Ashton Gate 8 question.

[Prinny]

Excuse the ignorance, I've really never been bothered to look into the exact details of this but the kit announcement today made me think of a couple of questions.

So their choice was stick to their contract, club goes bust or take a pay off to cancel their contracts?

When a business goes bust, people who are owed money have to wait and might not get everything they are owed. So it's a gamble. Maybe business laws were radically different then?

Obviously grateful that they chose the latter, but once they had their contracts torn up they could play as a non contract player elsewhere and then play for someone else later right?

I mean, maybe it's a short term loss, and salaries weren't what they are now but if they're any good another team would snap them up?

And looking at the post city careers, it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers, and they took a  guaranteed pay off over gambling over waiting for more money? That's an uncharitable way to look at it so these are questions rather than opinions! Looking to be educated here. Thanks in advance!

 

[YGBjammy]

Good article on it here, worth a read: https://www.theguardian.com/football/that-1980s-sports-blog/2020/apr/08/eight-bristol-city-players-money-save-club-ashton-gate-eight-coronavirus

[CodeRed]

18 minutes ago, Prinny said:

 

And looking at the post city careers, it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers, and they took a  guaranteed pay off over gambling over waiting for more money? That's an uncharitable way to look at it so these are questions rather than opinions! Looking to be educated here. Thanks in advance!

 

Oh dear

Grossly overpaid bad footballers !   Chris Garland Geoff Merrick Trevor Taunton etc

They were on £400 a week and got 10k to walk away. Really overpaid weren't they.

[phantom]

22 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Excuse the ignorance, I've really never been bothered to look into the exact details of this..........

......it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers

This part of your comment is VERY ignorant, why do you assume they are "overpaid bad footballers"????

[Davefevs]

I believe players like Trevor Tainton’s business and health suffered as a result too.  Was nothing like today’s world of football.

[Major Isewater]

3 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Oh dear

Grossly overpaid bad footballers !   Chris Garland Geoff Merrick Trevor Taunton etc

They were on £400 a week and got 10k to walk away. Really overpaid weren't they.

Out of curiosity what does that equate to in today’s terms ? 
 

We were amongst the best payers in the top division, we probably needed to be to attract the talent to our unfashionable , newly promoted club .

 

[BTRFTG]

17 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Excuse the ignorance, I've really never been bothered to look into the exact details of this but the kit announcement today made me think of a couple of questions.

So their choice was stick to their contract, club goes bust or take a pay off to cancel their contracts?

When a business goes bust, people who are owed money have to wait and might not get everything they are owed. So it's a gamble. Maybe business laws were radically different then?

Obviously grateful that they chose the latter, but once they had their contracts torn up they could play as a non contract player elsewhere and then play for someone else later right?

I mean, maybe it's a short term loss, and salaries weren't what they are now but if they're any good another team would snap them up?

And looking at the post city careers, it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers, and they took a  guaranteed pay off over gambling over waiting for more money? That's an uncharitable way to look at it so these are questions rather than opinions! Looking to be educated here. Thanks in advance!

 

Just about spot on.

Best read is For The Good Of The Game (the history of the PFA) as the events took place a day or so after Gordon Taylor took office - shows how long ago it was. ...

Players could keep their contracts, see the club go bust and become creditors, point being that might take years and during that time the club would retain their registrations preventing them from playing elsewhere. Else they could mutually agree to terminated their contracts and be given their registrations allowing them to seek alternate employment immediately.

Lest not forget the 8 were paid around 50% of their remaining contract values, it's not as though they left with nothing and far more generous than the average Joe would get in terms of redundancy.

The fact they played so few matches and at lower standards clearly showed City had offered stupid contracts to players who were once good but then long past it or, frankly, players who were never up to much.

Fans around at the time certainly didn't hold them in high regard given many of their pronouncements at the time, as evidenced by the poor attendance at their testimonial.

 

[phantom]

22 minutes ago, YGBjammy said:

Good article on it here, worth a read: https://www.theguardian.com/football/that-1980s-sports-blog/2020/apr/08/eight-bristol-city-players-money-save-club-ashton-gate-eight-coronavirus

I remember going to an AG8 event at the ground many years back, and I was surprised how many of the group still had a lot of ill feeling towards the club for the way they were treated.

I recognise and appreciate their sacrifices, but I always feel a bit uncomfortable for the guys involved every time this gets brought up

Those around at the time will know about the personal hatred directed at them, and the pain and suffering it caused to their families.

I do wonder whether they will be recognised in anyway personally after using their names etc in our kit this season?

[Merrick's Marvels]

"bad players"?

jesus christ almighty!

