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I've said numerous times in the past, that we have a system in place which will severely lessen the amount of Coaches willing to work under it.

SL says that we will continue to buy under valued young players, develop them, and try to bring in Academy players...and that we will not move from that remit. He says that in the interview.

It's a flawed system if you want top 6 and you sell your better players every season.

Any experienced Coach will know that. 

Perhaps the experienced Coaches interviewed weren't willing to work within that remit, knowing full well their hands are tied, yet expected top 6 and judged accordingly.

This is why I think they chose DH.

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14 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Probably very bravely is giving it a go for when he is owner one day. Someone calling him 'hopeless' and how they 'cringe' - shocking that.

I would say he has a stutter yes.

But if he's got a stutter, anxiety, fear of public speaking. Whatever it is, why would any fan have a problem with it. Why on earth would it matter.

Never seen any sign of a stutter.

A level of anxiety about public speaking however is quite possible and hardly unusual for those for whom it doesn't come easily or naturally.

Which is probably the vast majority.

Having been to some of the early Q&A's, for the likes of extroverts GJ and Sexstone it was a doddle, but SL didn't look particularly comfortable to me and an awkwardness towards public speaking - quite normal imo - may be something he's had to work at to overcome over the years.

If that's the case JL will likewise no doubt find it increasingly less of an ordeal the more he has reason to do it.

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12 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

All you negative types must be "supporting" a different Bristol City than the one that I have supported since the halcyon days before the Dolman Stand was built.  I see a club with a newly refurbished stadium, that would be the pride of any club in our division. I see that we are getting a new training ground that will be up there with the very best around. I see a large number of academy products playing senior and league football on loan and a couple joining the first team this season as important players. I see a club that has bought some very good players and managed to make a good profit on some of these after they have served the club well during their development. I see an owner who writes off millions of £s in our debts on a pretty regular basis so that we are not as vulnerable as many clubs who run continual losses. I see a club with huge infrastructure development plans that will feed further cash into the club to help in the goal of becoming sustainable after SL departs the scene.  I see stability - something Bristol City has not always known!

On the other hand I see a bunch of critical pygmies who say the support the club but criticise every decision without knowing the reasons for those decisions. At every turn they denigrate the members of the board, management  and even SL himself.  I see these people and am willing to bet that they are not hugely successful individuals, their sort seldom are, and that they represent a very small minority of the fan base but a larger percentage of the people on this forum who seem to have nothing better to do than obsess about what they see as failures.  We see things differently.

I don't see why we need bring hunter gatherers of the Congo basin into this!

Some people just don't think Holden is the right choice.

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7 minutes ago, spudski said:

I've said numerous times in the past, that we have a system in place which will severely lessen the amount of Coaches willing to work under it.

SL says that we will continue to buy under valued young players, develop them, and try to bring in Academy players...and that we will not move from that remit. He says that in the interview.

It's a flawed system if you want top 6 and you sell your better players every season.

Any experienced Coach will know that. 

Perhaps the experienced Coaches interviewed weren't willing to work within that remit, knowing full well their hands are tied, yet expected top 6 and judged accordingly.

This is why I think they chose DH.

One of the questions I’d like to have heard SL answer is “ why do you want your cake and eat it?” because that’s pretty much what he’s doing by wanting the Head Coach to reach the PL but at the same time developing talent but then having to sell them...............:cool2:

You’re right that it’s a flawed system but.....when I pointed that out last season I was reminded that other Championship clubs sell their better players and the Bees were used as an example and they had a pretty good season.
 

A former poster on here said to me at a match when the ‘sustainability’ policy was first mentioned that if City had to develop younger players into Championship quality and reach the PL that way then City had no chance - and that was before our better players started to get sold.

It seems that Bristol Boy was right.

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4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

One of the questions I’d like to have heard SL answer is “ why do you want your cake and eat it?” because that’s pretty much what he’s doing by wanting the Head Coach to reach the PL but at the same time developing talent but then having to sell them...............:cool2:

You’re right that it’s a flawed system but.....when I pointed that out last season I was reminded that other Championship clubs sell their better players and the Bees were used as an example and they had a pretty good season.
 

A former poster on here said to me at a match when the ‘sustainability’ policy was first mentioned that if City had to develop younger players into Championship quality and reach the PL that way then City had no chance - and that was before our better players started to get sold.

