Davefevs Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 36 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said: Thanks for that, Dave. Interesting - and mildly surprising - figures, though I am of that school of thought that considers an over-reliance on stats to be a questionable method of assessing a player's worth. Very useful to have access to this stuff, of course, otherwise you're in danger of going to the other extreme and relying purely on subjective perception, which is arguably even more dodgy, but I think it important to take a balanced approach. The stats have to be given some context, a good example of which is one you have just provided yourself by pointing out LJ's habit of playing Eliasson on the right (if indeed he played him at all), which in my view substantially reduces the effectiveness of his crossing, irrespective of how accurate it might be: it's simple an inherently less dangerous angle from which to deliver the ball. Anyway, all a bit academic now, as he's clearly on his way out, whether it be sooner or later. I fear we've let a valuable asset slip through our fingers, in a way, without ever making the most of what he had to offer. I’ve spent a lot of time during lockdown (being out of contract) to really revisit my data. Little things like being able to fine tune it by minutes played in games, compare this season’s data to last season’s, both players and team. Interestingly if I filter Eliasson’s data by games where he’s played less than 30 minutes (predominantly games he comes on as sub)....his crosses per 90 goes up to 7.8, and accuracy to 71%. Thats accuracy increase is staggering imho. Suggests he’s a very effective sub against tiring defences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: I’ve spent a lot of time during lockdown (being out of contract) to really revisit my data. Little things like being able to fine tune it by minutes played in games, compare this season’s data to last season’s, both players and team. Interestingly if I filter Eliasson’s data by games where he’s played less than 30 minutes (predominantly games he comes on as sub)....his crosses per 90 goes up to 7.8, and accuracy to 71%. Thats accuracy increase is staggering imho. Suggests he’s a very effective sub against tiring defences. For once subjective impression (well, mine, anyway) and objective stats actually do coincide. However, while plenty of people would probably have guessed at his success as an impact sub, what most wouldn't have predicted, myself included, is the magnitude of the difference you point out. That is, as you say, a quite startling statistic. I am starting to wonder if we'll see him in a City shirt again. All the emphasis on 3-5-2 that we keep hearing about suggests his chances of selection are slim, and the new signings clearly mean we have to offload - and substantially at that. I have a feeling he'll be out the door soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 minute ago, JonDolman said: Don't know if Villa rumours were true. Or Burnley being previously interested. Lazio, Fenerbace and whoever else. But if it is not a prem or top european side then it wouldn't surprise me if Brentford came in for him. I think he'd suit being wide of a front 3 they go with. Interesting notion. Hadn't thought of that one. Not a bad shout, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 minute ago, CliftonCliff said: For once subjective impression (well, mine, anyway) and objective stats actually do coincide. However, while plenty of people would probably have guessed at his success as an impact sub, what most wouldn't have predicted, myself included, is the magnitude of the difference you point out. That is, as you say, a quite startling statistic. I am starting to wonder if we'll see him in a City shirt again. All the emphasis on 3-5-2 that we keep hearing about suggests his chances of selection are slim, and the new signings clearly mean we have to offload - and substantially at that. I have a feeling he'll be out the door soon. Yep, stats can paint a different picture sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviestevieneville Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 35 minutes ago, Tangle Foot said: Don't forget Liam Walsh, I would put him in the Pato/Palmer "type" of player. Also the only way were are going to persuade him to sign a new contract is if he gets a decent amount of playing time. Of course he'll need to earn that playing time too. COYR. Changed my mind since I wrote that tbh . He’s obviously not at the level Dean wants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC OF HUSKVARNA Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 I’m 100% sure that he can play wingback and then he could compete in our system. But if Holden doesn’t think so he must leave! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT The Optimist Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 23 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Holden did actually say last night that Eliasson can play wing back. Yes he did, and they are waiting to hear back re the contract offer ? DH appears to want to keep NE but like many here I cannot see him playing a lot..... We have wing backs who would be in front off him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, JonDolman said: Holden did actually say last night that Eliasson can play wing back. The bit he didn’t add was how well he thinks he could play RWB (it was the right side he specifically mentioned)!