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19 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

He stated that we don’t need a manager that has managed in the prem, because we aren’t in the prem, strange logic in my mind, surely if you can potentially hire a manager who has managed at a higher level, it would seem logical to hire that person.

That was absurd logic.

Even if managing in the Prem isn't a requirement, surely experience of winning promotion from the C'ship would be pretty desireable, if that is your stated goal?! 

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6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Just watched it and still none the wiser as to why Holden was the best candidate for the job. Same as usual it's just "trust us, we know what we're doing". 

Well unfortunately after 20 years of significant investment and imo significant underachievement based on that level of investment, I have little faith that the right appointment has been made, or that it was made for the right reasons. 

It's baffling that he continues to talk up the Academy as being a route to success when he won't invest in it to become Cat 1 and we have seen such little evidence of any Academy players (apart from Kelly) being promoted to the first team since Reid and Bryan departed. 

We are miles away from the Academy contributing significantly to the first team at the moment. He used the Bears as an example and said they have the same structure as the FC. Well Bristol had 12 Academy products in their squad on Saturday! If we have the same structure then why is half their squad made up of Academy lads and we rarely name more than one Academy player in our matchday squad? I appreciate it's a different sport but Bristol are managing to do this at an elite level, too. 

It was also interesting that he revealed he was told by Danny Wilson, what must have been a minimum of 15 years ago, to invest in the training ground. Why has this taken so long to deliver, if as Steve says, it's such a vitally important facility to have? Very strange. 

Finally, he mentioned that City have always done things the right way and take their time in the interviewing process. Well, apart from the times you haven't done that, Steve. Most recently about six years ago when you appointed SOD within 24 hours of sacking McInnes.  No interview process for Millen's appointment either, or Cotterill i think. Seemed like he was trying to rewrite history a bit to fit the current agenda. 

Overall, not a lot to be positive about, training ground aside. 

With SL, JL and MA making what seems to be pretty much every footballing decision at the club, it will be more luck than judgement if we do stumble on a winning formula that gets us to the Promised Land. 

It is very hard to find an argument against any of that @Kid in the Riot

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1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That was absurd logic.

Even if managing in the Prem isn't a requirement, surely experience of winning promotion from the C'ship would be pretty desireable, if that is your stated goal?! 

I am afraid it’s the usual ‘ it’s my club and I can do what I want’.

I fear this could go horribly wrong very quick.

I hope DH is a huge success but the odds are against that.

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6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It was also interesting that he revealed he was told by Danny Wilson, what must have been a minimum of 15 years ago, to invest in the training ground. Why has this taken so long to deliver, if as Steve says, it's such a vitally important facility to have? Very strange. 

I want a new kitchen but it’s gonna take a few years to raise the cash. 

Another one who whinges that Uncle Steve is not spending enough money. 

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7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Just watched it and still none the wiser as to why Holden was the best candidate for the job. Same as usual it's just "trust us, we know what we're doing". 

Well unfortunately after 20 years of significant investment and imo significant underachievement based on that level of investment, I have little faith that the right appointment has been made, or that it was made for the right reasons. 

It's baffling that he continues to talk up the Academy as being a route to success when he won't invest in it to become Cat 1 and we have seen such little evidence of any Academy players (apart from Kelly) being promoted to the first team since Reid and Bryan departed. 

We are miles away from the Academy contributing significantly to the first team at the moment. He used the Bears as an example and said they have the same structure as the FC. Well Bristol had 12 Academy products in their squad on Saturday! If we have the same structure then why is half their squad made up of Academy lads and we rarely name more than one Academy player in our matchday squad? I appreciate it's a different sport but Bristol are managing to do this at an elite level, too. 

It was also interesting that he revealed he was told by Danny Wilson, what must have been a minimum of 15 years ago, to invest in the training ground. Why has this taken so long to deliver, if as Steve says, it's such a vitally important facility to have? Very strange. 