[Bris Red]

20 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Oh dear

Grossly overpaid bad footballers !   Chris Garland Geoff Merrick Trevor Taunton etc

They were on £400 a week and got 10k to walk away. Really overpaid weren't they.

400 a week and a 10k payout was good money back then mind but yeah to call them ‘over payed’ is a bit wide of the mark i agree.

[BTRFTG]

11 minutes ago, CodeRed said:

Oh dear

Grossly overpaid bad footballers !   Chris Garland Geoff Merrick Trevor Taunton etc

They were on £400 a week and got 10k to walk away. Really overpaid weren't they.

Players at the time were on 4 to 5 times average earnings (cf the 40-50 times our highest earners now pocket.) Thus they remained comparatively overpaid in the eyes of the average Joe at the time - but that was the privilege of being a shirt career footballer.  Forget not a number of other benefits the club provided - subsidised housing for example.  

One might also interpret the comment as suggesting ( not for the first time) City had overpaid the existing talent pool for the services they had to offer. History proves that to be true.

Fact is the many woes that befell the 8 after were largely of their own making. Their criticism of both club and fans isn't forgotten by those of us who were around at the time. We owe them nothing, never did, never shall.

[TammyAB]

Weren’t these players pressured and threatened by the fans to rip up their contracts?

[BTRFTG]

4 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

"bad players"?

jesus christ almighty!

I take it you never saw Marshall & Aitken play?

[elhombrecito]

18 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Out of curiosity what does that equate to in today’s terms ? 
 

We were amongst the best payers in the top division, we probably needed to be to attract the talent to our unfashionable , newly promoted club .

 

£400 per week in 1982, is around £1,400 per week in today's money. £10,000 would be around £35,500.

[BTRFTG]

Just now, TammyAB said:

Weren’t these players pressured and threatened by the fans to rip up their contracts?

No. After things unravelled for them they liked to play that card but the reality of what their options were were clearly outlined to them by the PFA. They were always going to agree to cancel their contracts, what fans picked up on and hated was they attempted to prevaricate to extract the most for themselves almost taking the club to the brink.

[spudski]

Look at the length of the contracts given to players in 1978 and how old those players were at the time... that's where the problem arose.

Always thought something fishy about the length given their ages at the time.

[bcfc01]

18 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Excuse the ignorance, I've really never been bothered to look into the exact details of this but the kit announcement today made me think of a couple of questions.

So their choice was stick to their contract, club goes bust or take a pay off to cancel their contracts?

When a business goes bust, people who are owed money have to wait and might not get everything they are owed. So it's a gamble. Maybe business laws were radically different then?

Obviously grateful that they chose the latter, but once they had their contracts torn up they could play as a non contract player elsewhere and then play for someone else later right?

I mean, maybe it's a short term loss, and salaries weren't what they are now but if they're any good another team would snap them up?

And looking at the post city careers, it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers, and they took a  guaranteed pay off over gambling over waiting for more money? That's an uncharitable way to look at it so these are questions rather than opinions! Looking to be educated here. Thanks in advance!

 

They weren't bad players having played in the top division and Geoff Merrick had opportunities to leave for much bigger clubs - and they weren't that well paid in comparison to other clubs at that level, about £400 a week I think. Collier left for £500 a week to Coventry who were annual relegation battlers for instance.

Most were into their 30's in 1982 so getting a new club wasn't that easy and having to up roots at that age with families for a one or two year contract in the 3rd or 4th division on peanuts wasn't really that attractive. Some of them did so but most ended up as milkmen, postmen, security guards etc as most players did in those days. Of the Bristol lads, Merrick built up a construction business I understand, Tainton lost his business and ran a pub for while I think and ended up as a security guard at Oldbury Power Station. Rodgers became head of department at Clifton College, and Garland was diagnosed with Parkinsons disease not long after. 

The club totally mismanaged the situation and panicked over the Collier issue, they should have put relegation clauses into the contracts, not that it would have made much difference as the income had dropped dramatically with the vastly reduced attendances and virtually no commercial income.

It would be a brave man that approached Geoff Merrick or Trevor Tainton and asked them what they thought of their names being on the new shirt ! The pressure put upon them by the club and the threats and abuse they received from "supporters" pressuring them into ripping up their contracts was disgraceful - the same "supporters" who deserted the club on relegation but filled the ground with nigh on 40k against Liverpool. 

The only ones that came out of it all with any dignity and respect were those eight shat upon players imo.

 

[BTRFTG]

3 minutes ago, elhombrecito said:

£400 per week in 1982, is around £1,400 per week in today's money. £10,000 would be around £35,500.

