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Pato v KP


redpole

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I rate them all.

IMO Pato was a more consistent option than Tomlin ever was. A very clever player.

COD has so many attributes going forward.

KP45 has a speed of thought and an eye for a pass that sets him apart from many players.

All of these players have a part to play in what will be a demanding season mid and post covid with the amount of games over a short period.

The conundrum is the same as its always been and a true measure of our Head Coach to get the best out of these players through coaching on the pitch and managing off the pitch to get the right combinations and team out for every match.

It ultimately cost the last one his job.

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1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

From the few times I've seen O'Dowda at wing back I prefer him to Rowe, I know not many will agree with me but that's how I see it!

O'Dowda got far more mobility which is so important for a wing back. Had a very hard game away at Wolves in their promotion season where I think in the first half it was he got moved to right wing back. But he did well up against Jota I think? Bloody tough for someone who I am not sure had even played there before that game.

At home to wolves in Fa cup again did well. And even played at left back against Boro I think and looked far more assured than Rowe who had been targeted before that. As soon as O'Dowda went to left back they kept targeting the other side of the pitch. O'Dowda funnily enough set up Rowe by getting past his man and crossing for Rowe who had been moved into central midfield.

I would like to see more of O'Dowda at wing back before knowing for sure. Even WBA away he wasn't exactly bad considering how awful we were as a team. The main problems for us seemed mainly to be on the other side of the pitch. He got injured first half but to be fair it seems to suit him having that space to charge into from a deeper position to what he would be when he's on the wing.

 

For people who don't get it. Having a different opinion is fine, but back it up with sense like this post. show your working. You want a guy with more mobility (raw speed/athleticism) fine. I want a guy with more production at (I assume) less cost in a back up player. I want someone who's played the position and has much more experience in that role. I think Rowe can be targeted athletically (like Hunt on the other side) but Callum can be targeted through a lack of desire to tackle and positional awareness through inexperience.

There isn't that much tape on O'Dowda at full back, whereas I'll point to the entire run of Rowe covering for Jay Dasilva this season as evidence that he's a perfectly competent back up in that role.

Any situation where you look at CODs physical ability and potential I think is a trap. That's his entire career so far. Athleticism and potential with little production IMO.

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It's harsh on Palmer given his limited chances but I'd have to choose Pato at the moment, simply because he has shown what he can do.

At the moment, both COD and Palmer are players who I far prefer as concepts than I do as actual footballers. Their attributes are theoretically good, we can talk about what they "might" do given the chance and both of them are players you'd quite like to have in a City team on FIFA or Football Manager due to their theoretical attributes and their potential but both of them need to show they can do it on the pitch - especially O'Dowda as he has had far more chances.

If he can reproduce the form he briefly showed in 17/18 across an entire season, he would be an asset to our team. But that "if" is currently a massive one. Ditto Palmer has shown what he can do in brief moments, occasional touches and short runs of matches but he needs to make it impossible for Holden to leave him out. At the moment, both look a lot like unfulfilled potential.

Pato isn't exactly immune from this rant either. Great for a few games at the end of the season but he needs to show he isn't going to drift back into anonymity gain. At this moment in time, none of them would be in my first choice XI for the season. 

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1 hour ago, WirralRobin said:

Agree, important to remember Nakhi and Kasey linked up well together in the 2016/2017 promotion winning Huddersfield side. Nakhi even mentioned looking forward to playing with Kasey again in his interview on joining us, yet how many mins have they played together since? Next to none in we discount 5/10 mins here and there chasing games against low block defences which doesn't suit either's games. Would be a real shame imo if Palmer leaves this summer. I think he has much to offer us this season.

 realised they’d played together at Huddersfield, so sounds a good shout then.

I hadn’t realised he’d played with Nakhi at Huddersfield, so a great shout in that case.

I really hope we can get something out of him this year, ss he’s clearly got talent and it makes you wonder what he would have done if he’d been here in our high tempo purple patch in late ‘17.