Finally, he mentioned that City have always done things the right way and take their time in the interviewing process. Well, apart from the times you haven't done that, Steve. Most recently about six years ago when you appointed SOD within 24 hours of sacking McInnes.  No interview process for Millen's appointment either, or Cotterill i think. Seemed like he was trying to rewrite history a bit to fit the current agenda. 

Overall, not a lot to be positive about, training ground aside. 

With SL, JL and MA making what seems to be pretty much every footballing decision at the club, it will be more luck than judgement if we do stumble on a winning formula that gets us to the Promised Land. 

The academy stuff and "pathway" is what most gets on my tits.

Blocking off the routes to first team football for home grown players is not a pathway. That is the opposite. It is a dead end for academy players at BCFC.

And why are we as a club so insistent about the fact theres a pathway, but unwilling to stump up the cash to become a Cat 1 academy? There are 26 Cat 1 academies now, so If Steve is serious about a pathway then Cat 1 has to be the next thing on the agenda. Otherwise, there'll be fewer Lloyd Kellys, and more Herbie Kanes. BCFCs youth development/recruitment is a joke all around really, but you'd have thought for a side purporting to care about a pathway that we'd be Cat 1 by now. 

We are not a club that takes youth development seriously imo. 

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

That was absurd logic.

Even if managing in the Prem isn't a requirement, surely experience of winning promotion from the C'ship would be pretty desireable, if that is your stated goal?! 

The stated goal and the actual goal may not be the same. The evidence of recent years is that the main goal is to sign and develop players and sell for a profit. That includes players who are unlikely to see much first team action but whose value may still increase in an inflationary market. At that we have been successful but the churn acts against the alleged goal.

As to the alleged pathway, it appears to have a locked gate. The true pathway appears to be from Academy to multiple loans to being sold.

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7 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I want a new kitchen but it’s gonna take a few years to raise the cash. 

Another one who whinges that Uncle Steve is not spending enough money. 

On the contrary, @Kid in the Riotis saying that if the training ground is so important, as indeed it is, why did it take so long to invest in it? Given how much Steve has invested over the years it seems unlikely he couldn't raise the funds rather earlier. 

As Kid says there is some rewriting of history going on.

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48 minutes ago, Matthew me said:

I've never noticed a speech issue. Wouldn't bother me if he did have one. Doesn't really matter.

Communication has been the biggest failing from the club. Not the tonality or delivery 

No, nor me, that’s why I responded to JonDolman’s post - he brought it into the discussion.

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1 minute ago, megansdad said:

Quite clear DH had a plan which impressed those interviewing him. Can't see how that'shard to understand. Based on the conversations held he and his team were deemed the best people to take the club forward. 

At the risk of repeating myself, why should we not be told what that plan is then? We might be impressed as well. 

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Can't see any club that has done that with a manager. Proof will be in how we play no matter what is said. Happy we have an owner who invests heavily in the club and is a fan. Happy to trust his judgement and am looking forward to an exciting season. 

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5 minutes ago, megansdad said:

Can't see any club that has done that with a manager. Proof will be in how we play no matter what is said. Happy we have an owner who invests heavily in the club and is a fan. Happy to trust his judgement and am looking forward to an exciting season. 

Did you trust his judgement when he told us to judge him on the appointment of Tinnion? His track record in appointing managers leaves grounds for a good deal of scepticism I suggest.

We will indeed have to wait and see and I wish Dean well but I don't see any grounds for blind faith and excitement at this point.

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5 hours ago, Alessandro said:

Interesting line about the “answer being on our doorstep” regarding Holden.

Why then did it take 6 weeks to realise that, when you’ve had 4 years plus to realise that?

And what does it say about the candidate if they’re happy to sit in the background for 4 years plus?

And what does it say about every other club that no one unearthed him after in the 6 years plus he’s been coaching? And the only reason he’s got a championship managers job is ‘right place at the right time’.

I’m not calling it the cheap option, but I just wish SL had come out and spoken more honestly in that interview because I neither agree or believe a lot of what he said there.

It’s not an ambitious appointment, it’s not a breath of fresh air.

Personally when I see DH do an interview all I still see is “the assistant Johnson sent out when he couldn’t be bothered to do the media” 

Your probably not going to be won over then mate.

