Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

IGNORED

Ashton Gate 8 question.


Recommended Posts

49 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

"bad players"?

jesus christ almighty!

This is how football forums work, you can say “excuse my ignorance” and then make an unfounded sweeping generalisation in the same post..👎

  • Like 1
  • Hmmm 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GrahamC said:

This is how football forums work, you can say “excuse my ignorance” and then make an unfounded sweeping generalisation in the same post..👎

You can also clip quotes and not read the entire comment.

"And looking at the post city careers, it just looks like we grossly overpaid bad footballers, and they took a  guaranteed pay off over gambling over waiting for more money? That's an uncharitable way to look at it so these are questions rather than opinions! Looking to be educated here. Thanks in advance!"

Is this the case?

Is not

This is the case!

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

That isn’t completely the case, the side was actually 14th in the old 3rd division when we made the players redundant & had we not been made to play almost a youth team as a result of this (we went on an 11 match run during this time when we drew 2 & lost 9), we would definitely have survived.

There were a combination of factors here, those players who had served us so well were in many cases past it, we were spooked by the Gary Collier business & clearly gave too many contracts for too long. Others (Aitken & Marshall) were poor.

It also happened so quickly the second relegation under Bob Houghton to the third division was a shock, but we badly struggled to score goals & were really poor away & so were in the third tier for the first time in ages before we knew it, then the financial stuff (bizarrely we then decided to spend money on Mick Harford , a superb player at completely the wrong time) really kicked in..

First time in the 3rd tier since 1964/65.

  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always found the "Eight men had a dream..." song a bit misguided, although obviously well-intentioned as a tribute.

I don't think it is at all fair to criticise any player, especially in the days when players were not paid a fortune nor guaranteed work after their playing days ended, for expecting their employment contracts to be honoured or for holding out for the best possible deal for them and their families.

But it seems to me in hindsight (I was born in 1982) that it was obviously a massive balls-up to give players that length of contract in the first place and it seems to me - created a mess which hurt everyone but especially those players. They ultimately did what they had to do but it certainly wasn't a "dream to save a football team". It was salvaging the best possible outcome from an absolute absolute shambles. Admittedly that scans far worse in a terrace chant!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

I take it you never saw Marshall & Aitken play?

You know what I meant but I'll  spell it out anyway...

To describe Geoff Merrick, Trevor Tainton, Gerry Sweeney, Chris Garland, Jimmy Mann and David Rodgers as, quote, "bad players", unquote, is so far wide of the mark, so divorced from reality, that it's laughable, barely worthy of a reply.

But you knew that.

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Out of curiosity what does that equate to in today’s terms ? 
 

We were amongst the best payers in the top division, we probably needed to be to attract the talent to our unfashionable , newly promoted club .

 

Suppose the easiest way to compare it, was that back in 82, the average weekly wage for a man in 82 was about £150 (for a woman in full time employment it was £98) and the average house cost back in 82 was 22.5k

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

You know what I meant but I'll  spell it out anyway...

To describe Geoff Merrick, Trevor Tainton, Gerry Sweeney, Chris Garland, Jimmy Mann and David Rodgers as, quote, "bad players", unquote, is so far wide of the mark, so divorced from reality, that it's laughable, barely worthy of a reply.

But you knew that.

Wouldn't say they were bad players at all, but they were party to consecutive relegations that saw City fall from the top flight to bottom of the 4th division.

Not (by any stretch) trying to pin that on their shoulders, but the contracts they were on made it difficult to move them on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Wouldn't say they were bad players at all, but they were party to consecutive relegations that saw City fall from the top flight to bottom of the 4th division.

Not (by any stretch) trying to pin that on their shoulders, but the contracts they were on made it difficult to move them on.

Seeing as they left us when we were just below halfway in the 3rd division, they clearly weren’t.

Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

As with anything of this nature, there are shades of grey. And it’s good to see there actually being a debate here.