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon bristol Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 47 minutes ago, Davefevs said: The bit he didn’t add was how well he thinks he could play RWB (it was the right side he specifically mentioned)!! If he could play rwb it would solve a massive problem, but i really cant see hes cut out for that. he is our most talented ball player though, and hes a lot younger than pato,,,, i wonder how he would do as first choice in that attacking midfield spot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangle Foot Posted September 8, 2020 Report Share Posted September 8, 2020 4 hours ago, chipdawg said: Walsh doesn't play as far up the field as Palmer/Pato (as in his average position). I think he'll be closer to Brownhill when he finds his feet- maybe less defensively aware, but more creative I’ve gotta admit I’ve not seen Walshy’s heat maps, or average position maps. My judgement is purely based on what I’ve read and saw on TV last season. I’m quite excited to see if what he do. Always thought he would work better in a midfield 3. Just frazzled my brain thinking about all the ‘midfield 3’ combinations DH could select, depending on the opposition. Choosing from, when all fit, and still at the club (not sold or out on loan): Bakinson, Brunt, COD, Eliasson, Massengo, Morrell, Morton, Nagy, Palmer, Pato, Rowe, Walsh, Williams. I think League 1 loans for Bakinson & Morton would be great for their development. Sell Eliasson, if he won’t sign a new contract. COD cover for DaSilva; Rowe cover for left-side CB & Midfield; Brunt cover for DaSiva & Midfield. It’s really making my head spin COYR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidoldfart Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 With the Villa transfer fund reportedly £100m and they have just spent the best part of £50m that leaves a sizeable chunk for a bid - Nic Eliasson .With their track record of paying big money we should expect at least £10-£15m .NE is equally as good a footballer as Matty Cash . Anything less would be disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBB Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, davidoldfart said: With the Villa transfer fund reportedly £100m and they have just spent the best part of £50m that leaves a sizeable chunk for a bid - Nic Eliasson .With their track record of paying big money we should expect at least £10-£15m .NE is equally as good a footballer as Matty Cash . Anything less would be disappointing. Not with only 1 year remaining. I’d imagine it would be closer to £5m. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, SBB said: Not with only 1 year remaining. I’d imagine it would be closer to £5m. .........but if you then apply the Mark Ashton Aston Villa transfer coefficient, it brings that figure put to £7.5 to £10m! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 25, 2020 Report Share Posted September 25, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuffle Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Davefevs said: Take whatever we can get for him as doesn’t fit the system & won’t sign his contract. After Thursday, I think we can safely say Villa aren’t interested as was dreadful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 11 minutes ago, Shuffle said: Take whatever we can get for him as doesn’t fit the system & won’t sign his contract. After Thursday, I think we can safely say Villa aren’t interested as was dreadful I agree that City should sell and he was dreadful on Thursday but, being generous to him, he was played out of position. Play him in a position & system that suits his style of play and he’s a better player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dolman Pragmatist Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 52 minutes ago, pongo88 said: I agree that City should sell and he was dreadful on Thursday but, being generous to him, he was played out of position. Play him in a position & system that suits his style of play and he’s a better player I don’t give much credit to this notion of him being played out of position. He’s a wide player; he was played as a wide player. Most wide players are expected to be able to play on either side these days, and I don’t see a huge difference between winger and wing back, particularly if you have a central defender on you side if the pitch who is used to playing as a full back or wing back. It may not have been completely ideal for him, but he was hardly being played at centre forward or centre back. If you’re an orthodox winger who can only play on one side in a 442 then your options are going to be very limited these days! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said: I don’t give much credit to this notion of him being played out of position. He’s a wide player; he was played as a wide player. Most wide players are expected to be able to play on either side these days, and I don’t see a huge difference between winger and wing back, particularly if you have a central defender on you side if the pitch who is used to playing as a full back or wing back. It may not have been completely ideal for him, but he was hardly being played at centre forward or centre back. If you’re an orthodox winger who can only play on one side in a 442 then your options are going to be very limited these days! It’s a really different role, you need a lot of defensive awareness to play it. I agree a 442 style winger is a bit outdated, but Eliasson isn’t. He can play on either side and in a variety of wide roles whether that’s a 442 or 433. A 532 doesn’t suit him however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 I thought it was really telling playing him against Villa. I wouldn't be surprised if they bid for him. But I am not sure if he's quick enough for a Dean Smith type team. I would've thought a move abroad would suit his style better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pongo88 Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 43 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said: I don’t give much credit to this notion of him being played out of position. He’s a wide player; he was played as a wide player. Most wide players are expected to be able to play on either side these days, and I don’t see a huge difference between winger and wing back, particularly if you have a central defender on you side if the pitch who is used to playing as a full back or wing back. It may not have been completely ideal for him, but he was hardly being played at centre forward or centre back. If you’re an orthodox winger who can only play on one side in a 442 then your options are going to be very limited these days! There is a difference between a wingback and a winger. The