Eliasson - Departure confirmed

[mozo]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

If LJ genuinely wanted Palmer (and I believe he did), then don’t go out and buy Szmodics.  Be patient.  But typical of LJ and MA (they are both at fault here), MA pondering to LJ’s whims, and MA needing to satisfy his ego of being able to do deals - whether that be selling for large sums, or dealing with the big Prem clubs.

I'm not sure if it was MA pandering to LJ or the other way round? Remember LJ hinting that he had to be convinced by the stats that Szmodics was a good signing. 

[chinapig]

3 minutes ago, mozo said:

I'm not sure if it was MA pandering to LJ or the other way round? Remember LJ hinting that he had to be convinced by the stats that Szmodics was a good signing. 

Engval, Eisa, Adelakun, Szmodics, Palmer. All players it seems LJ did not want. DH doesn't seem to rate the latter three either. That seems to tell a story.

In contrast, DH is clearly getting the experienced Championship players he wants. Perhaps he is less compliant than LJ, has put his foot down and forced a change in policy?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

I'm not sure if it was MA pandering to LJ or the other way round? Remember LJ hinting that he had to be convinced by the stats that Szmodics was a good signing. 

I’m talking about transfers generally.  Think both have big egos and recruitment despite being of decent players always looks to be devoid of too much thinking about how they fit.  Think they are both as bad as each other.  

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, chinapig said:

Engval, Eisa, Adelakun, Szmodics, Palmer. All players it seems LJ did not want. DH doesn't seem to rate the latter three either. That seems to tell a story.

In contrast, DH is clearly getting the experienced Championship players he wants. Perhaps he is less compliant than LJ, has put his foot down and forced a change in policy?

The major advantage Holden has is that he’s recruiting to a system.  Not rocket science is it.  99% of OTIBers have found it hard to know who we were gonna go after because we had no idea of system LJ was focussing on.

Under Holden, we can all see we needed a type of CM, a RWB and a LCB.  Striker too, although less important than the other 3 imho.  Looks like by Monday we will have 3 out of the 4.

[chinapig]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m talking about transfers generally.  Think both have big egos and recruitment despite being of decent players always looks to be devoid of too much thinking about how they fit.  Think they are both as bad as each other.  

Agreed but it seems to me that Ashton in particular had an eye on trading to raise money from sell-ons rather than to benefit the team, in at some cases at least.

It seems LJ complied but compounded the problem with tactical confusion.

[Bat Fastard]

41 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Agreed but it seems to me that Ashton in particular had an eye on trading to raise money from sell-ons rather than to benefit the team, in at some cases at least.

It seems LJ complied but compounded the problem with tactical confusion.

If a player's agent tells him that he can quadruple his money and play in a higher league, what do you think that MA would have to do to keep him?

[chinapig]

19 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

If a player's agent tells him that he can quadruple his money and play in a higher league, what do you think that MA would have to do to keep him?

That wasn't my point, as you will see from other posts I have made.

I was referring to some signings that seem to have been made simply in the hope that their value would increase in an inflationary market rather than filling a need. Thanks to Covid that is no longer an option in the EFL I think.

It is pretty obvious that LJ didn't rate the likes of Adelakun, Szmodics and Palmer and that Dean doesn't want them either.

Ashton is a very good negotiator, particularly when it comes to maximising fees when we sell, but stockpiling players who get little or no first team action is no longer an option.

 

[GrahamC]

19 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Eliasson interestingly on the bench suggests to me he may be off. As surely he'd be starting otherwise, especially with so many missing.

Same with Palmer. How on earth does he get in if he can't get in today. Williams, Walsh, Morrell and Nagy still to return.

Eliasson didn’t start any of Holden’s 5 games in charge, just because he featured in a few friendlies it never suggested for a minute he was going to start in the side once competitive football returned.

Palmer is rightly behind Paterson & will have to bide his time.

