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10 minutes ago, Banjo Island said:

How have we learnt from our mistakes jon over the years lansdown has given us lumsden osman fawthrop tinnion and millen and now holden i cant see how weve learnt from our mistakes 

In how we run the club. We have a clear philosophy now which has got us to where we are.

Just because some inexperienced managers failed doesn't mean this one will.

Plenty of examples of inexperienced managers doing superb jobs. So for me the way the club is run was the big thing that needed changing, which we have now done.

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15 minutes ago, Banjo Island said:

How have we learnt from our mistakes jon over the years lansdown has given us lumsden osman fawthrop tinnion and millen and now holden i cant see how weve learnt from our mistakes 

Not that I am usually one to let facts get in the way of some mudslinging but laying the appointments of Lumsden and Osman at Lansdown’s door is mighty harsh!

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4 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

In how we run the club. We have a clear philosophy now which has got us to where we are.

Just because some inexperienced managers failed doesn't mean this one will.

Plenty of examples of inexperienced managers doing superb jobs. So for me the way the club is run was the big thing that needed changing, which we have now done.

How has it changed ?

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1 minute ago, awbb said:

Not that I am usually one to let facts get in the way of some mudslinging but laying the appointments of Lumsden and Osman at Lansdown’s door is mighty harsh!

Yeah I was thinking that but wasn't sure! Was very young when going down the gate in those days so don't know who brought those guys in.

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32 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

In how we run the club. We have a clear philosophy now which has got us to where we are.

Just because some inexperienced managers failed doesn't mean this one will.

Plenty of examples of inexperienced managers doing superb jobs. So for me the way the club is run was the big thing that needed changing, which we have now done.

What’s this clear philosophy? Genuine question not trying to be funny as I see this a lot but to me it’s just words.  The only thing that’s clear to me is that we don’t have a clear philosophy. 

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3 minutes ago, lenred said:

What’s this clear philosophy? Genuine question not trying to be funny as I see this a lot but to me it’s just words.  The only thing that’s clear to me is that we don’t have a clear philosophy. 

As a club, sign young/undervalued players who can be developed and sold for profit being the main clear one with regard to recruitment 

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1 minute ago, lenred said:

What’s this clear philosophy? Genuine question not trying to be funny as I see this a lot but to me it’s just words.  The only thing that’s clear to me is that we don’t have a clear philosophy. 

Sign young players, bring through youth.

If we don't make it to the prem then we sell some on for big profits which allows us to bring in more quality. Kalas and Wells for example being real quality, I assume brought in using funds from player sales.

It certainly is working imo when looking at the quality we have in our squad. And many of which will improve as they're young.

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6 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

As a club, sign young/undervalued players who can be developed and sold for profit being the main clear one with regard to recruitment 

That’s not a club philosophy at all. That’s what all clubs try to do bar the really big players ie your Madrids, Juves, Manchester clubs etc. If SL valued that way of working so much he would get us to CAT1 status but he doesn’t as is his prerogative.  

2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Sign young players, bring through youth.

If we don't make it to the prem then we sell some on for big profits which allows us to bring in more quality. Kalas and Wells for example being real quality, I assume brought in using funds from player sales.

It certainly is working imo when looking at the quality we have in our squad. And many of which will improve as they're young.

See above.  Signing young players in the hope of making a profit is not a philosophy. 

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1 minute ago, lenred said:

That’s not a club philosophy at all. That’s what all clubs try to do bar the really big players or your Madrids, Man I’d etc. If SL valued that way of working so much he would get us to CAT1 status but he doesn’t as is his prerogative.  

I can't see how CAT1 status would make any difference.

Kids would still go to bigger clubs as a preference and bigger clubs could still take kids from us.

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2 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I can't see how CAT1 status would make any difference.

Kids would still go to bigger clubs as a preference and bigger clubs could still take kids from us.

Im no expert but one would presume that the coaching, the facilities and structure would need to be of a higher standard than it currently is, which in turn would attract better younger players and help to keep them, which in turn should mean more players of required standard coming through. If there’s no point to it why do other teams bother with it? 

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3 minutes ago, lenred said:

That’s not a club philosophy at all. That’s what all clubs try to do bar the really big players ie your Madrids, Juves, Manchester clubs etc. If SL valued that way of working so much he would get us to CAT1 status but he doesn’t as is his prerogative.  

