Pathway or One Loan Too Many?

[Garycpos]

11 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Thank you for the detailed response. Won't ask about the current transfer links of course!

Can I ask you if this is a fair set of statements? 

It's better for Jonny's career progression to play for Oldham than not play for Bristol City.

It's better for Jonny's career if he's not in the team if he's on loan or no one wants him on loan that he trains at the highest level possible.

It's better for Bristol City today to have Jonny Smith at the club so we can use the asset that we have.

It's better for Bristol City in the future to have Jonny go out on loan and play league football rather than not use him.

And this is just a information question but is he comfortable playing in that role behind two strikers which also includes doing some central midfield work that we seem to be using for Jamie Paterson? I feel from what I've seen his skill set fits there perfectly.

In relation to Point 1 the progression at Oldham was better suited simply because he was not ready for Championship but over qualified for U23. Personally I am an advocate for a reserve League rather than a U23 Team because I believe a reserve league learns you more.

Point 2 Yes, training with players at a higher level can only improve your learning & understanding

Point 3 Hard one that one, Depends .... certain players need to play , and please dont think wrongly of that answer, I purely mean that fast accleration players are like greyhounds they need constant work to be a threat so match fitness is in my opinion critical.

Point 4 I agree, to the right club as it benefits all 3 parties

He was used in that position a few times at Oldham and although he primarily was right or left wing a lot of goals came from the area you describe....

 

On a personal note I would obviously be the first at the turnstiles at Ashton Gate if he is on the Team Sheet ..... He has the ability to keep learning and growing....

[alexukhc]

30 minutes ago, Garycpos said:

In relation to Point 1 the progression at Oldham was better suited simply because he was not ready for Championship but over qualified for U23. Personally I am an advocate for a reserve League rather than a U23 Team because I believe a reserve league learns you more.

Point 2 Yes, training with players at a higher level can only improve your learning & understanding

Point 3 Hard one that one, Depends .... certain players need to play , and please dont think wrongly of that answer, I purely mean that fast accleration players are like greyhounds they need constant work to be a threat so match fitness is in my opinion critical.

Point 4 I agree, to the right club as it benefits all 3 parties

He was used in that position a few times at Oldham and although he primarily was right or left wing a lot of goals came from the area you describe....

 

On a personal note I would obviously be the first at the turnstiles at Ashton Gate if he is on the Team Sheet ..... He has the ability to keep learning and growing....

You’re such a humble guy, i know the bias he’s your son etc, in every word you write on this forum about him I really want your son to achieve great things in the game, but especially here at City 

[Davefevs]

Not sure if Tinnion read the article but he did tweet!!!

 

[cidered abroad]

Thanks @Davefevs for a very interesting look at how City are with youth players progress to adult status. It highlights, in my opinion, how this aspect has become little better than a cattle market.

For most of my life, clubs like City have run a youth development system. Bringing in a small number each year, a youth system based on under 18's, many were released at that age and the "cream" were the basis of the reserve team with half a dozen older ones who were out of favour at first team level.

These older ones helped the young ones in their own team and at the same time did their best to clog the opposition youngsters. Either way, they learned to cope and improve or failed and disappeared to non league part time.

The system had no sympathy for those who needed a bit longer to adapt to adult football. The best ones had one to three years with half a dozen starts in the first team. With none or one sub per team it meant that it was start or not. By 21, it was first team regular or released. Cruel for some but the club had brought at least one youngster per season. Occasionally, a bonus year or two with two/three per season.

A pathway of sorts.

Now clubs have dozens on the books from very young ages. All striving for the breakthrough to first team status. But for every manager like Dicks, Ferguson, Greenwood there are many who pay lip service to youth but don't play them. Buying marginally older players to block the pathway. Now we also buy promising youngsters from lower leagues at 16/17 years. 

City last season had around forty pro's on the books, loaning out complete teams of young ones. We kept one back to sit on the bench to comply with the farcical rule about " one homegrown talent in the matchday squad". If the EFL believe that will encourage clubs to give youth a chance, they are sadly mistaken.

Maybe Holden will follow Dicks instead of Johnson? I want to believe he will. I want to believe that we will win promotion with a home grown team like AD did. But to do that we have to use them, not loan them.

 

[Middlesbrough Robin]

Great article @Davefevs. So refreshing to read such a well researched informative article in the press. Between your analysis and @Olé's match reports there is rarely any need to read far beyond OTIB.

I still think that the loan system needs a review. The half/full season loan option has just resulted in clubs having to bring in additional numbers to the squad to cover suspensions/injuries, which then blocks the pathway for the younger players when they return from their much needed senior experience. There have also been numerous occasions over the last few seasons when being able to recall some of our loans would have made more sense than playing other players out of position or bringing in some dreadful emergency loans. You also feel that some fringe players are being pushed out to get experience because the risk of them only getting u23 football for half a season is too great. When ideally you would keep them around for cup games and the occasional substitute appearance and then maybe send them out for a month in October/November if the opportunities were not coming up.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Middlesbrough Robin said:

Great article @Davefevs. So refreshing to read such a well researched informative article in the press. Between your analysis and @Olé's match reports there is rarely any need to read far beyond OTIB.

I still think that the loan system needs a review. The half/full season loan option has just resulted in clubs having to bring in additional numbers to the squad to cover suspensions/injuries, which then blocks the pathway for the younger players when they return from their much needed senior experience. There have also been numerous occasions over the last few seasons when being able to recall some of our loans would have made more sense than playing other players out of position or bringing in some dreadful emergency loans. You also feel that some fringe players are being pushed out to get experience because the risk of them only getting u23 football for half a season is too great. When ideally you would keep them around for cup games and the occasional substitute appearance and then maybe send them out for a month in October/November if the opportunities were not coming up.

I agree.

Got to be a two tiered system....one for u23s, one for overs.  Over 23 can stay as it is, with a couple of changes:

• cannot loan to same division club
• club must pick up full cost of wages / bonuses
• scrap loan fees (if a prem club want a champ club to give them game / development time, then that’s the trade-off)

under 23s:

• 1,3,6,12 month loans
• if same division, club must pick up full cost of wages / bonuses
• lower division, pick up 50% of wages / bonuses
• right of recall (you could add in 48 hours notice, to cover a team about to play a game)

[Middlesbrough Robin]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Got to be a two tiered system....one for u23s, one for overs.

Yes, this would make sense. I can see why they have done what they have done to provide some stability for individuals and lower league clubs. Everyone suffers from the inflexibility though and younger players often get stuck at clubs that are not playing them, especially when a team a league lower might have them as the first name on their team sheet. We could have done with being able to recall Morrell last autumn when we had a mini injury crisis, but we could have still offered Lincoln Bakinson or one of the other midfielders from our U23s.