[GrahamC]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

Engval, Eisa, Adelakun, Szmodics, Palmer. All players it seems LJ did not want. DH doesn't seem to rate the latter three either. That seems to tell a story.

In contrast, DH is clearly getting the experienced Championship players he wants. Perhaps he is less compliant than LJ, has put his foot down and forced a change in policy?

May be.

The other thing he is clearly doing is not pissing about with these “ones for the future”, Joe Williams, Martin & Mawson (which seems a done deal) are both for now & also part of a clearer plan.

Not 100% sure how we accommodate Martin & Fam but it is a far more coherent strategy & a good start for Holden.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Eliasson didn’t start any of Holden’s 5 games in charge, just because he featured in a few friendlies it never suggested for a minute he was going to start in the side once competitive football returned.

Palmer is rightly behind Paterson & will have to bide his time.

That’s how I see it too.  Paterson in possession of the shirt, his to lose.

Friendlies are about getting minutes into players.  The only team of any relevance was the West Brom one.

Might be a kick up the arse to some!

[INCRED]

6 hours ago, chinapig said:

Engval, Eisa, Adelakun, Szmodics, Palmer. All players it seems LJ did not want. DH doesn't seem to rate the latter three either. That seems to tell a story.

In contrast, DH is clearly getting the experienced Championship players he wants. Perhaps he is less compliant than LJ, has put his foot down and forced a change in policy?

Got to say, the players brought in so far under Holden and will probably add Mawson today are all players that give a bit of steel down the middle and a bit of know how with Martin/Mawson

its all well and good having flair players as we have in abundance but you need a lot more than that to compete at the top of this league 

You only need to look at Leeds, hard working aggressive team with a couple of flair players who stick to a system and philosophy and fit the right players into it 

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

Back on subject I see GMcG is convinced Eliasson will move this summer, and he will be a cheap option. But in the current climate what is cheap? Would £5m be a reasonable sell price? 

 

[Kid in the Riot]

56 minutes ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Back on subject I see GMcG is convinced Eliasson will move this summer, and he will be a cheap option. But in the current climate what is cheap? Would £5m be a reasonable sell price? 

Said for ages, unfortunately he isn't going to sign a new deal so we need to sell. 

[brad blit]

Not just the player obviously wanting to leave, I’m not convinced by the idea of playing him as another no10 (behind striker/CAM) either so why not sell whilst stock is obv high from last year

[Top Robin]

2 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

Back on subject I see GMcG is convinced Eliasson will move this summer, and he will be a cheap option. But in the current climate what is cheap? Would £5m be a reasonable sell price? 

 

For the right team he is a £20m player.

I think he will feel a bit hard done by at City. 

On and off he has been our most exciting and creative player for a couple of seasons but Johnson never persevered with him consistently.

He was in and out of the side and doing bit part in matches.

Wherever he goes I think he may become a star and we will probably live to regret releasing him.

 

[steveybadger]

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Said for ages, unfortunately he isn't going to sign a new deal so we need to sell. 

Everything favours the player in this situation, given he knows we are certain to want to sell rather than risk losing for nothing. Then factor in the season he has Just had and our chances this season.

[frenchred]

Thought he went missing when starting games last year. Impact sub at best

[CliftonCliff]

His form was patchy, but then it would be if you’re forever in and out of the side, not knowing whether you’re going to be starting, a sub, or left out of the squad entirely. What he has demonstrated repeatedly is that he is both extremely skilled and a potential match-winner. Certainly the best crosser of the ball at the club and one of the best in the Championship.

His misfortune is that he joined a club where the head coach never really seemed to be able to decide what was his best starting eleven, and where there was a preference for a style of play that couldn’t accommodate orthodox wingers. Under different circumstances, I suspect he might already have become an established star at this level. 

He needs to move for his own good. I will personally be sorry to see him leave, but it’s looked increasingly inevitable for some time. For me he is definitely one that we have failed to get the best out of. In the right team he could become something rather special. I hope MA uses his negotiating skills to get a good deal for the club, because I feel pretty sure his value will increase.