Shame, but see ya. 

I love an Ashton gate full of support when we're aloud back in. 

Come back when were in the prem and the struggle is over ?

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16 minutes ago, megansdad said:

Can't see any club that has done that with a manager. Proof will be in how we play no matter what is said. Happy we have an owner who invests heavily in the club and is a fan. Happy to trust his judgement and am looking forward to an exciting season. 

Let's face it most clubs are owned by people who like to think they know about football but don't.

But a club like Brentford have a clear and visible plan to the extent that they have told journalists that they already have their next Head Coach lined up for when Franks moves on. No exhaustive 5 week process required.

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All you negative types must be "supporting" a different Bristol City than the one that I have supported since the halcyon days before the Dolman Stand was built.  I see a club with a newly refurbished stadium, that would be the pride of any club in our division. I see that we are getting a new training ground that will be up there with the very best around. I see a large number of academy products playing senior and league football on loan and a couple joining the first team this season as important players. I see a club that has bought some very good players and managed to make a good profit on some of these after they have served the club well during their development. I see an owner who writes off millions of £s in our debts on a pretty regular basis so that we are not as vulnerable as many clubs who run continual losses. I see a club with huge infrastructure development plans that will feed further cash into the club to help in the goal of becoming sustainable after SL departs the scene.  I see stability - something Bristol City has not always known!

On the other hand I see a bunch of critical pygmies who say the support the club but criticise every decision without knowing the reasons for those decisions. At every turn they denigrate the members of the board, management  and even SL himself.  I see these people and am willing to bet that they are not hugely successful individuals, their sort seldom are, and that they represent a very small minority of the fan base but a larger percentage of the people on this forum who seem to have nothing better to do than obsess about what they see as failures.  We see things differently.

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58 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It's baffling that he continues to talk up the Academy as being a route to success when he won't invest in it to become Cat 1 and we have seen such little evidence of any Academy players (apart from Kelly) being promoted to the first team since Reid and Bryan departed. 

There's no need for us to need a cat 1 academy, yes you can recruit from a wider range of academies but would we? 'Sorry Steve we know you already put in ~£8m a season but do you fancy financing another £3m a season plus giving the academy a budget to bring in players we have no guarantee will even go on to get pro contracts let alone make the 1st team'. Believe me I'd love more than anyone for us to be cat 1 but in reality we don't need it.

42 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

The academy stuff and "pathway" is what most gets on my tits.

Blocking off the routes to first team football for home grown players is not a pathway. That is the opposite. It is a dead end for academy players at BCFC.

And why are we as a club so insistent about the fact theres a pathway, but unwilling to stump up the cash to become a Cat 1 academy? There are 26 Cat 1 academies now, so If Steve is serious about a pathway then Cat 1 has to be the next thing on the agenda. Otherwise, there'll be fewer Lloyd Kellys, and more Herbie Kanes. BCFCs youth development/recruitment is a joke all around really, but you'd have thought for a side purporting to care about a pathway that we'd be Cat 1 by now. 

We are not a club that takes youth development seriously imo. 

Add to the point above I made to KitR, why do we need a cat 1 academy? Yes we can recruit from where we'd want to but it doesn't stop any other academy recruiting from us (cat 1 can take from cat 1) so all it means is we'd get an extra £80,000 odd for a player taken by a cat 1 academy max. The Herbie Kane's and Jacob Maddox's could still leave with us unable to do anything about it. The other factor is being cat 1 obviously it means you have to play the other cat 1 clubs, realistically can you develop a squad of players who will be able to play well enough to compete at that level or would it be better to be cat 2 and be able to play better football? Again said to KitR £3m to run a cat 1 academy, Swansea are potentially dropping to cat 3 because their owners have said a cat 1 academy in the championship isn't financially feasible for them. Cat 1 championship clubs include Norwich, Stoke with parachute payments, Middlesbrough with recent parachute payments, then Derby, Reading and Blackburn. Being outside the premier league with a cat 1 academy or premier league money isn't normal by any stretch.

