3-5-2- Strengths, Weaknesses- Need for Plan B or at least Plan A+?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I feel that this system is good but has downsides too- like all systems!

In Holden we trust, recruitment has been on point so far, he's managed to clear out a bit more in the way of surplus players at this stage than I thought a couple of months ago and Holden and coaching staff seem quite good. Think we have quite a good squad with a good range tbh.

Strengths:

1. We have more presence in the centre now, by which I mean numbers and potential/ability to control.
2. A consistent shape will help to form partnerships, continuity. Weimann-Wells-assist-goal x 2 at Middlesbrough is one I have wondered about for a while and especially since.
3. The back 3 could enable in some phases a man to man vs an opposition front 3. Again good though can depend on the makeup of that front 3 of course- but the extra bodies centrally can make us more compact out of possession.

Weaknesses:

1. Keep coming back to them but Brentford- certainly of last season and if they keep the rest now they got major money for Watkins- full back and wide forward combine and suddenly wingback is 2 vs 1! Brentford play quite a specific way though, perhaps they are not the majority. Leeds could've done similar last year when they had sufficent CM available to play a 4-3-3 or even with Hernandez and his ability to tuck in when it comes to a 4-2-3-1. They could be specific cases though.
2. Even more basic iterations though could bypass, or isolate wing backs thereby creating issues for us.

If Moore comes out in some phases to help Hunt or Sessegnon this will help- he has played RB before and Paterson drifts out from centralish to help DaSilva- again he has played left before...

Someone like Palmer drifting out vs a Brentford or a Leeds, this would unbalance us in other areas.

How can we focus on getting at the opposition in a 3-5-2 while safeguarding? That is the challenge- especially vs the better sides.

Say in one game, we go:             

              Bentley

      Moore Kalas Mawson

Hunt Morrell Williams Walsh DaSilva

       Weimann Wells

Clearly Nagy first reserve, maybe even one of the 3- Massengo also a good option to have with a lot of room to grow. Sessegnon vs Hunt for RWB, Paterson could for some games slot into the '3'- may even want to field a lone striker for the odd game with Paterson behind the appropriate striker though I think this will be very rare. 3-4-2-1 with Paterson wide left is also another option to consider for some- but the base is somewhat established. Diedhiou too of course to consider.

Weimann can pull wider to help Hunt in his 2 v 1 but who helps DaSilva- Wells?

If one of those 3 CMs pulls out to the left, we are suddenly a little exposed in the centre- quick switch of play and we have an issue!

If they don't then DaSilva is bypassed, perhaps by a quick wide left winger/left forward in a 4-3-3 when he combines with the attacking full back- one or the other overlapping.

If it's Wells and Diedhiou, Diedhiou helping out the wingback isn't so likely and Wells too- chances are one of these will be isolated up front as we look to plug gaps somewhere on the pitch.

Even if the wing backs are not bypassed, the switch in momentum can lead to them and the whole defensive line being forced back- forced back and again we have a problem, though if we draw on pressure then a quick break is possible.

If Baker is one of the 3 CBs, I have less faith in our chances of advancing the play- those 3 are surely as a trio best suited to the higher lines after all.

Alternative one that combines a reasonable amount of attack and defence- as well as more than one position switch in-game possible could be:

              Bentley

Moore Kalas Mawson

Hunt Williams Walsh DaSilva

  Weimann           Paterson

          Martin/Wells

The usual caveats with reserves, first reserves, rotation options etc.

As we know, Martin can hold up the ball, can lay it off- bring runners into it. Leading the press is not his thing though, apparently. Weimann OTOH... 

To be clear they are not wingers- wingers in a 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 aren't really apt, more like wide forwards or similar. In SOME phases Paterson can pull wider a bit and help out DaSilva out of possession- and perhaps in it. In others he can drop in between Williams and Walsh- mix of possession and numerical safety, in some phases Weimann can join Martin or Wells up front as a 2, with maybe Paterson as the '1' in a loose 3-4-1-2, and in others Weimann and Paterson can both pull wider to help out wingbacks in a loose 3-4-2-1 but not too deep as to have the entire side pushed 10 yards back and right on the back foot.

Sheffield United are of course a great example of 3-5-2 but their CBs are genuinely overlapping- can we say the same about our back 3? Maybe in Moore's case there is room but the rest...? Mawson is clearly a great ballplaying CB and will likely be able to carry it as well, but overlapping in a back 3?