[Sturny]

48 minutes ago, frenchred said:

Thought he went missing when starting games last year. Impact sub at best

Gotta give him credit, he is hell of an impact sub! 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Third highest assists in the division.

Is he just an orthodox winger or could he evolve into a wide left? The latter would become a relevant factor for 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 setup at times,

[bcfc01]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Third highest assists in the division.

Is he just an orthodox winger or could he evolve into a wide left? The latter would become a relevant factor for 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 setup at times,

2nd highest wasn't it ? No matter - his assist numbers are extremely high given the minutes he had on the pitch.

He's been a victim of chop and change, if he had played 40 odd games then his stats would probably be the best in the division. 

Does he fit into a 3-5-2 ? No, unfortunately. Although Holden has been trying him out in a more central role - I think he'd be devastating wide in a 4-3-3

He needs to move on and its just a matter of time imo.

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

His form was patchy, but then it would be if you’re forever in and out of the side, not knowing whether you’re going to be starting, a sub, or left out of the squad entirely. What he has demonstrated repeatedly is that he is both extremely skilled and a potential match-winner. Certainly the best crosser of the ball at the club and one of the best in the Championship.

His misfortune is that he joined a club where the head coach never really seemed to be able to decide what was his best starting eleven, and where there was a preference for a style of play that couldn’t accommodate orthodox wingers. Under different circumstances, I suspect he might already have become an established star at this level. 

He needs to move for his own good. I will personally be sorry to see him leave, but it’s looked increasingly inevitable for some time. For me he is definitely one that we have failed to get the best out of. In the right team he could become something rather special. I hope MA uses his negotiating skills to get a good deal for the club, because I feel pretty sure his value will increase.

You know I love my data....I’ve said in the past he gets me off my seat a lot, but his crossing, despite the oohs and aahs is not hugely accurate.  I think much of that is that he’s often coming in off the right wing into his left foot and decreasing the angle and increasing the difficulty.  It is exciting though, I’m not gonna pooh-pooh that....and a lot of balls flash past the far post.

From a pure crosses successful percentage - 41%

of selected players who cross a reasonable amount:

Pato - 67% Derby / 29% City

Hunt - 51%

Dasilva - 49%

O’Dowda - 38%

Rowe - 35%

If I had the money to spend on the data I reckon I could prove that if he crossed from the Left Wing on his left foot, you would see a marked improvement.  Hunt and Dasilva are crossing in the main from their natural side and their success rate is pretty good.

However, he crosses twice as often (7.4 times per 90) than the next best - Hunt (3.8), which is also the 2nd highest (behind James McClean) for wide midfielders in the Champ.  Pros and cons in summary!!!

[chipdawg]

16 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

2nd highest wasn't it ? No matter - his assist numbers are extremely high given the minutes he had on the pitch.

He's been a victim of chop and change, if he had played 40 odd games then his stats would probably be the best in the division. 

Does he fit into a 3-5-2 ? No, unfortunately. Although Holden has been trying him out in a more central role - I think he'd be devastating wide in a 4-3-3

He needs to move on and its just a matter of time imo.

I would have loved to have seen him on the right and Palmer on the left of Fan, both in free roles and told to attack the box. Our fullbacks (or wingbacks in a 343) provide the width and we can play with a holding midfielder (or perhaps 2 if using a 433 to compensate for those two not tracking back as much.

Eliasson has been wasted by City in my opinion, I think he could have absolutely torn this division apart if used correctly

[Super]

Why do people think we will only play a 3-5-2 formation? 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Super said:

Why do people think we will only play a 3-5-2 formation? 

Because the head-coach pretty much says so every interview he gives.

[Super]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Because the head-coach pretty much says so every interview he gives.

I would put money on it that we won't be playing that formation for too long.