It seems that Bristol Boy was right.

Agree with you and Spudski.  It is very difficult to go down the route we have, but I don’t think it’s impossible.

Rinse and Repeat has big holes in it....because on the face if it to many fans it’s buy one, develop them, sell them, repeat....standing still to some extent.  Which is probably what we’ve done.

The knack is to not buy one, but to buy the “conveyor belt”, so you don’t feel the pinch every time you sell one of your better players.  That conveyor belt is more efficient if Academy players can get on it, because then you create the excess like in a Lloyd Kelly situation where you suddenly have an extra £15m, even though Dasilva only cost £2m.  Kelly got on the high-speed lane.  We need more of them.

Unfortunately we have frittered away some of the money from expensive sells like Webster, Kelly, Reid etc.

Sitting here today, who is the next £10m Academy player who gets on the fast belt?  I don’t see one in the near future.

Ok, so no Academy player, who’s the next £10m player we’ve bought cheaply?  Dasilva / Williams (but we’ve only just got him) possibly?  Moore with a stellar season?  That’s about it.

We’ve got to be so much better in recruitment....and even better at getting Academy players developed.

Either that, or we need a head-coach who can organise and drill a team to make up for the deficiencies (compared to high budget teams) and be about “sum of the parts”.  We only had them in blocks under LJ, when the “stars aligned”.

In summary, we need a coherent strategy.

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1 hour ago, TonyTonyTony said:

Here we go again. Perhaps Hughton wanted too much money / wanted too much transfer funds which ruled him out. Perhaps Holden interviewed well and agreed to take the job within the financial realities of the club. Would t that make him the best candidate in the eyes of the owner? The truth is we will never know so I suggest we all get over it and crack on. 

This approach is basically to ignore what the vast majority see as a missed opportunity & just put up with whatever we are given.

As others have said above, it really isn’t about Hughton per se, it is simply inconceivable that there was no experienced candidate that was found suitable by “the process” because if that truly is the case then “the process” was fundamentally flawed.

I am sure you were one of a number of posters that were unwilling to believe at the time that it was Holden in sole charge and that a mythical Director of Football was being appointed too, that was never going to be the case, all the control here will never be relinquished by Ashton & SL.

I still hope Holden does well but like the club, I have very little to base that on.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Good post ?????? Bit in bold I resonate with.  I really saw a lot to be encouraged about in Holden’s 5 games in charge, but no way 1) did I think he’d get the job (at the start of the process) and 2) could he ever be the outstanding candidate.  For him to be the outstanding candidate, to me, means the process was flawed.  It now sounds as if “we are looking for the right TYPE of person” constrained the chances of some candidates from getting the job....and it took them several interviews to reach that decision.

We will never know the real truth. it’s not like there was an advert that listed the requirements.  You can see why agents would be putting their clients names forward.  But should they have retracted their clients interest when they saw that City were looking to progress  differently.  Should MA and JL have filtered out more earlier?  They spoke to over 10.  I’m fine with that.  Get an initial impression, cull those that you now realise don’t fit what you’re looking for.  They spoke to 4 extensively. If the likes of Hughton and Cook, together with Holden, got through the initial funnel, and were then interviewed several times, I find it hard to believe that the interview process wasn’t then loaded towards Holden - MA “he was the best fit”.

At the end of the day, it’s old news.  I was comfortable with Holden, I still am.  I think it was right to conduct a thorough search, cast the net....but I do think early in the 6 week process they should’ve filtered out much earlier.

Without needing to be critical of the ones who didn’t get the job (and no names have been mentioned), explain to the fans why Dean was the “best fit”.  Was it his knowledge of the squad, was it his commitment to develop what was already here, was it his clear tactical approach, etc?  Tell us.  We then have a better understanding.

Yes I think a lot seem to have fallen into this black and white idea that there were two choices; 1) Hughton, who came with large transfer expectations or 2) Holden, who is the sensible choice given the current climate/financial model.

To quickly name but two other options, Cook and Neil, both with track records at this level, promotions under belts and both currently working under tight budgets getting teams playing better than the sum of their parts. Both on paper, stronger than Holden.