It’s possible we could be looking towards playing a similar style again, so it could be really exciting to see what he could do with that fast playing style and Nakhi’s mobility and pace.  KP was never going to shine in the ponderous, slow build up’s we had under LJ in the last couple of years.

Could we dare to think that NW could be the new Bobby Reid, but with potentially a better supply of through balls than BR had?

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2 hours ago, WirralRobin said:

Agree, important to remember Nakhi and Kasey linked up well together in the 2016/2017 promotion winning Huddersfield side. Nakhi even mentioned looking forward to playing with Kasey again in his interview on joining us, yet how many mins have they played together since? Next to none in we discount 5/10 mins here and there chasing games against low block defences which doesn't suit either's games. Would be a real shame imo if Palmer leaves this summer. I think he has much to offer us this season.

Not a single Wells goal in that season came from a Palmer assist..

Dean Holden & Jamie Paterson played in the same side once, that doesn’t mean anything, either.

Paterson is twice the player for me, far more likely scorer, two footed and although inconsistent can play in a variety of positions.

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5 minutes ago, BrizzleRed said:

I hadn’t realised he’d played with Nakhi at Huddersfield, so a great shout in that case.

I really hope we can get something out of him this year, ss he’s clearly got talent and it makes you wonder what he would have done if he’d been here in our high tempo purple patch in late ‘17.

It’s possible we could be looking towards playing a similar style again, so it could be really exciting to see what he could do with that fast playing style and Nakhi’s mobility and pace.  KP was never going to shine in the ponderous, slow build up’s we had under LJ in the last couple of years.

Could we dare to think that NW could be the new Bobby Reid, but with potentially a better supply of through balls than BR had?

Good points raised again.

Yeah they played together a lot that season before Kasey got injured mid way through the season keeping him out until the play-off final.

I remember them getting lot's of plaudits for playing good high press, attacking football that season where they'd mostly set up in an attacking 4-2-3-1 formation with Kasey behind Nakhi in the 10 position, with the likes of Kachunga and Van le Parre on the wings and Aaron Mooy pulling the strings in centre midfield. I think if Kasey was to get a run of games in the side this season he'd definitely benefit from having ball players in behind him such as Williams and Walsh and potentially even a pre-injury level Nagy who can move the ball to him quicker/in better areas giving him more of a chance to be at his creative best as Mooy did in that Huddersfield team. Having the likes of Taylor Moore bringing the ball out from the back and being an accurate passer may help with this too?

 

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3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Not a single Wells goal in that season came from a Palmer assist..

Dean Holden & Jamie Paterson played in the same side once, that doesn’t mean anything, either.

Paterson is twice the player for me, far more likely scorer, two footed and although inconsistent can play in a variety of positions.

Not doubting Paterson's qualities, I love him as a player and wouldn't want to lose him I just think some write off Palmer before he's been given proper opportunities in a system that works for him and I think he could be a valuable player in this 3-5-2 system as the more advanced of 3 centre mids.

Decent point re-Holden & Paterson but the point I was making was if Palmer and Nakhi have previously played together in a successful attacking, promotion winning side that favoured the high press (something many want to replicate here), then that is something to add to the debate especially as I see many on here stating they don't think Palmer has the mobility/desire etc to play in a high pressing side.    

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36 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

It's harsh on Palmer given his limited chances but I'd have to choose Pato at the moment, simply because he has shown what he can do.

At the moment, both COD and Palmer are players who I far prefer as concepts than I do as actual footballers. Their attributes are theoretically good, we can talk about what they "might" do given the chance and both of them are players you'd quite like to have in a City team on FIFA or Football Manager due to their theoretical attributes and their potential but both of them need to show they can do it on the pitch - especially O'Dowda as he has had far more chances.

If he can reproduce the form he briefly showed in 17/18 across an entire season, he would be an asset to our team. But that "if" is currently a massive one. Ditto Palmer has shown what he can do in brief moments, occasional touches and short runs of matches but he needs to make it impossible for Holden to leave him out. At the moment, both look a lot like unfulfilled potential.