I'm cautiously optimistic about our squad and setup- and more so than LJ's erratic selections and tactics that we often saw last season but I wonder how long it might take to get sussed- or at least for us to have to bring some variety to the base- which is Bentley, Back 3 and Wingbacks. Think varieties e.g. 2 or 3 CM, 2 strikers, or 3 ie 1 striker and 2 wide forwards and various selections in these positions based on form, fitness etc- the advantage of having depth.

[Davefevs]

I think it’s as simple as “with ball and without ball shapes” being drilled to deal with whatever system we are up against.  If players are intelligent enough, we will cope.

Holden talked on Monday about the 352 and how he can flex the way they play, without having to worry about changing away from 352.  He also mentioned how opposition teams have changed to adapt to City rather than other way around.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I remain to be convinced that it'd force Brentford e.g. onto the back foot. Why we can't switch to 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 hybrid as and when I don't know- they are quite similar in some ways.

Was a good graphic you posted vs Derby I think it was in another thread, but I worry about us having to drop back and cede the initiative in these scenarios. Brentford are a side provided they lose nobody else I think could cause the 3-5-2 big tactical issues.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes but as an opposition coach, I'd definitely be targeting a) The wingbacks terms of quick overload, bypassing that kind of thing and b) If someone like Baker, but especially for differing reasons Rowe and Vyner part of the back 3 the weakest part of the chain. Be it natural fit to a high line, unnatural first or even 2nd position or relative experience respectively.

Or failing that, to let one of those 3 have the ball- knowing they won't pose a significant threat- perhaps less so in Rowe's case given he has played midfield, LB and covering for DaSilva LWB- but less so than Mawson, Moore- or even at times- Kalas. Vyner could develop into it but perhaps not yet.

[Maltshoveller]

When you hear top coaches talking about 352 they all say the same thing

Its great when you have the ball

but

Hard to get the defence tight

[Sturny]

I dont see why we can't play Nahki as a lone striker and provide him with as many creative players and chances as we can. 

[Davefevs]

20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I remain to be convinced that it'd force Brentford e.g. onto the back foot. Why we can't switch to 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 hybrid as and when I don't know- they are quite similar in some ways.

I don’t think you need to worry about the formation itself, it’s about covering the threats when the opposition have the ball, and each team will attack differently.  I’m sure there were plenty of times v Exeter when if you laid magnetic blobs on the pitch it resembled anything but a 352.  Look at the first goal...before Moore got the ball...look where Dasilva was.  We are gonna be more fluid under Holden, we’ve seen that in 6 games already.  We morph in and out of 352 naturally.

Was a good graphic you posted vs Derby I think it was in another thread, but I worry about us having to drop back and cede the initiative in these scenarios. Brentford are a side provided they lose nobody else I think could cause the 3-5-2 big tactical issues.

That was just an example situation.  We bossed the first half, forcing Derby into changing to match us up second half.  At 2-0 up we happily kept it solid.  Took a wonder strike from Marriott to give them hope.

Brentford are a good side, they’ll cause any system a problem...ultimately they have good technical players playing a set system.  I’d rather we kept doing what we have been drilled to do, and see where that creates a problem.  Results versus Brentford won’t define our season (well maybe game 46 might!!)

It'll be interesting to see how it goes but as an opposition coach, I'd definitely be targeting a) The wingbacks as the opposition in terms of quick overload and b) If someone like Baker, but especially for differing reasons Rowe and Vyner part of the back 3 the weakest part of the chain. Be it natural fit to a high line, unnatural first or even 2nd position or relative experience respectively.

So would I, but if you overload in certain areas you leave yourselves exposed to transition in others.  It’s okay saying we will expose them with quick overloads against our WBs, but how to they plan and execute it?  

Or failing that, to let one of those 3 have the ball- knowing they won't pose a significant threat- perhaps less so in Rowe's case given he has played midfield, LB and covering for DaSilva LWB- but less so than Mawson, Moore- or even at times- Kalas. Vyner could develop into it but perhaps not yet.

I think it’s just worth watching a few games against different teams and seeing how we cope.
 

 

[steviestevieneville]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I found the Dasilva positioning interesting before  the first goal but just dismissed it as he’d just laid the ball off. After watching it again though , he goes into midfield to switch the ball but stays in there as the move builds 

[spudski]

The way DH has been speaking, he doesn't want to play one way.