The question i'm asking myself, why couldn't we appoint someone like that? I'm left wondering the same as you and others have eluded to - the way we're running the club hugely limits the type of manager willing to work within those parameters. As you say, we're looking for a certain type of character. That for me is a concern, as I can only see us going around in circles until we eventually (if ever) stumble across the right manager at the right time, and ultimately the longer that goes on, the more the people (MA, JL, SL) who aren't the 'football' people in the club grow influence over the all important day to day football side of things. Any good manager will see that and won't touch it with a barge pole. Perhaps that's already happened this time round, who knows.

I've been a big supporter of SL and his process over recent years, but slowly a drip-drop of things have made me ask questions, until the full ice bucket of Holden over the head given me a big wake up call. It's funny because SL talked about not making the same mistakes again, but this could very easily be Tinnion all over again. 

Anyway....I admire your backing of Holden (there were certainly some green shoots at the end of the season) and ultimately, as of Saturday, it's a clean slate from me. I'll give him every support and I genuinely hope he proves my concerns unfounded, because I would love the storyline if he can succeed.

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1 minute ago, Alessandro said:

To quickly name but two other options, Cook and O'Neil

Yes there are lots of other options but to quickly answer these 2, Cook - Looks like he genuinely wanted some time out of the game. Did you mean Alex Neil? Given Michael O'Neill hasn't long been at Stoke and I don't think we'd want to bring in Martin... anyway Alex Neil has a rumoured £3m release clause at Preston.

Basically there would have been plenty of other candidates but also potentially plenty of reasons why those people wouldn't have been right.

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Just now, Lrrr said:

Yes there are lots of other options but to quickly answer these 2, Cook - Looks like he genuinely wanted some time out of the game. Did you mean Alex Neil? Given Michael O'Neill hasn't long been at Stoke and I don't think we'd want to bring in Martin... anyway Alex Neil has a rumoured £3m release clause at Preston.

Basically there would have been plenty of other candidates but also potentially plenty of reasons why those people wouldn't have been right.

Sorry yes Alex Neil. Not sure the release clause should be an immediate no-go for the right person, but yeah you're right and I totally take your point. Many factors....

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Without needing to be critical of the ones who didn’t get the job (and no names have been mentioned), explain to the fans why Dean was the “best fit”.  Was it his knowledge of the squad, was it his commitment to develop what was already here, was it his clear tactical approach, etc?  Tell us.  We then have a better understanding.

So we started hammering Gregor to ask LJ what his "style" was. And we ended up with Busy Bees and Box Entries. People should be calling for "What is the plan?" as the next question.

I'm willing to say that Dean MIGHT have the best plan, after all he is in the best position to understand the current player set, their strengths and weaknesses and how to fix it within the budget. I hope that's why it took so long to decide. They gave Hughton the same information, time to study the squad and then present his plan and then they compared it. Maybe Hughton's was crap. I dunno, didn't see it.

but it's also on the people judging it. If they believe that it was the best plan, and this doesn't work. you don't let them judge the next plan. That's why I'm not super against JL and MA YET. But they cannot be allowed involvement in picking the NEXT manager IF Dean fails.

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree with you and Spudski.  It is very difficult to go down the route we have, but I don’t think it’s impossible.

Unfortunately we have frittered away some of the money from expensive sells like Webster, Kelly, Reid etc.

We’ve got to be so much better in recruitment....and even better at getting Academy players developed.

It's clearly not as other teams without parachute payments have done it, and other teams with lesser budgets are doing it BETTER than us. We're nowhere near the worst, which people lose sight of massively, but not the best either.

Bobby Reid showed that if you have one good season in the championship, are of a certain age in a certain position and you're ~£10 million. Antoine Semenyo scores 15 goals for this season and he's a £10 million player.

Our recruitment is not great. I firmly believe MA is REALLY good at negotiating deals and finding appropriate value. There's only really Jack Hunt and maybe Kalas that we've overpaid for in a long time. (dunno loan fees ofc!) But the people choosing the players to sign, not sure about them. If our analytic department picked Szmodics (LJ said they had to convince him to sign SS) and he can't get in our team, then.. what we value in data is wrong.

You're obviously into data and follow the club closely. LJ said Joe Morrell and Liam Walsh were like 3rd and 1st in what they wanted from midfielders data in L1 right? So if they're not good enough, then our data is bad, we use them bad, or league one is a cesspool which we cannot sign from. Which means sack the analytics team, sack the coach, never buy from league one again. So those two players are fascinating to me this season from that angle.