Pato isn't exactly immune from this rant either. Great for a few games at the end of the season but he needs to show he isn't going to drift back into anonymity gain. At this moment in time, none of them would be in my first choice XI for the season. 

It appears that this spell was really the exception to the norm....the vast majority of the other 100+ appearances have been average at best.  I can’t go on hoping a player like O’Dowda will come good, when in 4 seasons here the evidence says not.  That’s in his his favourite position on the wing, and in a midfield 3, where many posters were convinced of being his best position (from a few international appearances), plus a bit of filling in at wingback.  He has failed to take countless opportunities given to him.

44 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

But to me O'Dowda has not played badly at wing back so far, so hard for me to really say anything bad about him there.

Rowe I feel was targeted in a number of games at left back or at wing back. QPR for example where they just kept targeting him and taking him on with ease.

Going forward he doesn't really do enough either as he stays back too much, probably because a bit like Pisano he would not have the legs to get back on a break.

That can be okay, but when all our attacks go down one side because Rowe is not getting forward on the other side, then it is a problem. Barnsley away for example, we just kept going down one side with Weimann running wide right linking with Hunt. Eliasson then went to wing back mid way through the first half and we then had balance as we attacked down the left a lot more and Watkins actually got the ball out that side that won us the free kick for the goal.

O'Dowda is one of our hardest working players. But is not one that crunches into players. But we have quite a few others like that too. He is at least got a bit of strength which means he is not bullied, and puts in a lot of sprints over 90 minutes with good pace and energy to get up and down the line.

But you know my view on Rowe at wing back! Prefer him centrally, but can't see how he fits in there in midfield with what we have.

What is the evidence for hard working and strength?  I certainly don’t expect him to crunch into tackles, I expect him to get close enough to his man, to effect what that opponent does.  He doesn’t press the man with any purpose, often far too reactive that he engages too late, has already lost a half yard and gives away petty fouls. These aren’t tactical fouls, these are because his position is all wrong.  He fails to use his arms and torso to make life difficult.  Much more to defending that crunching into tackles.  Bullied is exactly what he gets.  Watch how other players pressure their opponent in the way they close down their man.  It’s with purpose, they cause mis-controls, they pinch the ball, without needing to crunch.

And we haven’t really talked about him with the ball, where he plays with his head down.  It’s the first thing I look for in a player.  Do they know what’s going on around them (a picture of the game / awareness) and can they dribble with their head up.  The answer to both of those are no.  Big flaws for a player of his type.  Brownhill was one who improved that aspect of his game in his 3 1/2 years here.  It is no surprise he actually made the move upwards.

Its a shame.  I never want to be so critical of any City player, I want them all to do well, and I try to retain balance in all my views, but I genuinely cannot do that with O’Dowda.  The stupid thing about it, is there is probably talent in there....I certainly don’t think he is crap....but nor can I sit and judge his performances that appear half-hearted without criticism.  It’s down to him to show that talent, but I do think the desire isn’t there.  

11 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Not a single Wells goal in that season came from a Palmer assist..

Dean Holden & Jamie Paterson played in the same side once, that doesn’t mean anything, either.

Paterson is twice the player for me, far more likely scorer, two footed and although inconsistent can play in a variety of positions.

Wells assisted him though ???

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A good thread. Although its asking about KP v JP I’d like to widen it to consider the batch of players (10 I think at present) we have for the midfield.

So as well as KP and JP that is: Joe W, Han-Noah M, Callum O’D, Joe M, L Walsh, Adam N, Tommy R (given his versatility) and Sam S, (have I forgotten anyone?)

in terms of creativity - KP and JP stand out

in terms of defensive duties - not sure anybody stands out, although hopefully JW will

in terms of currently (or having) showed all round midfield attributes - I’d go with AN (when he’s really on it) 

Looks likely we will play with five in the middle, so there are plenty of permutations available and given the style of play that’s being hinted at rotation, suspensions and injuries will play a big part.