I wasn’t around for the AG8 but looking at it from the players perspective, the following has to be true.

- Undoubtedly they were well paid. But they weren’t life changing paid. After football, they would have to get another job - and for players like Merrick, this was their last football contract

- With that in mind, even though 50% of your contract is good - it’s not great. You know you’re never earning that again, and it’s better to have 4 years full earnings than a lump sum of 2 years unless you have another job to walk into - which they didn't

- And yes, there has to be self awareness. Clearly, the 8 were part of a side which had performed terribly and were more than past their best. So they would have again known that they’d never earn that money again, while still not being set up for life

- But - undoubtedly - the contracts were a daft idea both in terms of length and non relegation wage drop. That’s totally on the club.

So, what I’d say - taking the emotion out of it - any one of us would have probably held out as long as the 8 did for what they got. And they probably realised they could get no more.

Do I think they “had a dream to save our football team”? Probably not. Do I think they had a dream to take care of their families? Yes, and I’d totally respect them for that. Do I also think the event should be remembered and the 8 honoured for their service? Absolutely.

I don’t see them as bad guys. I don’t see them as saviours. I see them as humans (yay) who did what ultimately had to be done for both them and the club.

 

:clap:

Bravo that man , top , top post .

Well done . 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

That isn’t completely the case, the side was actually 14th in the old 3rd division when we made the players redundant & had we not been made to play almost a youth team as a result of this (we went on an 11 match run during this time when we drew 2 & lost 9), we would definitely have survived.

There were a combination of factors here, those players who had served us so well were in many cases past it, we were spooked by the Gary Collier business & clearly gave too many contracts for too long. Others (Aitken & Marshall) were poor.

It also happened so quickly the second relegation under Bob Houghton to the third division was a shock, but we badly struggled to score goals & were really poor away & so were in the third tier for the first time in ages before we knew it, then the financial stuff (bizarrely we then decided to spend money on Mick Harford , a superb player at completely the wrong time) really kicked in..

What was the Gary Collier business? If you don't mind giving a brief explanation.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A lot of assumptions being made about the players by folk who weren't around at the time.  It's wrong to say they must have been crap because they got relegated twice. That wasn't how it was. By the time the insolvency arose all the better players had left, the problems started in the old Div 1, players like Hunter Royle and of course Collier left and weren't replaced. Top players like Ritchie, Whitehead, Gerry Gow, Kevin Mabbutt,Harford were sold.  Others like Cormack had gone too. The one's that were left hadn't been sold because they had little value because of their age. They were on decent money but I don't think they had the long contracts . As I recall the long contracts were only given to the more valuable players with Whitehead getting 11 years, and Ritchie,Gow 7 years.  Marshall and Rodgers were basically reserve players, and wouldn't have been on as much as .say, Merrick.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Packman said:

What was the Gary Collier business? If you don't mind giving a brief explanation.

He became the first player to leave a club under freedom of contract. Prior to that you couldn’t leave a club even if your contract expired until they released you.

City lost him to Coventry for a tribunal set fee & so as a result tied down most players to incredibly long contracts, Clive Whitehead is the most commonly quoted one (11 years!) which meant as they lost form or got old, they became impossible to shift, especially as we had dropped from the first division to the third. 

We did manage a fire sale with some, Ritchie joined Sunderland, Gow Man City & ironically Whitehead to West Brom, but 6 of the Ashton Gate 8 come into this category.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BTRFTG said:

Collier (the finest centre half ever to grace this club) left, not for money, rather because and despite all logic, the management preferred to play the lump Rodgers, one presumes for his goal scoring prowess at both ends.

Collier's departure also doesn't explain why players were offered contracts that would have taken them to their very late 30s.

Merrick and others started to bad mouth the club as soon as the situation was explained to them. In his case he often conflates the 'me and Richie to Arsenal' tale, again that having nothing to do with City and contracts. The reason he didn't end up in North London was they decided to persist with the young centre half who'd broken through their senior ranks the previous year - a bloke called O'Leary. Ditto Richie and the then record signing McDonald.