See above.  Signing young players in the hope of making a profit is not a philosophy. 

CAT 1 status could well be a bad move imo.

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Just now, lenred said:

Im no expert but one would presume that the coaching, the facilities and structure would need to be of a higher standard than it currently is, which in turn would attract better younger players and help to keep them, which in turn should mean more players of required standard coming through. If there’s no point to it why do other teams bother with it? 

In order to nick the better kids off of CAT2/3 academies.

But as I said, and I'm no expert either, we are in a pecking order which probably dictates that 90% of CAT1 academies are at a lot bigger club than us and could easily take the better kids from us if they wish.

Couple that with another couple of million to set up and run - is it worth it ?

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1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

In order to nick the better kids off of CAT2/3 academies.

But as I said, and I'm no expert either, we are in a pecking order which probably dictates that 90% of CAT1 academies are at a lot bigger club than us and could easily take the better kids from us if they wish.

Couple that with another couple of million to set up and run - is it worth it ?

To be fair I have no idea on the finer details but one would hope and expect that the club has completed thorough due diligence as to the reasons why we don’t go for it. But my point was that if our ‘philosophy’ is developing youngsters to sell on we would surely invest in CAT1 status. As it is we don’t, and our aim to buy young and develop to sell at a profit is no different to any other team and thus this idea that we have some clear philosophy is just not true as far as I can see. 

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6 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

In order to nick the better kids off of CAT2/3 academies.

But as I said, and I'm no expert either, we are in a pecking order which probably dictates that 90% of CAT1 academies are at a lot bigger club than us and could easily take the better kids from us if they wish.

Couple that with another couple of million to set up and run - is it worth it ?

I don't think we will be losing many to bigger clubs anymore. We haven't lost any since Maddox and Kane from what I know.

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13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

CAT 1 status could well be a bad move imo.

Why is that?  Surely it would make sense to get the best young players?  Or am I missing something?  MIlions are wasted on rubbish signings imo, why not invest in the academy?

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Just now, Coin-op said:

Why is that?  Surely it would make sense to get the best young players?  Or am I missing something?  MIlions are wasted on rubbish signings imo, why not invest in the academy?

Costs loads doesn't it? And not really sure it would be worth it.

Our main aim seems to be bringing through local youth from a very young age through the age groups. As well as scouting local young talent that come to the club a bit later in Harvey Richards, Owura Edwards, Semenyo, Janneh etc.

And occasionally bringing in a Jonny Smith, Bakinson, Hinds type who are scouted from other parts of the country.

But I see us doing that less now we seem to be improving the quality coming through. Tinnion saying the next lot are really special. 

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Costs loads doesn't it? And not really sure it would be worth it.

Our main aim seems to be bringing through local youth from a very young age through the age groups. As well as scouting local young talent that come to the club a bit later in Harvey Richards, Owura Edwards, Semenyo, Janneh etc.

And occasionally bringing in a Jonny Smith, Bakinson, Hinds type who are scouted from other parts of the country.

But I see us doing that less now we seem to be improving the quality coming through. Tinnion saying the next lot are really special. 

Costs loads?  One Joe Bryan or Lloyd Kelly......and it's paid for.  I do not see your logic?  CAT 1 is without doubt the way to go IMHO.

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3 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Its not our ground we just play in it like others do, at a cost, we (the club) have no say on its occupants or its use.

What actual share does our club get from the catering/concerts corperate use etc? Can you give me a clue what this flow of income is/will be?

Many competitors have also passed us by while we just stay here nice and safe, persistantly cashing in on our assets and going no-where, nothing against our new manager (apart from his lack of exp) but there our so much better exp managers out there who could of put some fire and belief in the fans bellys, another chance for BCFC to make a mark....missed. 

Your last 2 sentences are a little superfan`ish imo, there are many fans who have/will follow our club all over the country and in all 4 divisions, whatever/forever.

For strategic reasons the ground is owned by another company within the group and all have the same owners.  Nothing wrong with that at all. In unforeseen difficult circumstances this could prove very useful! 

You can hardly complain about the cash that SL puts into Bristol City and how he funds other clubs within the group.  You may have missed the times that he wrote off some pretty massive debts.