So I’d go for JW, JP or KP and AN as my preferred base with the freedom to select from the rest based on form, tactics, availability and the opponents.

I haven’t seen much of Joe M or Liam W recently, so one or both could be about to establish themselves. 

Be interested to hear what others think.

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We are probably going to have to let at least one of them (Pato, Palmer and/or O’Dowda) go, but I’d like to see how they would perform in an attacking setup. O’Dowda had a poor season, but we’ve seen how he CAN play - same with the others. Most of the season they played under LJs ‘defensive’ setup and it looked like they weren’t encouraged to get forward and ‘have a go’. Maybe we’d see different players in all 3 under a Holden attacking formation????

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36 minutes ago, WirralRobin said:

Good points raised again.

Yeah they played together a lot that season before Kasey got injured mid way through the season keeping him out until the play-off final.

I remember them getting lot's of plaudits for playing good high press, attacking football that season where they'd mostly set up in an attacking 4-2-3-1 formation with Kasey behind Nakhi in the 10 position, with the likes of Kachunga and Van le Parre on the wings and Aaron Mooy pulling the strings in centre midfield. I think if Kasey was to get a run of games in the side this season he'd definitely benefit from having ball players in behind him such as Williams and Walsh and potentially even a pre-injury level Nagy who can move the ball to him quicker/in better areas giving him more of a chance to be at his creative best as Mooy did in that Huddersfield team. Having the likes of Taylor Moore bringing the ball out from the back and being an accurate passer may help with this too?

 

Some very positve points there WR and I’m actually starting to look forward to the new season a bit now, after the original disappointment of how the head coach appointment panned out.

Let’s hope Deano can get us playing the brand of footbal he’s been alluding to and maybe next season won’t be so bad after all. 

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Fair enough. We can't all agree. I prefer O'Dowda's attributes which I believe actually suit him to be a wing back. But he hasn't played there much so will have to see for sure whether I'm right or wrong on that one.

He can’t defend and is weak mentally going forward . He needs to be off the wage bill ASAP 

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As far as midfielders are concerned LJ had more clubs in the bag than he knew what to do with and with changing personnel, formations and playing style always seemed to be hoping to find the combination that would work, more by trial and error than design.

Hopefully Holden will have a much clearer plan, in terms of ideal formation and playing style, which in turn will help him determine the players that are the best fit. On that basis it might well be that Patterson is the best fit and KP is not, or visa versa, but it does not mean either is a poor player. 

I've always hoped that we would get the best out of Palmer, as he offers  something that no other player can. He has pace and power to break lines and can pick a pass, but a “flair” player like this  I don't think fitted with LJ’s model of players following instructions to the letter and working hard but not necessarily providing much end product. Will Holden adopt a more progressive playing style where someone like Palmer could thrive?

Whatever, I think there is a consensus that we are overloaded with midfielders, and too many are much the same, so I think there has to be some trimming of the squad in this area.

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38 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Pato is more reliable.

KP is either brilliant (not often) or awful and constantly losing the ball.

I fear KP is going to be another JET. Just does not have the engine or work ethic to make the most of his talent 

That was often levelled at Hoddle as the reason for him not earning more England caps.  Platini said that had Hoddle been French he would have won 150 caps and they would have built the team around him.

Not suggesting we build the team around KP, but do we want a team of workmanlike players performing as LJ’s team did? For those that say that accommodating someone like KP and playing with more flair would make us defensively maker, just look at last season’s defensive record!

 

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Everyone on here is making judgements on players based on the history of them playing under the Johnson management. 

We all know that some players had their natural ability stifled under Lee and never had a chance to show their true worth.

Under Holden and the new coaches, we may well see a different team selection, set up, tactics and strategy which could show players in a completely different light. 

Before writing anyone off, let's wait and see.