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Just watched it and still none the wiser as to why Holden was the best candidate for the job. Same as usual it's just "trust us, we know what we're doing". 

Well unfortunately after 20 years of significant investment and imo significant underachievement based on that level of investment, I have little faith that the right appointment has been made, or that it was made for the right reasons. 

It's baffling that he continues to talk up the Academy as being a route to success when he won't invest in it to become Cat 1 and we have seen such little evidence of any Academy players (apart from Kelly) being promoted to the first team since Reid and Bryan departed. 

We are miles away from the Academy contributing significantly to the first team at the moment. He used the Bears as an example and said they have the same structure as the FC. Well Bristol had 12 Academy products in their squad on Saturday! If we have the same structure then why is half their squad made up of Academy lads and we rarely name more than one Academy player in our matchday squad? I appreciate it's a different sport but Bristol are managing to do this at an elite level, too. 

It was also interesting that he revealed he was told by Danny Wilson, what must have been a minimum of 15 years ago, to invest in the training ground. Why has this taken so long to deliver, if as Steve says, it's such a vitally important facility to have? Very strange. 

Finally, he mentioned that City have always done things the right way and take their time in the interviewing process. Well, apart from the times you haven't done that, Steve. Most recently about six years ago when you appointed SOD within 24 hours of sacking McInnes.  No interview process for Millen's appointment either, or Cotterill i think. Seemed like he was trying to rewrite history a bit to fit the current agenda. 

Overall, not a lot to be positive about, training ground aside. 

With SL, JL and MA making what seems to be pretty much every footballing decision at the club, it will be more luck than judgement if we do stumble on a winning formula that gets us to the Promised Land. 

Some good points and your certainly on to something with many. 

But when do we just say and he's made mistakes he's tried to learn from them. (Whilst also trying to persuade his customers and all that)

It's really a stance of; he is overall the best thing to happen to this club, certainly when you look at other similar sized clubs disappear. 

Holdens who we got. Nobody really wanted him. But hay, might work. Let's give it our collective all.

With the club losing money "hand over fist" I personally would rather see us challenge affordably anyway 

 

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5 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

All you negative types must be "supporting" a different Bristol City than the one that I have supported since the halcyon days before the Dolman Stand was built.  I see a club with a newly refurbished stadium, that would be the pride of any club in our division. I see that we are getting a new training ground that will be up there with the very best around. I see a large number of academy products playing senior and league football on loan and a couple joining the first team this season as important players. I see a club that has bought some very good players and managed to make a good profit on some of these after they have served the club well during their development. I see an owner who writes off millions of £s in our debts on a pretty regular basis so that we are not as vulnerable as many clubs who run continual losses. I see a club with huge infrastructure development plans that will feed further cash into the club to help in the goal of becoming sustainable after SL departs the scene.  I see stability - something Bristol City has not always known!

On the other hand I see a bunch of critical pygmies who say the support the club but criticise every decision without knowing the reasons for those decisions. At every turn they denigrate the members of the board, management  and even SL himself.  I see these people and am willing to bet that they are not hugely successful individuals, their sort seldom are, and that they represent a very small minority of the fan base but a larger percentage of the people on this forum who seem to have nothing better to do than obsess about what they see as failures.  We see things differently.

I’m not a critic of SL, although I don’t agree with everything he says or does.  Some things I like, some I don’t.

There is however a streak in him that says “I’ve put millions in, I’m beyond criticism” (paraphrased).

There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  It’s possible to have achieved promotion without needing his millions every year.  A different strategy might’ve achieved it.  The current one hasn’t achieved it either.

His millions aren’t total charity either are they?  He’s got a big asset for his money....and kudos.  Some thrive on the power of kudos.

I’m grateful for his financial contribution and compliance, but I totally see why others aren’t, especially when you see failure / failure to achieve the objectives on the football side.

Criticism has degrees of justification, some if it on this thread and others is justified.

People who disagree with you aren’t all “negative”, nor a “bunch of critical pygmies”.  They have a different view to you.  Ever considered yours might be over-rose-tinted.  There’s middle ground here.