The other thing in which we're totally incompetent is communicating to fans. JL is a TERRIBLE speaker. He's so weak and nervous and inspires 0 confidence. This isn't hating his personality ofc! I'm not the greatest public speaker, but my job isn't partly public speaking. Mark Ashton is good in the corporate world and he needs to stay there! He can't connect with fans at all. I'm not in the Ashton out club until we see IF Holden fails. And so that leaves a void. Which is filled by the manager. Can Holden fill it? We'll see.

Having an American style GM and Head Coach system is fine, but you need to back it with the general sacking policy too. GM picks the coach (this time it's Ashton and Holden), coach fails, GM gets fired too. Maybe, maybe past successes gets the GM a second or third chance, but that's it. Who picked LJ? we think SL right? Is that why he moved away from the process, because he believes he messed up? Well that's fine then. SL has to hold JL and MA to account now though.

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2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Sorry yes Alex Neil. Not sure the release clause should be an immediate no-go for the right person, but yeah you're right and I totally take your point. Many factors....

In a non covid time then yes I'd agree, but £3m at the moment, is that £3m saved there which has allowed Dean to sign Joe Williams instead, potentially Pereira back as well etc.

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Just now, Lrrr said:

In a non covid time then yes I'd agree, but £3m at the moment, is that £3m saved there which has allowed Dean to sign Joe Williams instead, potentially Pereira back as well etc.

No doubt the £3m or whatever the amount is would be staggered over a few seasons, but either way you wouldn't blink at that for a player, we shouldn't question it for the arguably the most important piece of the puzzle right manager. Bear in mind we probably have people sat on the bench that cost more than that!

Personally if we made one purchase of £3m this summer, i'd rather it was for the best head coach we could get than any new player, but that's me. 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I've said numerous times in the past, that we have a system in place which will severely lessen the amount of Coaches willing to work under it.

SL says that we will continue to buy under valued young players, develop them, and try to bring in Academy players...and that we will not move from that remit. He says that in the interview.

It's a flawed system if you want top 6 and you sell your better players every season.

Any experienced Coach will know that. 

Perhaps the experienced Coaches interviewed weren't willing to work within that remit, knowing full well their hands are tied, yet expected top 6 and judged accordingly.

This is why I think they chose DH.

Agreed I understand lansdown saying this club needs to be self efficient but to keep selling the best players won't get us out this league,I'm afraid the remit the club's working under won't see us in the premierleague anytime soon,If you keep selling your best players that effects the entire squad the entire thing frustrates me and to be honest lansdown is banging his head against a brick wall if he thinks promotion will be achieved this way. 

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14 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Yes I think a lot seem to have fallen into this black and white idea that there were two choices; 1) Hughton, who came with large transfer expectations or 2) Holden, who is the sensible choice given the current climate/financial model.

To quickly name but two other options, Cook and O'Neil, both with track records at this level, promotions under belts and both currently working under tight budgets getting teams playing better than the sum of their parts. Both on paper, stronger than Holden.

The question i'm asking myself, why couldn't we appoint someone like that? I'm left wondering the same as you and others have eluded to - the way we're running the club hugely limits the type of manager willing to work within those parameters. As you say, we're looking for a certain type of character. That for me is a concern, as I can only see us going around in circles until we eventually (if ever) stumble across the right manager at the right time, and ultimately the longer that goes on, the more the people (MA, JL, SL) who aren't the 'football' people in the club grow influence over the all important day to day football side of things. Any good manager will see that and won't touch it with a barge pole. Perhaps that's already happened this time round, who knows.

I've been a big supporter of SL and his process over recent years, but slowly a drip-drop of things have made me ask questions, until the full ice bucket of Holden over the head given me a big wake up call. It's funny because SL talked about not making the same mistakes again, but this could very easily be Tinnion all over again. 

Anyway....I admire your backing of Holden (there were certainly some green shoots at the end of the season) and ultimately, as of Saturday, it's a clean slate from me. I'll give him every support and I genuinely hope he proves my concerns unfounded, because I would love the storyline if he can succeed.