Blue collar average earnings in '82 were £133 per week for the average Joe. Footballers weren't rich by today's players standards, but they weren't badly off either.

[Prinny]

29 minutes ago, phantom said:

This part of your comment is VERY ignorant, why do you assume they are "overpaid bad footballers"????

Because of their post Ashton Gate Eight careers?

And being part of a team spiralling down the leagues?

If they were good, (because good is a comparison), then how did the relegation(s) happen? Why weren't they picked up by top teams after their contracts were torn up? And I'd say giving people contracts that can ruin a business is probably overpaying them? If not for their quality as in market value, but overpaying based on what the club could afford? If they weren't overpaid, then there was no risk to them tearing up the contract, because obviously another team would come in and pay them the same or more, because they were valued correctly? Except the risk of getting injured before the new contract.

I don't think any of those statements is unreasonable as a proposition, which is why I ask people who were there and have more knowledge to comment

 

[bcfc01]

1 minute ago, Prinny said:

Because of their post Ashton Gate Eight careers?

And being part of a team spiralling down the leagues?

If they were good, (because good is a comparison), then how did the relegation(s) happen? Why weren't they picked up by top teams after their contracts were torn up? And I'd say giving people contracts that can ruin a business is probably overpaying them? If not for their quality as in market value, but overpaying based on what the club could afford? If they weren't overpaid, then there was no risk to them tearing up the contract, because obviously another team would come in and pay them the same or more, because they were valued correctly?

I don't think any of those statements is unreasonable as a proposition, which is why I ask people who were there and have more knowledge to comment

 

Most of them were into their 30s and in the third division and well into their contracts paying top league money - you work it out.

 

[BTRFTG]

3 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

They weren't bad players having played in the top division and Geoff Merrick had opportunities to leave for much bigger clubs - and they weren't that well paid in comparison to other clubs at that level, about £400 a week I think. Collier left for £500 a week to Coventry who were annual relegation battlers for instance.

Most were into their 30's in 1982 so getting a new club wasn't that easy and having to up roots at that age with families for a one or two year contract in the 3rd or 4th division on peanuts wasn't really that attractive. Some of them did so but most ended up as milkmen, postmen, security guards etc as most players did in those days. Of the Bristol lads, Merrick built up a construction business I understand, Tainton lost his business and ran a pub for while I think and ended up as a security guard at Oldbury Power Station. Rodgers became head of department at Clifton College, and Garland was diagnosed with Parkinsons disease not long after. 

The club totally mismanaged the situation and panicked over the Collier issue, they should have put relegation clauses into the contracts, not that it would have made much difference as the income had dropped dramatically with the vastly reduced attendances and virtually no commercial income.

It would be a brave man that approached Geoff Merrick or Trevor Tainton and asked them what they thought of their names being on the new shirt ! The pressure put upon them by the club and the threats and abuse they received from "supporters" pressuring them into ripping up their contracts was disgraceful - the same "supporters" who deserted the club on relegation but filled the ground with nigh on 40k against Liverpool. 

The only ones that came out of it all with any dignity and respect were those eight shat upon players imo.

 

Collier (the finest centre half ever to grace this club) left, not for money, rather because and despite all logic, the management preferred to play the lump Rodgers, one presumes for his goal scoring prowess at both ends.

Collier's departure also doesn't explain why players were offered contracts that would have taken them to their very late 30s.

Merrick and others started to bad mouth the club as soon as the situation was explained to them. In his case he often conflates the 'me and Richie to Arsenal' tale, again that having nothing to do with City and contracts. The reason he didn't end up in North London was they decided to persist with the young centre half who'd broken through their senior ranks the previous year - a bloke called O'Leary. Ditto Richie and the then record signing McDonald.

Fans turned when it became apparent they were all for looking after number 1 and couldn't give a stuff for saving the club. 

 

[Prinny]

4 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Most of them were into their 30s and in the third division and well into their contracts paying top league money - you work it out.

I mean I have, it's that they were given too much money and too long a contract for their ability based on what the club could afford. If they're on top league money and playing in the 3rd division, something isn't right. Obviously. That's not their fault, they're entitled to take what they're offered. And it's sport so it's risk not science.

But clearly, they were bad vs their competition hence being relegated, and they were overpaid because they were on (low) top league money and didn't offer (low) top level play. Unless the divisions were all the same standard? If that's what you're claiming?

[Simon bristol]

I started watching in the mid 80s, approximately age 8, so didnt get to know about the ashton gate 8 at the time...

but, I understand they were the core of the squad that were relegated from top to bottom division, which lead to them being played top division wages while at a lower league club....

in which case, how would we describe their performance on the pitch at that time?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Without them ripping up contracts, no club- ultimately?