 

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Personally, I’d keep KP and Szmodics. 

Paterson is top drawer on his day, but his day comes around three or four times a season and he’s a passenger at most other times. He’s in the last year of his contract and I’d look to sell this summer. The same goes for Weimann. 

I’d be looking to offload COD as well, but think we’d struggle to get him off the books as he has three years left on his deal.

There should be question marks over Baker as well, given his injury record. I’m a big fan of his when he’s on the pitch, it’s just that’s not very often. 

I’m on the fence with Vyner, but Moore is/should be ahead of him in the pecking order. 

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3 hours ago, Prinny said:

For people who don't get it. Having a different opinion is fine, but back it up with sense like this post. show your working. You want a guy with more mobility (raw speed/athleticism) fine. I want a guy with more production at (I assume) less cost in a back up player. I want someone who's played the position and has much more experience in that role. I think Rowe can be targeted athletically (like Hunt on the other side) but Callum can be targeted through a lack of desire to tackle and positional awareness through inexperience.

There isn't that much tape on O'Dowda at full back, whereas I'll point to the entire run of Rowe covering for Jay Dasilva this season as evidence that he's a perfectly competent back up in that role.

Any situation where you look at CODs physical ability and potential I think is a trap. That's his entire career so far. Athleticism and potential with little production IMO.

At the risk of maybe being a bit harsh on Rowe, I can't help feeling the fact there is a debate over which midfielder we most want to deputise at wing back shows a massive weakness in the team, if the club are serious about pushing for promotion. Rowe is, as you say, "perfectly competent back up" but the aim surely has to be genuine competition in each position. The first season Dasilva was here, he was up against Kelly for the left-back role and it got the most out of them. And, whilst Hunt has his limitations, I think having Pereira pushing him for his slot helped him last season. If we are playing 3-5-2, and it looks like we are, the wing-backs are crucial to making that system work and, due to the amount of running they are expected to do during a game, and the number of midweek games coming up this season, there is a strong argument we need two quality options in each position.  

I get that the financial situation post-COVID may mean the money is not there to strengthen everywhere we want next season, and that might mean we have to narrow our horizons compared to what we would have otherwise wanted and I understand that if it is the case, but if so I think there is a real risk that a lack of quality wing-back competition will cost us this season in three different ways:

1) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) not being pushed hard enough for his position and not excelling as a result

2) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) getting injuries through being over-used due to the fact they are clearly the strongest players in their position by a considerable margin

3) A lack of quality options if and when Dasilva (and possibly Hunt)are unavailable.

Rowe covered admirably last season and maybe @JonDolman is right and O'Dowda could play there but I can't help thinking that, if we end up without two natural wing-backs on each side who can make a serious case for selection, it is going to bite us on the arse come the end of the season. 

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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

That was often levelled at Hoddle as the reason for him not earning more England caps.  Platini said that had Hoddle been French he would have won 150 caps and they would have built the team around him.

Not suggesting we build the team around KP, but do we want a team of workmanlike players performing as LJ’s team did? For those that say that accommodating someone like KP and playing with more flair would make us defensively maker, just look at last season’s defensive record!

 

As it was with Matt Le Tissier and many others going back to Tony Currie, Stan Bowles, Rodney Marsh and Frank Worthington.

It was ever thus.

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2 hours ago, Jerseybean said:

A good thread. Although its asking about KP v JP I’d like to widen it to consider the batch of players (10 I think at present) we have for the midfield.

So as well as KP and JP that is: Joe W, Han-Noah M, Callum O’D, Joe M, L Walsh, Adam N, Tommy R (given his versatility) and Sam S, (have I forgotten anyone?)

in terms of creativity - KP and JP stand out

in terms of defensive duties - not sure anybody stands out, although hopefully JW will

in terms of currently (or having) showed all round midfield attributes - I’d go with AN (when he’s really on it) 

Looks likely we will play with five in the middle, so there are plenty of permutations available and given the style of play that’s being hinted at rotation, suspensions and injuries will play a big part.