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not a critic of SL, although I don’t agree with everything he says or does.  Some things I like, some I don’t.

There is however a streak in him that says “I’ve put millions in, I’m beyond criticism” (paraphrased).

There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  It’s possible to have achieved promotion without needing his millions every year.  A different strategy might’ve achieved it.  The current one hasn’t achieved it either.

His millions aren’t total charity either are they?  He’s got a big asset for his money....and kudos.  Some thrive on the power of kudos.

I’m grateful for his financial contribution and compliance, but I totally see why others aren’t, especially when you see failure / failure to achieve the objectives on the football side.

Criticism has degrees of justification, some if it on this thread and others is justified.

People who disagree with you aren’t all “negative”, nor a “bunch of critical pygmies”.  They have a different view to you.  Ever considered yours might be over-rose-tinted.  There’s middle ground here.

We were a club yo-yoing between the bottom half of the Championship (if we were lucky) and League 1.  We are now credible play-off contenders, with the infrastructure to match, and hopefully still improving.  I don't call that failure.  If you're not a critic of SL, I'd hate to see someone who is.

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not a critic of SL, although I don’t agree with everything he says or does.  Some things I like, some I don’t.

There is however a streak in him that says “I’ve put millions in, I’m beyond criticism” (paraphrased).

There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  It’s possible to have achieved promotion without needing his millions every year.  A different strategy might’ve achieved it.  The current one hasn’t achieved it either.

His millions aren’t total charity either are they?  He’s got a big asset for his money....and kudos.  Some thrive on the power of kudos.

I’m grateful for his financial contribution and compliance, but I totally see why others aren’t, especially when you see failure / failure to achieve the objectives on the football side.

Criticism has degrees of justification, some if it on this thread and others is justified.

People who disagree with you aren’t all “negative”, nor a “bunch of critical pygmies”.  They have a different view to you.  Ever considered yours might be over-rose-tinted.  There’s middle ground here.

I liked the original post, but this is a good reply.

As you say, this middle ground. 

Imo . With everything gone on, he's probably playing it safe with DH and we should support that. 

As a collective, support is required if Holden is to perform the miracle.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not a critic of SL, although I don’t agree with everything he says or does.  Some things I like, some I don’t.

There is however a streak in him that says “I’ve put millions in, I’m beyond criticism” (paraphrased).

There are multiple ways to skin a cat.  It’s possible to have achieved promotion without needing his millions every year.  A different strategy might’ve achieved it.  The current one hasn’t achieved it either.

His millions aren’t total charity either are they?  He’s got a big asset for his money....and kudos.  Some thrive on the power of kudos.

I’m grateful for his financial contribution and compliance, but I totally see why others aren’t, especially when you see failure / failure to achieve the objectives on the football side.

Criticism has degrees of justification, some if it on this thread and others is justified.

People who disagree with you aren’t all “negative”, nor a “bunch of critical pygmies”.  They have a different view to you.  Ever considered yours might be over-rose-tinted.  There’s middle ground here.

Dave, you make many excellent posts and this was not really aimed at you.  What really gets my goat is that people use their negative imaginations and work out what they think has happened and what they think should have happened and then started to post as if their suppositions are based on fact and not fiction.  Many of the decisions made by SL and the board will be finely balanced and we cannot know what the real situation might be.  The same will go for choice of players in a team. We don't know how they have trained, if they have a cold, if they have had a row with a team mate or member of staff.  Every aspect of a player will go into the decision of whether it pick him or not. We can speculate and discuss the issues b but surely not from an antagonistic position. We ned to have faith in the people leading the club and have sufficient respect to give them room to do their jobs.  Some people even criticise SL being proud of what he has put into the club. If we take a step back, we can surely recognise the enormity of the contribution that SL has made to our club - and this has warped our expectations.  Maybe we should be grateful and play our part as supporters.

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I thought his sniffy comments about Birmingham’s undue haste (!) by effectively suggesting that they just went for the first person who showed any interest by appointing Karanka inside 3 weeks was all a bit odd, too.