He's mentioned the Boro game a couple of times in the way we scored and played in that game...all different and adaptation during the game.

Depending on the weaknesses and strengths of the opposition, we imo, will play a 352 loosely. As in we may play through teams using that formation...or we may play a longer more direct game using that formation. It will be flexible.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

 

Agree in part. I think formations are increasingly important but not the be all and end all. Is one reason why I think eg Palmer in CM offers less structure than say Paterson.

Course the bigger reason maybe the fact they're different types of players!

Derby away. One of our best performances yet one of the themes underlying that by which I mean the early season was a distinct lack of dominance and control. That's been a concern of mine for a while. 

Course injuries did us no favours and DaSilva LWB and non injured Nagy and soon after Kalas and Afobe may have seen us change the equation significantly.

Agree on Brentford, I'm just making this thread to explore strengths, weaknesses- how we might preempt opposition counter tactics etc. 

Depends on the opposition and personnel within of course. Think and I know they're my prime example Brentford players and shape would be setup pretty well to maximise opportunity and minimise risk. That said games that tough technically and tactically will not be that common IMO!

Against a more typical side, every chance they might easily unbalance themselves trying to do it to us.

Yeah. Will reserve judgement for now a bit. I'm actually cautiously optimistic overall!

[Mr Popodopolous]

54 minutes ago, spudski said:

The way DH has been speaking, he doesn't want to play one way.

He's mentioned the Boro game a couple of times in the way we scored and played in that game...all different and adaptation during the game.

Depending on the weaknesses and strengths of the opposition, we imo, will play a 352 loosely. As in we may play through teams using that formation...or we may play a longer more direct game using that formation. It will be flexible.

Agree. It's a good base, a good platform. 

A more direct version might see Weimann instructed to press pairing Martin who would be a focal point eg. Or Weimann wide right, Paterson or Brunt wide left and Martin up top.

Could such a setup even bring O'Dowda back into the equation for some games. Worth noting he played wide right in a 4-3-3 in both games for Ireland week just gone. 

[AshtonRobin21]

Really good post from the OP. @Mr Popodopolous

The system is one we are familiar with from the League/JPT winning campaign. I remember how fluid our link up play was when using this formation. Players in pockets, neat touches, quick pressing, it served us really well before going stale. 

One notable change (especially during this transfer window) is that we don't look like we like are setting up to be a 'nice' team anymore. Something we have been missing in recent years has been some aggression and bite. The new crop of signings look like we are really going to get at team's in order to get the ball back, whilst those signings also possess a good skillset when in possession. 

I think Holden's 3-5-2 will look much different to Cotts. I think our current squad has more flexibility. We can adapt to different in-game scenarios and have a multitude of options in regards to personnel. The midfield alone can be altered in many different ways to either control or chase a game. Again something we lacked under Johnson was game management. We looked to set up to match the opposition instead of implementing our own style of play. 

If you were to break down the midfield partnerships in terms of style/scenario it could look like any of the following:

High energy press: Weimann-Williams-Pato

Possession: Morrell-Nagy-Walsh

Protect a lead: Williams+Brunt (2 DMs) - Morrell 

Chase the game: Palmer-Nagy-Walsh

This isn't including the likes of Massengo, who can fit into a variation of these styles/scenarios. 

The individuals in midfield available to us offer much more flexibility and ability to change shape during matches or during periods of fixture congestion. 

In regards to defence, I feel we still lack some pace at the back. I sense a player sell is coming (one of Fam, Nic, Nagy, O'Dowda may be most likely) to allow us to get one more centre back in. We have fantastic players available to us in those CB roles, however, they are similar in style. Kalas and Baker are physical and are the ball winners, whereas with Moore and Mawson we have our players capable of bringing the ball out from the back. But I feel we lack pace when faced with counter attacks. Vyner could be an option, but I can't see him being a regular this season. 

Thereare alot of good strikers in the league who are small and quick. How do we face up to the likes of Connor Chaplin, Troy Parrott, Karlan Grant etc who will look to run in behind a defence? You need a defender capable of matching these type of opposition strikers. 

In regards to up top, I think we are set and have a good variation. Martin is the physical presence, a very good signing for us, we have lacked this type of striker in recent years. Fam we know is good for 10+ goals a season. Wells will be the regular starter, who will be seen as the most likely source of goals. Weimann offers energy and can chip in with goals, good for 8+ a season. And Semenyo looks to have improved his movement and willingness to get on the ball, dropped deep against Exeter to start moves before moving into the box. 