Fans turned when it became apparent they were all for looking after number 1 and couldn't give a stuff for saving the club. 

 

No one was offered contracts to take them to their late 30's. Whitehead was the only one rumoured to have been offered an inordinately long contract and he'd already left for West Brom. the year before. Merrick was 30 at the time the club almost went bust - no way did he have a contract to take him to his late 30's.

You're wrong about Arsenal preferring MacDonald and O'Leary. They were very keen to get Merrick and Ritchie, who, out of loyalty to the club, and genuine belief they would go up with City, turned down a big money joint move to Highbury. Merrick in particular, being a boyhood City fan, had stated it was his ambition to Captain City to the top league, which he duly accomplished.

MacDonald was still at Newcastle, and was many months away from making his losing debut for Arsenal against City, and O'Leary was a very different type of CB and physical stature to Merrick and the 2 would no doubt have complimented each other very well.Tom Ritchie turned out to be an extraordinary player, very much at home in the top league where he was consistently outstanding throughout our 4 year tenure.

Returning to City in the 4th under TC, Tom Ritchie is a genuine Bristol City legend, obviously far more so than the likes of the absurdly heralded Marshall and Aitken, 2 extremely ordinary lower division short term players at AG with no affection for Bristol City who just happened to get caught up in the whole sorry business.

 

  • Like 8
  • Thanks 2
  • Flames 1
  • Robin 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Set me thinking the plaque to “The Eight” was outside the Atyeo Stand old players entrance, is it still there or has it been moved to a more prominent position? In my opinion that logo should have been displayed on the back of our shirts since they introduced wording on the back, without them we would not have a club to support today.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

No one was offered contracts to take them to their late 30's. Whitehead was the only one rumoured to have been offered an inordinately long contract and he'd already left for West Brom. the year before. Merrick was 30 at the time the club almost went bust - no way did he have a contract to take him to his late 30's.

You're wrong about Arsenal preferring MacDonald and O'Leary. They were very keen to get Merrick and Ritchie, who, out of loyalty to the club, and genuine belief they would go up with City, turned down a big money joint move to Highbury. Merrick in particular, being a boyhood City fan, had stated it was his ambition to Captain City to the top league, which he duly accomplished.

MacDonald was still at Newcastle, and was many months away from making his losing debut for Arsenal against City, and O'Leary was a very different type of CB and physical stature to Merrick and the 2 would no doubt have complimented each other very well.Tom Ritchie turned out to be an extraordinary player, very much at home in the top league where he was consistently outstanding throughout our 4 year tenure.

Returning to City in the 4th under TC, Tom Ritchie is a genuine Bristol City legend, obviously far more so than the likes of the absurdly heralded Marshall and Aitken, 2 extremely ordinary lower division short term players at AG with no affection for Bristol City who just happened to get caught up in the whole sorry business.

 

Never said Merrick & Ritchie weren't top players and legends in their time but, as with Basso & Orr, though Arsenal had made enquiries it wasn't that a deal couldn't be done or that both players turned down riches to stay with City. Hsving asked the question Arsenal decided to seek other alternatives which included promoting O'Leary from bit part status and working behind the scenes to prize McDonald from his beloved Newcastle. That game at Highbury there had been a chance they'd have played for the other side, but it didn't work out.

Remember Merrick floated around at the back, predominantly as he was too short for the middle which was a huge pity as his movement and passing out from the back was sublime. At full back his lack of stature was more forgiving. Ditto Ritchie who Davies and later Crouch apart, looked as unlikely a forward as one could imagine. For a gangley bloke with not a huge amount of timber he was as strong and robust in the challenge as any.

If they didn't have many years left on their contracts, what were they moaning about?