It is a long race and has not finished yet. We do not have the benefit of parachute payments and we have to live within the constraints of FFP.  The income from the various infrastructure initiatives should help us be even more competitive as time goes on.

I am not a super-fan but just an old duffer who loves his football club and finds it difficult to see why other fans adopt such negative attitudes towards every aspect of Bristol City instead of supporting enthusiastically.  I do not give conditional support as long as the club choose a manager or players that pass my personal tests of approval. I respect the highly intelligent board and owners and believe that they will do their best for the club after considering all the evidence. That does not mean that they will get everything right, because they are human beings, but I will not condemn them for any mistakes, just as I would not condemn a player for missing what looks like a simple chance. If you find such support offensive, then I think that you have more of a problem than I do. 

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15 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Costs loads doesn't it? And not really sure it would be worth it.

Our main aim seems to be bringing through local youth from a very young age through the age groups. As well as scouting local young talent that come to the club a bit later in Harvey Richards, Owura Edwards, Semenyo, Janneh etc.

And occasionally bringing in a Jonny Smith, Bakinson, Hinds type who are scouted from other parts of the country.

But I see us doing that less now we seem to be improving the quality coming through. Tinnion saying the next lot are really special. 

Am sure costs could be covered by selling a few.  We would have far more talented youth players coming through?  Still don't understand why not go for Cat 1.  

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3 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Costs loads?  One Joe Bryan or Lloyd Kelly......and it's paid for.  I do not see your logic?  CAT 1 is without doubt the way to go IMHO.

Its not easy to produce those players consistently every season. Especially Kelly who is one of England's most promising centre backs. Under 21 regular.

The ones we sell from coming through academy or young signing sold for a profit is what pays our huge wage bill and is what generates transfer funds isn't it?

It seems hard enough as it is. But to go CAT 1 could really make things difficult financially. Though I am not one that really reads into all the financial stuff so better people on here for all that!

Another thing is would being Cat 1 really make us much stronger? Can we even pinch the best youth from cat 2 or lower academies around the country?

We would still be competing with the other cat 1 clubs to pinch some of those. And if they see a pathway at their cat 2 club then they might not want to move to a completely different part of the county to join us anyway.

 

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5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Its not easy to produce those players consistently every season. Especially Kelly who is one of England's most promising centre backs. Under 21 regular.

The ones we sell from coming through academy or young signing sold for a profit is what pays our huge wage bill and is what generates transfer funds isn't it?

It seems hard enough as it is. But to go CAT 1 could really make things difficult financially. Though I am not one that really reads into all the financial stuff so better people on here for all that!

Another thing is would being Cat 1 really make us much stronger? Can we even pinch the best youth from cat 2 or lower academies around the country?

We would still be competing with the other cat 1 clubs to pinch some of those. And if they see a pathway at their cat 2 club then they might not want to move to a completely different part of the county to join us anyway.

 

Wouldn't the best youth players left over (after the bigger clubs have had their pick) rather come to us as a Cat 1 academy rather than stay in a Cat 2?

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2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I give you Cardiff and Swansea, two of our closest and most comparable rivals. 

Both below us in the league pyramid when SL took over Bristol City in 2001.

Compare their achievements to ours over the past 20 years. Quarter finals of a major european competition, two major cup final appearances, multiple seasons in the Premier League including top half finishes, multiple promotions to the Premier League. 

All done with a very similar level of investment to us, probably less in the case of Swansea.

Be interested to hear you, or indeed SL, argue your way out of that one.

To be clear, we aren't talking about both clubs being a little more successful than us, they have completely dwarfed our achievements since SL has been in charge, starting from a lower position. 

I believe that both the clubs you mention has the benefit of new stadia and significant investment and were well under way with their projects before FFP. Personally I do not follow the fortunes of other clubs because I am not a football fan but a Bristol City fan. On the rare occasions when I have had to watch a none Bristol City match, I find myself wishing it was over because I have no emotional engagement.  The two clubs that you mentioned also have had the benefit of parachute payments.  Our project is working to a different timescale and strategy with the aim of being sustainable.  The infrastructure income should prove very useful in this respect.  I remain very optimistic but do not mind if success is not immediate because we are competing in a very difficult league under difficult rules with teams that have the massive advantage of parachute payments.  I like the fact that so many fans are angry and frustrated that we have not won promotion yet. The fact is that we are, to one degree or another, in contention. I find it exciting and will not criticise the club for trying to do things in a sustainable manner. Makes very good sense to me.