Clearly struck a bit of a nerve that it was even brought up, I thought.

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Just watched it and still none the wiser as to why Holden was the best candidate for the job. Same as usual it's just "trust us, we know what we're doing". 

Well unfortunately after 20 years of significant investment and imo significant underachievement based on that level of investment, I have little faith that the right appointment has been made, or that it was made for the right reasons. 

It's baffling that he continues to talk up the Academy as being a route to success when he won't invest in it to become Cat 1 and we have seen such little evidence of any Academy players (apart from Kelly) being promoted to the first team since Reid and Bryan departed. 

We are miles away from the Academy contributing significantly to the first team at the moment. He used the Bears as an example and said they have the same structure as the FC. Well Bristol had 12 Academy products in their squad on Saturday! If we have the same structure then why is half their squad made up of Academy lads and we rarely name more than one Academy player in our matchday squad? I appreciate it's a different sport but Bristol are managing to do this at an elite level, too

It was also interesting that he revealed he was told by Danny Wilson, what must have been a minimum of 15 years ago, to invest in the training ground. Why has this taken so long to deliver, if as Steve says, it's such a vitally important facility to have? Very strange. 

Finally, he mentioned that City have always done things the right way and take their time in the interviewing process. Well, apart from the times you haven't done that, Steve. Most recently about six years ago when you appointed SOD within 24 hours of sacking McInnes.  No interview process for Millen's appointment either, or Cotterill i think. Seemed like he was trying to rewrite history a bit to fit the current agenda. 

Overall, not a lot to be positive about, training ground aside. 

With SL, JL and MA making what seems to be pretty much every footballing decision at the club, it will be more luck than judgement if we do stumble on a winning formula that gets us to the Promised Land. 

Think you make some excellent points, just wanted to comment on this one though. 

There's a few things to consider with the Bristol academy. Firstly, to my knowledge, academies in Rugby are vastly different to football. Clubs like Bristol will use the school system to pick up the best players and have coaches connected to the club at various schools across the City. For instance, clifton college has big links with Bristol and Bristol provide them with a pathway for young players to make the step into top club rugby from school. Unlike football, kids won't join an academy from 7 or 8 but instead will be trained at the school and then cherry picked. Obviously this isn't always the case (a la Genge with Bristol) but it makes the whole academy set up very different. 

Secondly, the academy in Rugby is much closer to the first team than in football. As rugby clubs need bigger squads they need to utilise academy players more, so you'll find clubs talking about 'integrated academy' players, who whilst still being on academy contracts at 18,19,20 etc, will be training every week with the first team, ready to step in when needed. 

Finally, with regards to Saturdays game, Bristol had been forced by guidelines to include a number of academy players in the squad. Some of these (Lloyd and Powell for instance) have played with the first team before and so it's much more common, especially in the current situation, to see academy players in prem Rugby squads. 

I realise that's quite a long winded explanation for a small point but it's important to see the big differences between how academies are run in football and rugby, and why it seems that a lot more Rugby academy players are getting more game time and exposure than city academy players

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27 minutes ago, red panda said:

We were a club yo-yoing between the bottom half of the Championship (if we were lucky) and League 1.  We are now credible play-off contenders, with the infrastructure to match, and hopefully still improving.  I don't call that failure.  If you're not a critic of SL, I'd hate to see someone who is.

That’s why it says failure “slash” failure to achieve on the footballing side.  SL has set the aim, and its not been delivered on.  Some people see it as black and white “failure”....and will aim it as the man at the top. SL may himself see it as failure.

What happened the last time in SL’s reign we got to being in regular playoff contention?  It’s not like it’s been up, up, up.  I don’t think the period after Gary Johnson was deemed “success” was it?

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Once upon a time I would have hang on every word he says, now my initial reaction is he full of bullshit, it's the first time for many who now look at him with a lot of scepticism.

For his and Holden's sake I genuinely hope this works out, if it all goes pair shaped he has to take it on the chin, because the criticism is going to be pretty damning.

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