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Never said Merrick & Ritchie weren't top players and legends in their time but, as with Basso & Orr, though Arsenal had made enquiries it wasn't that a deal couldn't be done or that both players turned down riches to stay with City. Hsving asked the question Arsenal decided to seek other alternatives which included promoting O'Leary from bit part status and working behind the scenes to prize McDonald from his beloved Newcastle. That game at Highbury there had been a chance they'd have played for the other side, but it didn't work out.

Remember Merrick floated around at the back, predominantly as he was too short for the middle which was a huge pity as his movement and passing out from the back was sublime. At full back his lack of stature was more forgiving. Ditto Ritchie who Davies and later Crouch apart, looked as unlikely a forward as one could imagine. For a gangley bloke with not a huge amount of timber he was as strong and robust in the challenge as any.

If they didn't have many years left on their contracts, what were they moaning about?

True.

And it was his brother Steve that the club were really after - a Scotland schoolboy international full back.

Steve and Tom came as a package and, because of his age, Tom was given a pro contract whilst Steve was a 15 year old apprentice and the parents came down as well - I believe they had apprentices lodge with them, could be wrong on that.

Ironically, Tom turned out to be a diamond while younger brother Steve (full back) didn't.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this would've happened if we'd binned Dicksy off in about '73, and appointed Laurie McMenemy. As I, er, was insisting we should do at the time (amazingly prescient, for a six year old. Precocious, even). Or even Alec Ferguson in '78.

I'd have probably gone for Rinus Michels, actually, in about '66/'67, thinking about it now.

Save all this bloody misery. Dicks out! (listen to the people - they know what they're talking about).

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, phantom said:

would be interested for you to explain in greater detail why you feel this way @BTRFTG ?

2 hours ago, TammyAB said:

At the same time hundreds of those who used to occupy the terraces were losing their lifetime, secure jobs on the docks and associated trades. They were neither earning the sums City's players were, neither did they receive 50% of what would have been their guaranteed earnings. They didn't get a testimonial. They didn't spend the next decades bad-mouthing the club.

The story of the 8, often embellished by themselves, is largely a myth. They looked after themselves first ( not unreasonably.) Sadly, they lost their jobs but they weren't placed on the scrapheap, received a decent pay-off and like many ex-pros looked to blame the club and fans for later problems of their own making. That many were crap at business, what's that to do with City?

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Those two were certainly anomalies in the whole situation.

From memory we signed Julian Marshall on a free transfer from Hereford Utd (a 4th division team) upon our relegation from the top flight, so a pretty odd signing.

Peter Aitken was released by Rovers and we then signed him on a free transfer to replace Gerry Gow, who we had just sold to Man City.

I completely understood how the contracts of the 6 players who had been regulars in the top flight were unsustainable as we plummeted the leagues but it always struck me that unless we had overpaid in terms of wages for Aitken, we were taking the opportunity to move these 2 on, because I cannot believe that they were on anything like the same sort of wages as Sweeney, Merrick, Rodgers, Tainton, Mann or Garland.

If the PFA tale is true I think it was as simple as the club having to save £x per week and that equated to the top 8 earners. The 8 could have been 6 or 12. There was no science, simply top trimming.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

None of this would've happened if we'd binned Dicksy off in about '73, and appointed Laurie McMenemy. As I, er, was insisting we should do at the time (amazingly prescient, for a six year old. Precocious, even). Or even Alec Ferguson in '78.

I'd have probably gone for Rinus Michels, actually, in about '66/'67, thinking about it now.

Save all this bloody misery. Dicks out! (listen to the people - they know what they're talking about).

 

Should've got Hugo Meisl in before that war business kicked off again. Sack the board.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, spudski said:

Yes...and I believe he was 24 at the time.

This was a reaction to Collier who left for Coventry.  Club thought if they put players on longer contracts, then they wouldn’t lose players unless they got hefty fees.  They got it wrong! 