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2 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Its not easy to produce those players consistently every season. Especially Kelly who is one of England's most promising centre backs. Under 21 regular.

The ones we sell from coming through academy or young signing sold for a profit is what pays our huge wage bill and is what generates transfer funds isn't it?

It seems hard enough as it is. But to go CAT 1 could really make things difficult financially. Though I am not one that really reads into all the financial stuff so better people on here for all that!

Another thing is would being Cat 1 really make us much stronger? Can we even pinch the best youth from cat 2 or lower academies around the country?

We would still be competing with the other cat 1 clubs to pinch some of those. And if they see a pathway at their cat 2 club then they might not want to move to a completely different part of the county to join us anyway.

 

Does Southampton's academy and the clubs approach make it more likely or less to produce the players it does from its academy?

How would an extra million (or two) pounds a season make things difficult financially for BCFC?  Academy costs are exempt v financial fair play rules. If viewed financially the academy has been a large profit making financial success. The FC loses money. 

Your last paragraph. Joe Bryan did not, neither Kelly and Reid. Bristol City's competition in the South West is  Argyle, Exeter, Rovers ... 

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1 minute ago, Coin-op said:

Wouldn't the best youth players left over (after the bigger clubs have had their pick) rather come to us as a Cat 1 academy rather than stay in a Cat 2?

Don't know but we don't seem to have had much problems since Herbie Kane and Jacob Maddox were pinched from us in keeping our category 2 players.

I don't really know much about it so I might be wrong! Would like to know more.

I'm sure the club have looked at the financial part of it, the pros and cons, and decided it's not worth going with at this moment.

 

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1 minute ago, Cowshed said:

Does Southampton's academy and the clubs approach make it more likely or less to produce the players it does from its academy?

How would an extra million (or two) pounds a season make things difficult financially for BCFC?  Academy costs are exempt v financial fair play rules. If viewed financially the academy has been a large profit making financial success. The FC loses money. 

Your last paragraph. Joe Bryan did not, neither Kelly and Reid. Bristol City's competition in the South West is  Argyle, Exeter, Rovers ... 

I think it costs a fair bit more than an extra million or 2 doesn't it?

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1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I think it costs a fair bit more than an extra million or 2 doesn't it?

Academy running costs are circa two million a season at Cat 1, Cat 2 its below a million - Figure for Cat 2 was 800k when City gained cat 2 status. 

Clubs can and do spend a lot more e.g. Man City.

 

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4 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Its not our ground we just play in it like others do, at a cost, we (the club) have no say on its occupants or its use.

What actual share does our club get from the catering/concerts corperate use etc? Can you give me a clue what this flow of income is/will be?

Many competitors have also passed us by while we just stay here nice and safe, persistantly cashing in on our assets and going no-where, nothing against our new manager (apart from his lack of exp) but there our so much better exp managers out there who could of put some fire and belief in the fans bellys, another chance for BCFC to make a mark....missed. 

Your last 2 sentences are a little superfan`ish imo, there are many fans who have/will follow our club all over the country and in all 4 divisions, whatever/forever.

I’d hope that a manager/head coach’s job is to put fire and belief into the bellies of the players. If he does that and it translates into performances on the pitch,  then surely that is what puts fire and belief into fans’ bellies. 

As an example, Mourinho was just the sort of better, experienced manager to put fire back into the bellies of Manu (and Spurs) fans who could;t wait to see the back of him! By comparison OGS was an underwhelming appointment, but he seems to have managed what Mourinho failed to do, as far as the team performing on the pitch is concerned.

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2 hours ago, awbb said:

Not that I am usually one to let facts get in the way of some mudslinging but laying the appointments of Lumsden and Osman at Lansdown’s door is mighty harsh!

Agreed. Way off beam with those I think. But hey, why let fact get in the way of a good rant.

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3 hours ago, Banjo Island said:

How have we learnt from our mistakes jon over the years lansdown has given us lumsden osman fawthrop tinnion and millen and now holden i cant see how weve learnt from our mistakes 

He came up trumps with Alan Dicks, Joe Jordan, and Terry Cooper to be fair...

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