So I’d go for JW, JP or KP and AN as my preferred base with the freedom to select from the rest based on form, tactics, availability and the opponents.

I haven’t seen much of Joe M or Liam W recently, so one or both could be about to establish themselves. 

Be interested to hear what others think.

Just checking whether you realise the “five in the middle” includes 2 wingbacks....so in effect there’s only 3 slots available?

28 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

At the risk of maybe being a bit harsh on Rowe, I can't help feeling the fact there is a debate over which midfielder we most want to deputise at wing back shows a massive weakness in the team, if the club are serious about pushing for promotion. Rowe is, as you say, "perfectly competent back up" but the aim surely has to be genuine competition in each position. The first season Dasilva was here, he was up against Kelly for the left-back role and it got the most out of them. And, whilst Hunt has his limitations, I think having Pereira pushing him for his slot helped him last season. If we are playing 3-5-2, and it looks like we are, the wing-backs are crucial to making that system work and, due to the amount of running they are expected to do during a game, and the number of midweek games coming up this season, there is a strong argument we need two quality options in each position.  

I get that the financial situation post-COVID may mean the money is not there to strengthen everywhere we want next season, and that might mean we have to narrow our horizons compared to what we would have otherwise wanted and I understand that if it is the case, but if so I think there is a real risk that a lack of quality wing-back competition will cost us this season in three different ways:

1) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) not being pushed hard enough for his position and not excelling as a result

2) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) getting injuries through being over-used due to the fact they are clearly the strongest players in their position by a considerable margin

3) A lack of quality options if and when Dasilva (and possibly Hunt)are unavailable.

Rowe covered admirably last season and maybe @JonDolman is right and O'Dowda could play there but I can't help thinking that, if we end up without two natural wing-backs on each side who can make a serious case for selection, it is going to bite us on the arse come the end of the season. 

Bold statements ⬆️⬆️⬆️ that’s the dilemma isn’t it.  We’ve been left with an unbalanced squad, but that’s what you get when the previous head-coach was allowed to recruit in that way.

I think we may we’ll get another RWB in, but I think we will be happy with Rowe at LWB.  He did better than “just provide cover” last season imho, he was more than comfortable in both aspects required of a wingback.  He’s always been a very technically capable player.  Any wingback / fullback will look poor if isolated against overloads or one on one with a tricky winger.  That’s the net effect of not being effective as a team unit, rather than of the player himself.

RWB is a decision as to whether Vyner can cover or not.  I would suggest that expecting Vyner to cover both RWB and RCB is stretching us a bit thin.  Ideally I’d like at least one in.

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2 hours ago, Riaz said:

Pato is more reliable.

KP is either brilliant (not often) or awful and constantly losing the ball.

I fear KP is going to be another JET. Just does not have the engine or work ethic to make the most of his talent 

Totally agree about Pato.

KP - so how come Lee didn't play him then DH didn't play him?

I wouldn't be as bold to say he was awful .

 

Actually yes I would. KP is awful and now I've said it.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Just checking whether you realise the “five in the middle” includes 2 wingbacks....so in effect there’s only 3 slots available?

Bold statements ⬆️⬆️⬆️ that’s the dilemma isn’t it.  We’ve been left with an unbalanced squad, but that’s what you get when the previous head-coach was allowed to recruit in that way.

I think we may we’ll get another RWB in, but I think we will be happy with Rowe at LWB.  He did better than “just provide cover” last season imho, he was more than comfortable in both aspects required of a wingback.  He’s always been a very technically capable player.  Any wingback / fullback will look poor if isolated against overloads or one on one with a tricky winger.  That’s the net effect of not being effective as a team unit, rather than of the player himself.

RWB is a decision as to whether Vyner can cover or not.  I would suggest that expecting Vyner to cover both RWB and RCB is stretching us a bit thin.  Ideally I’d like at least one in.