Why does everyone assume that the green shoots at the end of the season was down to Holden. The decisions made in respect of team selection and shape was actually made by his assistant, that has now gone. Hopefully his new assistants will come up with some good ideas this time around. As far as SL is concerned he has pumped significant sums into the club and should be respected for that. However, there is no sensible justification for the decision to appoint Holden and then at the last minute his assistants unless the other viable candidates were not interested or MA didn’t feel he could keep control over the transfers etc which he benefits from.  Of course they cant tell us either of those facts which is why we get the bull....

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14 hours ago, Redrascal2 said:

SL states that Holden, Simpson and Downing  are a very very exciting team. Well it does not take much to excite SL then. A less exciting and more disappointing trio I would struggle to imagine. The worry is if he actually believes what he is saying.

Based on what? Because they aren’t household names? Have you seen the work they’re doing or the ideas they have?

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36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree with you and Spudski.  It is very difficult to go down the route we have, but I don’t think it’s impossible.

Rinse and Repeat has big holes in it....because on the face if it to many fans it’s buy one, develop them, sell them, repeat....standing still to some extent.  Which is probably what we’ve done.

Sitting here today, who is the next £10m Academy player who gets on the fast belt?  I don’t see one in the near future.

Ok, so no Academy player, who’s the next £10m player we’ve bought cheaply?  Dasilva / Williams (but we’ve only just got him) possibly?  Moore with a stellar season?  That’s about it.

We’ve got to be so much better in recruitment....and even better at getting Academy players developed.

Either that, or we need a head-coach who can organise and drill a team to make up for the deficiencies (compared to high budget teams) and be about “sum of the parts”.  We only had them in blocks under LJ, when the “stars aligned”.

In summary, we need a coherent strategy.

SL would say that sustainability is a coherent strategy despite the fact that after 4.5 years LJ failed to deliver.

Personally I don’t see an issue withe recruitment. City have signed plenty of younger players who all pretty much go out on loan to gain experience of competitive league football. So far that’s worked for Morrell, Vyner and to a lesser degree Taylor Moore but the likes of Semenyo and Eisa It hasn’t paid off. Johnny Smith is another who might tear up L1 and either earn a recall (if there is that option) or feature for City next season.

For me the real question is how/who makes the decision on whether a youngster deserves a chance?  Semenyo got on the bench but only to meet the FA criteria on home grown players. I do wonder if LJ in particular was too expectant in what he considered to be Championship quality and guys like Semenyo never really got a chance and maybe that’s an issue Deano and his assistants should look at........breath of fresh air and all that.........:cool2:

 

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11 minutes ago, Prinny said:

So we started hammering Gregor to ask LJ what his "style" was. And we ended up with Busy Bees and Box Entries. People should be calling for "What is the plan?" as the next question.

yes, and it needs to be digestible and appropriate for the audience receiving it.  If Dean continues to evolve what he started in the 5 games as caretaker I think we will be able to see it with our own eyes.

I'm willing to say that Dean MIGHT have the best plan, after all he is in the best position to understand the current player set, their strengths and weaknesses and how to fix it within the budget. I hope that's why it took so long to decide. They gave Hughton the same information, time to study the squad and then present his plan and then they compared it. Maybe Hughton's was crap. I dunno, didn't see it.

I know you’re not eluding to it per se, but the gossip that he went in unprepared is not what I heard....but then again my view is only 3rd hand gossip too.  I do think that had Hughton come out better than Holden through the process, he’d have got it.  The evaluation of each might have been poorly created though ?

but it's also on the people judging it. If they believe that it was the best plan, and this doesn't work. you don't let them judge the next plan. That's why I'm not super against JL and MA YET. But they cannot be allowed involvement in picking the NEXT manager IF Dean fails.

someone asked me whether this appointment increased MA’s power / control.  I don’t think it did, but it certainly increased his risk.  If this goes pear-shaped, MA (along with DH) will be on the hook.  There’s no way JL gets any flak is there.

It's clearly not as other teams without parachute payments have done it, and other teams with lesser budgets are doing it BETTER than us. We're nowhere near the worst, which people lose sight of massively, but not the best either.

Exactly.  Brentford bombing (harsh word) has probably taken a bit of pressure off in a perverse way.  Had they gone up, with their budget, it would’ve looked bad on us.  But Brentford and Preston are our barometers.  At least one of them keeps finishing ahead of us each season.