Feels complex though.  I have read, but more than happy to be corrected- that we had one of the top wage bills in the country when in the top division- top 5 anyway. 

We got relegated at an awful time too- we got relegated at just a time where football attendances were in general in fall and the game was hitting a very bad period nationally. Football attendances were a key part of revenue in those days I believe, perfect storm- trouble at football, relegation, no mega TV money, paractute payments- Pfft? Attendances falling, social unrest in the country as a whole, rising unemployment etc etc- all adds up.

Then there's nothing like parachute payments or diverse revenue streams like today, huge wagebill, fixed term contracts- disaster! Still doesn't explain why we couldn't at the least stabilise in the 2nd tier though.

[GrahamC]

33 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I take it you never saw Marshall & Aitken play?

Those two were certainly anomalies in the whole situation.

From memory we signed Julian Marshall on a free transfer from Hereford Utd (a 4th division team) upon our relegation from the top flight, so a pretty odd signing.

Peter Aitken was released by Rovers and we then signed him on a free transfer to replace Gerry Gow, who we had just sold to Man City.

I completely understood how the contracts of the 6 players who had been regulars in the top flight were unsustainable as we plummeted the leagues but it always struck me that unless we had overpaid in terms of wages for Aitken, we were taking the opportunity to move these 2 on, because I cannot believe that they were on anything like the same sort of wages as Sweeney, Merrick, Rodgers, Tainton, Mann or Garland.

[Clevedon Red]

31 minutes ago, spudski said:

Look at the length of the contracts given to players in 1978 and how old those players were at the time... that's where the problem arose.

Always thought something fishy about the length given their ages at the time.

Didn’t we give Whitehead an 11 year contract?

[Silvio Dante]

As with anything of this nature, there are shades of grey. And it’s good to see there actually being a debate here.

I wasn’t around for the AG8 but looking at it from the players perspective, the following has to be true.

- Undoubtedly they were well paid. But they weren’t life changing paid. After football, they would have to get another job - and for players like Merrick, this was their last football contract

- With that in mind, even though 50% of your contract is good - it’s not great. You know you’re never earning that again, and it’s better to have 4 years full earnings than a lump sum of 2 years unless you have another job to walk into - which they didn't

- And yes, there has to be self awareness. Clearly, the 8 were part of a side which had performed terribly and were more than past their best. So they would have again known that they’d never earn that money again, while still not being set up for life

- But - undoubtedly - the contracts were a daft idea both in terms of length and non relegation wage drop. That’s totally on the club.

So, what I’d say - taking the emotion out of it - any one of us would have probably held out as long as the 8 did for what they got. And they probably realised they could get no more.

Do I think they “had a dream to save our football team”? Probably not. Do I think they had a dream to take care of their families? Yes, and I’d totally respect them for that. Do I also think the event should be remembered and the 8 honoured for their service? Absolutely.

I don’t see them as bad guys. I don’t see them as saviours. I see them as humans (yay) who did what ultimately had to be done for both them and the club.

 

[phantom]

42 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

We owe them nothing, never did, never shall.

I would be interested for you to explain in greater detail why you feel this way @BTRFTG ?

40 minutes ago, TammyAB said:

Weren’t these players pressured and threatened by the fans to rip up their contracts?

This was what I was alluding to, many of the eight have spoken about how they were getting knocks on the door in the night and family members being threatened in the street

There is certainly a dark side to this story

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, Clevedon Red said:

Didn’t we give Whitehead an 11 year contract?

Yes...and I believe he was 24 at the time.

[GrahamC]

20 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

I started watching in the mid 80s, approximately age 8, so didnt get to know about the ashton gate 8 at the time...

but, I understand they were the core of the squad that were relegated from top to bottom division, which lead to them being played top division wages while at a lower league club....

in which case, how would we describe their performance on the pitch at that time?

That isn’t completely the case, the side was actually 14th in the old 3rd division when we made the players redundant & had we not been made to play almost a youth team as a result of this (we went on an 11 match run during this time when we drew 2 & lost 9), we would definitely have survived.

There were a combination of factors here, those players who had served us so well were in many cases past it, we were spooked by the Gary Collier business & clearly gave too many contracts for too long. Others (Aitken & Marshall) were poor.

It also happened so quickly the second relegation under Bob Houghton to the third division was a shock, but we badly struggled to score goals & were really poor away & so were in the third tier for the first time in ages before we knew it, then the financial stuff (bizarrely we then decided to spend money on Mick Harford , a superb player at completely the wrong time) really kicked in..