All of this is fair and, with the situation being as it is, I think Rowe will be the back up LWB and I think that is okay.

In an ideal world, it would be one of five signings (RWB, two CBS and a striker being the others) I would still want to make but we are not in an ideal world and I certainly think upgrading on Rowe would be the fifth on the list of those priorities. I reckon we will get a RWB, CB and a striker and that will be fine if we are luckier with injuries than previous seasons.

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I'd have Pato ahead of Palmer everytime. He has proved he can do it at this level. People see the potential in Palmer but at the moment that is all it is. I'd like to be proven wrong but I can't see him being consistent enough over 10-20 games let alone a season. My fear for Palmer is he doesn't seem hungry enough to really establish himself.

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58 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

All of this is fair and, with the situation being as it is, I think Rowe will be the back up LWB and I think that is okay.

In an ideal world, it would be one of five signings (RWB, two CBS and a striker being the others) I would still want to make but we are not in an ideal world and I certainly think upgrading on Rowe would be the fifth on the list of those priorities. I reckon we will get a RWB, CB and a striker and that will be fine if we are luckier with injuries than previous seasons.

I think you are right in terms of priority.

If Holden could sign players in a given order (realistically it doesn’t work like that), I’d want him to go:

  1. CB (left sided preferably)
  2. RWB
  3. Striker
  4. LWB
  5. CB

But 4 and 5 a bit of a luxury imho for this season.  It could be that Rowe is just waiting for Pring to be ready next season???

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2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

At the risk of maybe being a bit harsh on Rowe, I can't help feeling the fact there is a debate over which midfielder we most want to deputise at wing back shows a massive weakness in the team, if the club are serious about pushing for promotion. Rowe is, as you say, "perfectly competent back up" but the aim surely has to be genuine competition in each position. The first season Dasilva was here, he was up against Kelly for the left-back role and it got the most out of them. And, whilst Hunt has his limitations, I think having Pereira pushing him for his slot helped him last season. If we are playing 3-5-2, and it looks like we are, the wing-backs are crucial to making that system work and, due to the amount of running they are expected to do during a game, and the number of midweek games coming up this season, there is a strong argument we need two quality options in each position.  

I get that the financial situation post-COVID may mean the money is not there to strengthen everywhere we want next season, and that might mean we have to narrow our horizons compared to what we would have otherwise wanted and I understand that if it is the case, but if so I think there is a real risk that a lack of quality wing-back competition will cost us this season in three different ways:

1) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) not being pushed hard enough for his position and not excelling as a result

2) Dasilva (and possibly Hunt) getting injuries through being over-used due to the fact they are clearly the strongest players in their position by a considerable margin

3) A lack of quality options if and when Dasilva (and possibly Hunt)are unavailable.

Rowe covered admirably last season and maybe @JonDolman is right and O'Dowda could play there but I can't help thinking that, if we end up without two natural wing-backs on each side who can make a serious case for selection, it is going to bite us on the arse come the end of the season. 

Mm this is the perfectly reasonable debate about squad depth and quality. It doesn't go away around Covid though. Any time you have a budget (FFP) you have to make decisions of this nature. I agree with all three of your points but the counters would be

1) If you have two players of equal quality you'll change the team a lot based on marginal form leading to an unsettled side which could hurt the team more than a drop off in quality. If a player makes a mistake they'll be put out the team and this fear and competition could hurt their excellence.

2) You're damaging the development of a player by not playing them enough. Players need to play to get better. By splitting playing time too much an individual player misses out and is consequently worse and less experienced.

3) You're expending resources into players who are not playing. That lowers the quality of the best 11.

Why I come down on the side of having fewer but higher quality players is that we're not competing on an equal budgetary level. We're having to compete vs parachute payments. We need to be able to compete directly on the field against the top teams. Risking missing out through injury is a better gamble than missing out through quality. You can get lucky with injuries, but if your players are not good enough there's nowhere to go.

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10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But 4 and 5 a bit of a luxury imho for this season.  It could be that Rowe is just waiting for Pring to be ready next season???