Bobby Reid showed that if you have one good season in the championship, are of a certain age in a certain position and you're ~£10 million. Antoine Semenyo scores 15 goals for this season and he's a £10 million player.

Yep, it can happen.  There doesn’t seem to be an obvious one yet....but by Xmas who knows, the next nugget might be being dug up.

Our recruitment is not great. I firmly believe MA is REALLY good at negotiating deals and finding appropriate value. There's only really Jack Hunt and maybe Kalas that we've overpaid for in a long time. (dunno loan fees ofc!) But the people choosing the players to sign, not sure about them. If our analytic department picked Szmodics (LJ said they had to convince him to sign SS) and he can't get in our team, then.. what we value in data is wrong.
Firstly, I think we overpaid on Kalas, because we “pulled their pants down” with Dasilva.  No pain, no gain.

Yes, the head-coach shouldn’t need convincing, he should be bought in and enthusiastically backing what the analysts have come up with.  That ability to compare other leagues and divisions to the division we are in looks like it needs refining. 

You're obviously into data and follow the club closely. LJ said Joe Morrell and Liam Walsh were like 3rd and 1st in what they wanted from midfielders data in L1 right? So if they're not good enough, then our data is bad, we use them bad, or league one is a cesspool which we cannot sign from. Which means sack the analytics team, sack the coach, never buy from league one again. So those two players are fascinating to me this season from that angle.

Totally agree with that....the only caveat is whether DH looks at a midfielder in the same way as LJ did.  I do think LJ had unconscious bias re looking for midfielders who resembled him!!

The other thing in which we're totally incompetent is communicating to fans. JL is a TERRIBLE speaker. He's so weak and nervous and inspires 0 confidence. This isn't hating his personality ofc! I'm not the greatest public speaker, but my job isn't partly public speaking. Mark Ashton is good in the corporate world and he needs to stay there! He can't connect with fans at all. I'm not in the Ashton out club until we see IF Holden fails. And so that leaves a void. Which is filled by the manager. Can Holden fill it? We'll see.

I don’t think Holden will BS us, and I think he’ll protect his players.  Whether he gets people onside with that will depend on what he says when we lose / play badly.  I don’t think he will so expansive in his answers like LJ was.

Having an American style GM and Head Coach system is fine, but you need to back it with the general sacking policy too. GM picks the coach (this time it's Ashton and Holden), coach fails, GM gets fired too. Maybe, maybe past successes gets the GM a second or third chance, but that's it. Who picked LJ? we think SL right? Is that why he moved away from the process, because he believes he messed up? Well that's fine then. SL has to hold JL and MA to account now though.

Another good post ?????? Comments above ⬆️⬆️⬆️

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16 minutes ago, Dibdenred said:

Why does everyone assume that the green shoots at the end of the season was down to Holden. The decisions made in respect of team selection and shape was actually made by his assistant, that has now gone. Hopefully his new assistants will come up with some good ideas this time around. As far as SL is concerned he has pumped significant sums into the club and should be respected for that. However, there is no sensible justification for the decision to appoint Holden and then at the last minute his assistants unless the other viable candidates were not interested or MA didn’t feel he could keep control over the transfers etc which he benefits from.  Of course they cant tell us either of those facts which is why we get the bull....

I think it’s pretty clear from Holden’s first interview that he felt JM sided with LJ too much.  If he felt 352 was a JM choice, why would he carry this into preseason and also request the u23s and u18s play that shape (predominantly) too?  Why wouldn’t he keep JM if that was the case.

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

SL would say that sustainability is a coherent strategy despite the fact that after 4.5 years LJ failed to deliver.

Personally I don’t see an issue withe recruitment. City have signed plenty of younger players who all pretty much go out on loan to gain experience of competitive league football. So far that’s worked for Morrell, Vyner and to a lesser degree Taylor Moore but the likes of Semenyo and Eisa It hasn’t paid off. Johnny Smith is another who might tear up L1 and either earn a recall (if there is that option) or feature for City next season.

For me the real question is how/who makes the decision on whether a youngster deserves a chance?  Semenyo got on the bench but only to meet the FA criteria on home grown players. I do wonder if LJ in particular was too expectant in what he considered to be Championship quality and guys like Semenyo never really got a chance and maybe that’s an issue Deano and his assistants should look at........breath of fresh air and all that.........:cool2:

 

Bold Comment 1 - It’s a strap line of a strategy....it’s underpinned by detail, covering many facets, financial performance being one of them (an important one)

Bold Comment 2 - Re recruitment, nor do I, my main issue has been....