[CliftonCliff]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You know I love my data....I’ve said in the past he gets me off my seat a lot, but his crossing, despite the oohs and aahs is not hugely accurate.  I think much of that is that he’s often coming in off the right wing into his left foot and decreasing the angle and increasing the difficulty.  It is exciting though, I’m not gonna pooh-pooh that....and a lot of balls flash past the far post.

From a pure crosses successful percentage - 41%

of selected players who cross a reasonable amount:

Pato - 67% Derby / 29% City

Hunt - 51%

Dasilva - 49%

O’Dowda - 38%

Rowe - 35%

If I had the money to spend on the data I reckon I could prove that if he crossed from the Left Wing on his left foot, you would see a marked improvement.  Hunt and Dasilva are crossing in the main from their natural side and their success rate is pretty good.

However, he crosses twice as often (7.4 times per 90) than the next best - Hunt (3.8), which is also the 2nd highest (behind James McClean) for wide midfielders in the Champ.  Pros and cons in summary!!!

Thanks for that, Dave. Interesting - and mildly surprising - figures, though I am of that school of thought that considers an over-reliance on stats to be a questionable method of assessing a player's worth. Very useful to have access to this stuff, of course, otherwise you're in danger of going to the other extreme and relying purely on subjective perception, which is arguably even more dodgy, but I think it important to take a balanced approach. The stats have to be given some context, a good example of which is one you have just provided yourself by pointing out LJ's habit of playing Eliasson on the right (if indeed he played him at all), which in my view substantially reduces the effectiveness of his crossing, irrespective of how accurate it might be: it's simple an inherently less dangerous angle from which to deliver the ball. 

Anyway, all a bit academic now, as he's clearly on his way out, whether it be sooner or later. I fear we've let a valuable asset slip through our fingers, in a way, without ever making the most of what he had to offer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

44 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

2nd highest wasn't it ? No matter - his assist numbers are extremely high given the minutes he had on the pitch.

He's been a victim of chop and change, if he had played 40 odd games then his stats would probably be the best in the division. 

Does he fit into a 3-5-2 ? No, unfortunately. Although Holden has been trying him out in a more central role - I think he'd be devastating wide in a 4-3-3

He needs to move on and its just a matter of time imo.

Fully agree.

Not 3-5-2 no, 3-4-3 however I wonder. As you say his assist numbers to minute ratio- fantastic.

Agreed- the chopping and changing did him- and us- few favours.

Saleable asset and wouldn't fit into a 3-5-2 but some variants of system with a back 3 I wonder. Talking of 3-5-2 unless we field the correct players in the position- I'd consider pattly for tactical reasons Weimann as one of the strike pair and Paterson as one of the CM 3 at least for some games- we could quite easily have our wingbacks caught 2 v 1 and isolated, cut out the game or overloaded and bypassed and given they could be integral to how we set up, that would be very bad- whereas Eliasson wide left but not wing in a 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 variant could help us offensively pushing the opposition back and out of possession, pulling into more of an orthofox wing role help DaSilva a bit- 3-5-2, I see a risk of the aforementioned isolation and bypassing etc.

[Tangle Foot]

On 04/09/2020 at 20:19, steviestevieneville said:

Would be strange to get rid of szmodics and Palmer with only pato as that “type” of player in the squad . Would prefer to keep szmodics personally . Just can’t see it working for Palmer here. As you say though , wages 

Don't forget Liam Walsh, I would put him in the Pato/Palmer "type" of player.

Also the only way were are going to persuade him to sign a new contract is if he gets a decent amount of playing time. Of course he'll need to earn that playing time too.

COYR.

[chipdawg]

5 minutes ago, Tangle Foot said:

Don't forget Liam Walsh, I would put him in the Pato/Palmer "type" of player.

Also the only way were are going to persuade him to sign a new contract is if he gets a decent amount of playing time. Of course he'll need to earn that playing time too.

COYR.

Walsh doesn't play as far up the field as Palmer/Pato (as in his average position). I think he'll be closer to Brownhill when he finds his feet- maybe less defensively aware, but more creative