also players who miss their fair share of chances too. Fact is someone who you know will score everytime he is through do not exist. If they did they would not be playing for us and would cost considerably more than 5 million.

Don’t see what’s ‘natural’ about it.  Just seems like a lazy description of a striker who’s better (or luckier) than most.  Fam is a very good centre forward and as ‘natural’ a goal scorer as anyone else.

[CliftonCliff]

As far as the Fam v Afobe comparison goes, there was not a great deal on which to base a reliable judgement, simply because Afobe played so few games due to injury.

On the limited evidence available, the inconvenient truth, which does not fit some agendas, is that neither one is demonstrably better than the other. They are merely different, with contrasting styles. Who is "better" depends entirely on what type of player you require to suit the way you want your team to play.

And frankly, that's all there is to it. Futile argument.   

[collier]

19 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I think it's you with the rose tinted glasses.  Afobe's ability on the ball and movement was far better, Fam is strong but his close control is weak and defenders can target it.  He's a good defender but he doesn't score or create more goals than Afobe.

 Afobe goals 68 app 273

 

 fam  goals 98 app 282

 

Both career club stats..........so 1 in 4 for Afobe and 1 in 2.8 for Fam. Yep scores loads more does Afobe.

[Nibor]

10 minutes ago, collier said:

 Afobe goals 68 app 273

 

 fam  goals 98 app 282

 

Both career club stats..........so 1 in 4 for Afobe and 1 in 2.8 for Fam. Yep scores loads more does Afobe.

It's not really a great comparison though because you're including three or four seasons of Premiership football for Afobe and a whole load of sub appearances - and seven seasons of French league two and below for Fam with very few sub appearances.  Their actual goals per starts in the championship are about equal and Afobe is more creative.

But my argument isn't about stats, it's about what you see when you watch them.  Fam is strong, and jumps well.  He can hit a ball and wants to be getting on the end of stuff inside the box.  He defends well.  We use him badly as a target man and he lacks the control to do that effectively, heading the ball quite inaccurately and losing it too much.  He'd be far better playing off a target man than being on his own which we have never seemed prepared to do.

Afobe had far better movement, control and passing and was at least as strong, IMO he was better suited to playing on his own than Fam as he coped better with isolation - but the biggest difference for me was movement.  He was going into gaps and making passes look good, something Fam has never done - and as a result we were albeit briefly playing with the ball on the floor.  Injury aside I'd have happily traded Fam for Adobe on what we saw.

 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, Monkeh said:

Its amazing how people refuse to get this,

You want to win promotion you need to have the best defense, dont concede dont lose it really is as simple as that

You can get promoted only scoring 25 goals if you concede none 

Agree, with sentiments.  Goal difference is a good marker too.  At the start of last season I said we needed to increase our GD by 10 (from +5).  It ended up 10 worse (-5)....so 20 worse than I thought it needed to be.  

46 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I think it's you with the rose tinted glasses.  Afobe's ability on the ball and movement was far better, Fam is strong but his close control is weak and defenders can target it.  He's a good defender but he doesn't score or create more goals than Afobe.

I guess the simple thing to acknowledge is that they are different types of striker.

FWIW, from a team’s attacking ability, I think Afobe is better at some of the core things like touch, hiding the ball, rolling his marker, etc, a more intelligent striker who understands runs and teammates much more.

However I blame LJ’s system for not getting the best out of Diedhiou.  He can be effective.  Despite my criticism (and praise too), I’m really hoping he does extend his contract because:

• it’s less risky than trying to sign a striker with so called “guaranteed goals”.
• I saw some encouraging signs in his movement and link-up play under Holden that I’d not seen in ages under LJ

Finally, the Afobe I rate above was pre-injury.

The Afobe post-Covid was a shadow of the autumn Afobe we saw.  I wish him all the best, and will be interested to see if he can get back to that pre-injury level.

 

@Nibor our posts clashed....we are saying v.similar things.