Bold Comment 3 - this ??????

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I've said numerous times in the past, that we have a system in place which will severely lessen the amount of Coaches willing to work under it.

SL says that we will continue to buy under valued young players, develop them, and try to bring in Academy players...and that we will not move from that remit. He says that in the interview.

It's a flawed system if you want top 6 and you sell your better players every season.

Any experienced Coach will know that. 

Perhaps the experienced Coaches interviewed weren't willing to work within that remit, knowing full well their hands are tied, yet expected top 6 and judged accordingly.

This is why I think they chose DH.

Completely agree with this. 

I would also take it a step further, however, in that the under-valued players that we are looking to bring in and develop are not even selected by the Head Coach imo.

My theory is that the HC goes to Ashton and his recruitment department asking for a player in a particular position. Ashton then then goes to the recruitment team and goes back to the HC with a list of options from their database, research etc., with Holden only getting involved at that point. Holden may have the final say out of those options, as Ashton always insists, but I very much doubt he even has much input into the original list of targets. 

The experienced coaches we looked at would want to bring in their own players who they’ve worked with before who won’t necessarily fit the mould. They wouldn’t want to work in the way we operate, and that’s why we’ve ended up with Holden, LJ, Millen, Tinnion etc. over the years.

This is pure speculation on my part, just my theory on how it all works and why we almost always end up getting with an inexperienced HC. They’ll put up with SL and MA calling the shots in a way the Hughtons would not. 

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2 minutes ago, Jacki said:

Completely agree with this. 

I would also take it a step further, however, in that the under-valued players that we are looking to bring in and develop are not even selected by the Head Coach imo.

My theory is that the HC goes to Ashton and his recruitment department asking for a player in a particular position. Ashton then then goes to the recruitment team and goes back to the HC with a list of options from their database, research etc., with Holden only getting involved at that point. Holden may have the final say out of those options, as Ashton always insists, but I very much doubt he even has much input into the original list of targets. 

The experienced coaches we looked at would want to bring in their own players who they’ve worked with before who won’t necessarily fit the mould. They wouldn’t want to work in the way we operate, and that’s why we’ve ended up with Holden, LJ, Millen, Tinnion etc. over the years.

This is pure speculation on my part, just my theory on how it all works and why we almost always end up getting with an inexperienced HC. They’ll put up with SL and MA calling the shots in a way the Hughtons would not. 

I was scribbling this as your post came up saying very similar;

A little while ago, when the appointment process was in its final stages, Gregor tweeted that DH had a powerful ally backing him. No prizes now for guessing who that was. 

SLs interview reiterated his 100% commitment to the current way of working and, because of that, it probably became obvious during the appointment process that it precluded most candidates for the job and left DH in pole position. 

I don't know if JL and MA tried to make concessions to try to fit in another candidate but it wouldn't surprise me given the length of the process. But if no concessions were to be made by SL then there was only one choice. 

Best of luck to Dean Holden and I hope that SL has made the right choice this time, I'm sure DH will rightly get the supporters backing.

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9 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I was scribbling this as your post came up saying very similar;

A little while ago, when the appointment process was in its final stages, Gregor tweeted that DH had a powerful ally backing him. No prizes now for guessing who that was. 

SLs interview reiterated his 100% commitment to the current way of working and, because of that, it probably became obvious during the appointment process that it precluded most candidates for the job and left DH in pole position. 

I don't know if JL and MA tried to make concessions to try to fit in another candidate but it wouldn't surprise me given the length of the process. But if no concessions were to be made by SL then there was only one choice. 

Best of luck to Dean Holden and I hope that SL has made the right choice this time, I'm sure DH will rightly get the supporters backing.

You are probably right with all this, and like you now the dust has settled I will get behind DH. He seems like a thoroughly decent bloke whose heart is in the right place and I sincerely hope it works.

I do still have misgivings about this whole thing though, and as I said when DH was appointed we will only reach the Premier League if the stars align and we have a great deal of fortune along the way. 