primary duty of a wing back is to defend with attacking as a secondary role. The primary duty of a winger is to attack with dropping back into midfield as and when necessary. Positional play is also vastly different in these two positions. Some players can make the switch, eg Clive Whitehead, but others can’t. If we apply your logic to other positions, a central midfield player could easily play as centre half, and a central attacking midfield player could easily play as centre forward. It doesn’t work like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said: I don’t give much credit to this notion of him being played out of position. He’s a wide player; he was played as a wide player. Most wide players are expected to be able to play on either side these days, and I don’t see a huge difference between winger and wing back, particularly if you have a central defender on you side if the pitch who is used to playing as a full back or wing back. It may not have been completely ideal for him, but he was hardly being played at centre forward or centre back. If you’re an orthodox winger who can only play on one side in a 442 then your options are going to be very limited these days! Forgetting the position he played on Thursday, I was disappointed with what he did WITH the ball in their final third....which is his bread and butter. He went outside the full-back early on and got a cross in, but the full-back learned quickly and stopped him after that in the main. Defensively, his awareness and positioning is always gonna be his downfall. It is when he plays as a winger, so no surprise he found it difficult deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 33 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Forgetting the position he played on Thursday, I was disappointed with what he did WITH the ball in their final third....which is his bread and butter. He went outside the full-back early on and got a cross in, but the full-back learned quickly and stopped him after that in the main. Defensively, his awareness and positioning is always gonna be his downfall. It is when he plays as a winger, so no surprise he found it difficult deeper. Thought once Guilbert stayed with him the first time he was reluctant to even try and take him on afterwards. I have noticed this before with Eliasson. Once there is a bit of a challenge be it a quicker or bigger fullback he becomes very passive and it nullifies his one great attribute which is his crossing. Add that to the fact he isn’t a threat to shoot it makes him anonymous more often than not. Perhaps why he has been more useful off the bench when opposition is a bit more tired and less aggressive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 Think it is in everyone’s best interests if this happens now. He doesn’t have a natural home in a 3-5-2, we still have far too many midfield players & he gets a chance to play more regularly in a decent league. We get a player off the wage bill & some income, too. Personally think the talk of Villa being even remotely interested in him is absolute nonsense, he played in midweek because we pretty much reverted to the team that beat Northampton. Be lucky to get much more than 4m Euros for him, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted September 26, 2020 Report Share Posted September 26, 2020 The importance is that there is interest in the player, meaning that he should find a home for his talents. I am sure that we’ve not seen the best of him but you can’t win them all. I enjoy watching the lad play and am a little sad to let such a talent go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Army 75 Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 Apparently Gary Penrice the old Gashead striker was at Ashton Gate scouting NE against villa . Been linked with Celtic before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 44 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said: Apparently Gary Penrice the old Gashead striker was at Ashton Gate scouting NE against villa . Been linked with Celtic before Good move for him, and there’s already the Larsson connection to Sweden. He could become a star in the SPL and play in Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuffle Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 Saw something on twitter last night saying Fenerbeche had made a £3m offer. Needs to be gone by next Monday as cannot run risk of losing for free but not sure how legit the source is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cidered abroad Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 On 08/09/2020 at 23:12, Tangle Foot said: I’ve gotta admit I’ve not seen Walshy’s heat maps, or average position maps. My judgement is purely based on what I’ve read and saw on TV last season. I’m quite excited to see if what he do. Always thought he would work better in a midfield 3. Just frazzled my brain thinking about all the ‘midfield 3’ combinations DH could select, depending on the opposition. Choosing from, when all fit, and still at the club (not sold or out on loan): Bakinson, Brunt, COD, Eliasson, Massengo, Morrell, Morton, Nagy, Palmer, Pato, Rowe, Walsh, Williams. I think League 1 loans for Bakinson & Morton would be great for their development. Sell Eliasson, if he won’t sign a new contract. COD cover for DaSilva; Rowe cover for left-side CB & Midfield; Brunt cover for DaSiva & Midfield. It’s really making my head spin COYR. We have a gem in Bakinson and you would loan him to League One? Incredible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 31 minutes ago, cidered abroad said: We have a gem in Bakinson and you would loan him to League One? Incredible! To be fair to @Tangle Foot he wrote this back on the 8th Sept, we have seen a lot more of "T" since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrahamC Posted September 29, 2020 Report Share Posted September 29, 2020 Looks like Celtic, Fenerbahce & Nimes are all interested. Seems the most likely of our horde of midfielders to depart now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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