2 hours ago, GrahamC said:

That isn’t completely the case, the side was actually 14th in the old 3rd division when we made the players redundant & had we not been made to play almost a youth team as a result of this (we went on an 11 match run during this time when we drew 2 & lost 9), we would definitely have survived.

There were a combination of factors here, those players who had served us so well were in many cases past it, we were spooked by the Gary Collier business & clearly gave too many contracts for too long. Others (Aitken & Marshall) were poor.

It also happened so quickly the second relegation under Bob Houghton to the third division was a shock, but we badly struggled to score goals & were really poor away & so were in the third tier for the first time in ages before we knew it, then the financial stuff (bizarrely we then decided to spend money on Mick Harford , a superb player at completely the wrong time) really kicked in..

And then they had to sell Mick because they couldn’t afford to staged payment based on appearances.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

If the PFA tale is true I think it was as simple as the club having to save £x per week and that equated to the top 8 earners. The 8 could have been 6 or 12. There was no science, simply top trimming.

No way would Marshall have been earning as much as John Shaw..

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Davefevs said:

This was a reaction to Collier who left for Coventry.  Club thought if they put players on longer contracts, then they wouldn’t lose players unless they got hefty fees.  They got it wrong! 

And then they had to sell Mick because they couldn’t afford to staged payment based on appearances.

Harford & Jan Moller were kept as assets of the old company meaning they had to be sold to clear debts. The money went to the old company, not the ‘82 one.

It really was completely uncharted territory, we signed a few players on loan to strengthen the side (including Aiden McCaffrey from Rovers) after this happened but other clubs complained & we were made to send them back.

Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, John Galley said:

Set me thinking the plaque to “The Eight” was outside the Atyeo Stand old players entrance, is it still there or has it been moved to a more prominent position? In my opinion that logo should have been displayed on the back of our shirts since they introduced wording on the back, without them we would not have a club to support today.

Heritage - Bristol City Supporters Club & Trust
The plaque, which was designed, funded and erected by the then Supporters Trust back in 2007/8, was taken down for safekeeping during the redevelopment and is now on the wall in the the SC&T bar.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

Heritage - Bristol City Supporters Club & Trust
The plaque, which was designed, funded and erected by the then Supporters Trust back in 2007/8, was taken down for safekeeping during the redevelopment and is now on the wall in the the SC&T bar.

With respect, should it not be in a more prominent place where all supporters can see it ?

It was paid for by subscriptions by supporters to the ST if I remember correctly - happy to be corrected.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Never said Merrick & Ritchie weren't top players and legends in their time but, as with Basso & Orr, though Arsenal had made enquiries it wasn't that a deal couldn't be done or that both players turned down riches to stay with City. Hsving asked the question Arsenal decided to seek other alternatives which included promoting O'Leary from bit part status and working behind the scenes to prize McDonald from his beloved Newcastle. That game at Highbury there had been a chance they'd have played for the other side, but it didn't work out.

Remember Merrick floated around at the back, predominantly as he was too short for the middle which was a huge pity as his movement and passing out from the back was sublime. At full back his lack of stature was more forgiving. Ditto Ritchie who Davies and later Crouch apart, looked as unlikely a forward as one could imagine. For a gangley bloke with not a huge amount of timber he was as strong and robust in the challenge as any.

If they didn't have many years left on their contracts, what were they moaning about?

It was reported that Arsenal made separate 2 bids, both turned down by the players and the club. Both the players and the club believed we were going up if they stayed and the 2 players would rather have achieved promotion and play in the first division with the group of mates who'd matured at AG together than up sticks and go to Arsenal. Seems almost unbelievable these days, but that's the way it was.

All over the EP if you were in Bristol at the time. Of course Arsenal's team evolved and they brought in other new players, but that doesn't mean those new players wouldn't have played alongside Merrick and Ritchie.

No idea how long players like Tainton, Merrick and Mann had on their contracts but it certainly wouldn't have been enough to take them to nearly 40.