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15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Another good post ?????? Comments above ⬆️⬆️⬆️

I think a lot of the response you gave expand well on what I said. We actively need people who have the ability to ask questions to get explanations for us to understand what we're looking at better.

What does Dean Holden value in a CM player? Well we signed Williams, but why? I mean WE both think he's a good champ player if i remember previous comments, but why does Dean? I want more info. What's his role in the team and squad going to be? LJ was actually quite open with that, since we learned about how things like analytics related to our players.  In many ways his openness led to us understanding  he was spouting BS sometimes. SL communicating led to the collective  dislike of the Holden appointment. Dangerous game is speaking up!

I agree with the idea Holden won't BS us as he hasn't so far. So let's ask better questions of him! I think if he WANTS people to be more positive to him, he needs to be quite open and honest rather than closed and honest. People usually have better to responses if they can understand a logical reason even if they disagree. Mindlessly backing the players is AS bad as throwing them under the bus all the time for me. Both are dishonest. I know some people like the "always back the players, deal with things in private" approach, but as a fan of the club I don't want a dishonest manager. I don't need gory details but I would like communication of plan and action. Depends on how much he values having the fans on side. Hope he can do that before the stadiums are open, so people a) want to go b) want to go support the team rather than hate on the team!

Perhaps now you're the lead sports writer at the BP you can use your incredible power and influence to get the answers we need!

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13 hours ago, IAmNick said:

We need this continued huge investment in our infrastructure and at least £10-15m plus per summer on the team to stay competitive with teams like Millwall and Preston.

It's just impossible otherwise. The plan is working!

The infrastructure will be there for many decades to come and may even be further improved. The aim of this is to bring more cash into the club so that it can eventually be self sustaining. SL realises this and knows that he will not be around forever. He will leave a very well founded and funded club behind him.  We will still be at a disadvantage against parachute payment recipients, but SL has given us the very best chance of competing for promotion and if we keep knocking at the door, eventually our time will come. Clubs like Wigan and Bolton have undergone financial meltdowns and more will probably follow. In these difficult times we should count ourselves lucky that City are secure and in good hands who have a plan to make us even more secure in years to come.  Maybe a bit of gratitude and respect is on order?

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@Prinny should probably add that when I say “back the players” I probably mean “don’t call out individuals”...it can be collective criticism, that’s perfectly fine.

And when Ashley Williams forearms someone in the face? What do you want to see and hear?

For me it's certainly not rumours signing him back!

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4 hours ago, Redland said:

I agree with the first paragraph of your post 100%. The point is very well-made.

With regard to the second paragraph  I don’t think there would’ve been a problem if the club had appointed Holden at the outset. The criticism surrounding his appointment arises from the fact that we were told we needed a “breath of fresh air” and someone who could “take us to the next level”. The five week selection process during which quality candidates, including Chris Hughton, were interviewed only served to increase expectations.  The subsequent appointment of Holden who was part of the previous failed regime and who has no managerial experience understandably came as a great disappointment to many fans, including myself, who had believed the comments SL made on Talksport.

As for your comment that you are willing to bet that those criticising are not highly successful individuals then obviously I cannot speak for others but so far as I am concerned you would have lost your bet.

The expectations of the fans should have been informed by the fact that MA had said that there would be a thorough process to get the right person. Many on here automatically assumed that this would be a Hughton or Cook and were disappointed that it ended up being Dean Holden.  Now either you think that there was not a thorough process, or you must come to the conclusion that we have the best person for the job. Of course we are not able to judge this without knowing the detailed job specification and if the people being interviewed could subscribe to the game plan.  I have faith that the board would have tried to find the best solution for the club and not tried to pick a complete dud. They have seen Dean working for four years, so maybe they know a bit more about his abilities than the "experts" on this forum.

Congratulations on not being a failure in life and I wish you the best of fortune, but you elegantly make my point because you are not one of the more rabid and rude critics on this forum. 

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16 hours ago, lenred said:

It’ll certainly be very interesting on here if there’s anything less than two wins in the first two games.  Couldn’t ask for a kinder two fixtures really.  

I’m not so sure, Coventry may just make up for potential lack of Championship quality with enthusiasm and carry over their winning habit from the lower league.

 I would prefer to play them after they’ve run out of steam a bit and start to stress out.

It is like the plucky underdogs in the cup they will give it their all in this game and we will need to be at our best to take the sting out of play. 

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