Pring, Nurse, Soady, one of them, whoever!

Rowe made sense as a signing, short term and low cost (free + wages) as a back up player which like Gilmartin at GK allows our young players to go gain experience.

O'Dowda makes no sense. Whatever side of the debate you come down on as to who you think is better, alarm bells should be ringing that they're in the same conversation as a value proposition. 

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6 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Mm this is the perfectly reasonable debate about squad depth and quality. It doesn't go away around Covid though. Any time you have a budget (FFP) you have to make decisions of this nature. I agree with all three of your points but the counters would be

1) If you have two players of equal quality you'll change the team a lot based on marginal form leading to an unsettled side which could hurt the team more than a drop off in quality. If a player makes a mistake they'll be put out the team and this fear and competition could hurt their excellence.

I think that’s where I am with LWB.  Dasilva is the main man, Rowe as back-up.  Expectations of game time are different from each player.  On the transfer sub forum, some were suggesting getting Antonee Robinson from Wigan (gone to Fulham).  But managing 46 games at LWB for two of them is gonna be very difficult.  Dasilva gets 23, which is way less than he expects, and to get the quality of Robinson by offering him 23 games either.

2) You're damaging the development of a player by not playing them enough. Players need to play to get better. By splitting playing time too much an individual player misses out and is consequently worse and less experienced.

3) You're expending resources into players who are not playing. That lowers the quality of the best 11.

Yep, £2m for 23 games for Robinson would be a bit of a waste....as good a player as he is.

Why I come down on the side of having fewer but higher quality players is that we're not competing on an equal budgetary level. We're having to compete vs parachute payments. We need to be able to compete directly on the field against the top teams. Risking missing out through injury is a better gamble than missing out through quality. You can get lucky with injuries, but if your players are not good enough there's nowhere to go.

?????? Comments above ⬆️⬆️⬆️

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I'd keep both for now, but if it was a choice right now I'd go with Pato.  Given his form of late, I wouldn't let KP even shag my cat.

Bundles of energy, blessed with guile, and can work in a high press.  Can change games.

I really like Palmer, but up until now he hasn't done enough.  Sure, LJ hasn't played him but can only be a reflection of the work KP put in in training.  I wouldn't right h off though as I think he's class if we can play him in a system that suits him.    

As for CO'D, I still think there's a player in there.  My gut felling is he's almost a victim of LJs overcoaching.  He's a bright lad and his willingness to do what his manager has asked of him has overcomplicated things. He just needs to get back to doing what he does best - run with the ball, beat players, and get crosses in or shots away.  Given a freer role on the left of a front 3 I think he would be devastating if he regains his confidence.   He's quick, strong, and decent in the air.  There are strong arguments against CO'D which I'm sure are convincing, but despite everything, I still think he can do well for City.  

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9 minutes ago, Red Skin said:

Is keep both for now, but if it was a choice right now I'd go with Pato.

Bundles of energy, blessed with guile, and can work in a high press.  Can change games.

I really like Palmer, but up until now he hasn't done enough.  Sure, LJ hasn't played him but can only be a reflection of the work KP put in in training.  I wouldn't right h off though as I think he's class if we can play him in a system that suits him. 

As for CO'D, I still think there's a player in there.  My gut felling is he's almost a victim of LJs overcoaching.  He's a bright lad and his willingness to do what his manager has asked of him has overcomplicated things. He just needs to get back to doing what he does best - run with the ball, beat players, and get crosses in or shots away.  Given a freer role on the left of a front 3 I think he would be devastating if he regains his confidence.   He's quick, strong, and decent in the air.  There are strong arguments against CO'D which I'm sure are convincing, but despite everything, I still think he can do well for City.  

I agree re CO’D. I can remember when he first signed for us and that pace down the wings and the pin point crosses. Hopefully the new coaching team can ‘decoach’ him to enable him to play his natural game and get back the player we signed.

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