No doubt they thought they were well set up and settled in Bristol for the next 3 or 4 years (guessing) so the potential financial hit and probability of having to move their families from Bristol to continue their careers obviously came as a huge shock.

I don't think of them as heroes or legends over this episode myself - if the club was to keep going it simply had to happen and under those extreme circumstances they were treated as fairly as possible. I think they all understood that perfectly well by deadline day and it's a real shame imo. that Sir Geoffrey in particular seems to have retained such bitterness over the whole regrettable episode because privately he must have fantastic memories of his 14 year stint at his boyhood club, including in it the club's most exciting and successful period of his lifetime.

Just to add I DO think of Merrick, Mann, Tainton, Garland, Sweeney (and Rodgers to a lesser extent) as heroes and legends for their on pitch exploits and length of service for City. Marshall and Aitken obviously not.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

(Post the 'Dragonara Meeting')

Geoff Merrick 31 year old captain commented:

"I am heartbroken. Bitter is not a word I like the sound of. I took my boots into the training ground this morning in the hope that things would not turn out the way they have but I shall be there on Saturday to support the team....

We have gained a lot more than we would have done if we had accepted their ultimatum."

Taylor summed up:

"Considering the serious financial state if the club we feel that the eight have been fairly protected. The financial terms, I believe, should be kept personal and private. There have been many changes in the final offer and we have gone through the many channels of discussion. The position has been looked at by all other clubs in the country. We want to make sure this doesn't happen again."

For context, at the date if the meeting:

City's debt exceeded £1.5m

City had assets valued at £78k

The outstanding balance on the 8 contracts was £290k

City initially offered £58k in compensation

 

I don't believe Merrick ever visited the club until a few years ago and there were many prior interviews in which he stated he'd never do so. The 8 finally received in the region of £160k.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Very enjoyable thread. Great to hear the views of fans who were there at the time.

I was 18 in '82 so remember it well but as I lived in West Somerset at the time and throughout our top flight stay, I missed out on a lot of the finer points and gossip that you when you live and work in the city

I'll never know why the other lot call us the 82ers and seem to think Bristol City finished that day and a new club started the week after. We were still and will always be Bristol City, whoever is at the reigns 

  • Like 3
  • Robin 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

(Post the 'Dragonara Meeting')

Geoff Merrick 31 year old captain commented:

"I am heartbroken. Bitter is not a word I like the sound of. I took my boots into the training ground this morning in the hope that things would not turn out the way they have but I shall be there on Saturday to support the team....

We have gained a lot more than we would have done if we had accepted their ultimatum."

Taylor summed up:

"Considering the serious financial state if the club we feel that the eight have been fairly protected. The financial terms, I believe, should be kept personal and private. There have been many changes in the final offer and we have gone through the many channels of discussion. The position has been looked at by all other clubs in the country. We want to make sure this doesn't happen again."

For context, at the date if the meeting:

City's debt exceeded £1.5m

City had assets valued at £78k

The outstanding balance on the 8 contracts was £290k

City initially offered £58k in compensation

 

I don't believe Merrick ever visited the club until a few years ago and there were many prior interviews in which he stated he'd never do so. The 8 finally received in the region of £160k.

Not sure what you call "a few years" but I remember chatting to him there, I knew him through work, well over 20 years ago 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Seems almost unbelievable these days, but that's the way it was.

 

Basso and Orr. 

Xmas transfer window when we were riding high and looked as if only disaster could prevent us from going up, they were both offered lucrative deals from Premier clubs (albeit ones fighting relegation and who, it transpired, came down.) The club persuaded them to hang in saying that if we didn't go up they could easily leave with the club's blessing, which they agreed to do. By the play-off final it was clear the only deal for Premier football and monies was for us to win.

When we didn't Basso's reaction can only be described as heartbreaking by those who witnessed it. It precipitated his issues the following season.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...