Wing backs are going to have to be lively. I think Dasilva and Sessegnon are the most likely starters. Lots of energy and pace, will look to get forward when the opportunity is there.

I think we will see Rowe leave for regular football and Brunt be the flexible option at LWB or O'Dowda as backup if he can improve his defensive work. I think on the right hand side the competition will be good for Hunt. We will see a player in Sessegnon, who has similar characteristics to Hunt, push him for consistency. Pereira was a different type of player to Hunt and they were rotated too much for my liking last season.

I don't think we are done in the transfer window yet. My gut is telling me that departures are inevitable, the squad is bloated and we can't offer regular game time to every player. 

I would expect the following:

- Nagy to move abroad

- Fam to leave (if the contract isn't signed soon we won't risk him leaving for free)

Nic to be sold (he would have to move position to play)

- Bakinson (loan, promising pre-season may get him a loan move to the likes of Wycombe/Rotherham to get champ experience)

- Rowe (Move for regular football)

 

Incomings:

Additional striker (not necessarily a like for like replacement for Fam, someone suited to a high pressing system)

A mobile CB (Offers us flexibility in defense against quick opposition). 

 

The thing I have been most pleased with in the transfer window is that Holden seems to have signed players that are specifically suited to the new system. Whereas previously we have signed good players and tried to make them fit into positions that aren't necessarily their strongest. 

I think it's worth stating that I have been impressed in recent weeks with Holden's approach. He seems to know how he wants to set up, the players he wants, and there is a real feel good factor coming back to the club. 

 

 

[Bob Thompson]

Seems we may have lost some pace. Don’t know if the midfield can get sufficient goals and protect wing backs in defence, even with back 3 moving across.

[LondonBristolian]

As others have said, it is not just about shape but, even so, a 3-5-2 can be a springboard for other shapes 

Moore stepping forward and Paterson stepping forward creates a 4-4-2 Diamond

A forward dropping back a bit from there creates a 4-1-2-1-2

We can be 5-3-2 when under the cosh or peel a forward and midfielder - say Pato and Weimann wide to protect the wing backs and we are 5 - 4 - 1

We will be loosely 3 - 5 - 2 but I expect a range of offensive and defensive shapes within that depending on what is happening.

[LondonBristolian]

48 minutes ago, Bob Thompson said:

Seems we may have lost some pace. Don’t know if the midfield can get sufficient goals and protect wing backs in defence, even with back 3 moving across.

 Not sure we had a lot of pace to start. That was already arguably the single biggest flaw of our team last season..

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree in part. I think formations are increasingly important but not the be all and end all. Is one reason why I think eg Palmer in CM offers less structure than say Paterson.

Course the bigger reason maybe the fact they're different types of players!

Derby away. One of our best performances yet one of the themes underlying that by which I mean the early season was a distinct lack of dominance and control. That's been a concern of mine for a while. 

Course injuries did us no favours and DaSilva LWB and non injured Nagy and soon after Kalas and Afobe may have seen us change the equation significantly.

Agree on Brentford, I'm just making this thread to explore strengths, weaknesses- how we might preempt opposition counter tactics etc. 

Depends on the opposition and personnel within of course. Think and I know they're my prime example Brentford players and shape would be setup pretty well to maximise opportunity and minimise risk. That said games that tough technically and tactically will not be that common IMO!

Against a more typical side, every chance they might easily unbalance themselves trying to do it to us.

Yeah. Will reserve judgement for now a bit. I'm actually cautiously optimistic overall!

Yes, I wasn’t trying to pooh-pooh, just that I don’t it’s Brentford’s formation that derives the result, of else we’d all play the same....but it’s the quality of players in the main.  Every system has its strengths and weaknesses, and those change based on the other system being opposed, e.g. a 352 will have different pros and cons against a 433 than it will against a 442.

But the beauty of football is we can beat Sheffield Utd twice, yet finish several places beneath.

The great thing about Monday’s SOTC interview (which @spudskialso picked up on) is that the formation will be pretty constant but the way we play will be flexible.  It’s exactly this that I was crying out for under LJ.

Of course, still gotta execute the plan...so it’s over to Dean / Deano!

3 hours ago, AshtonRobin21 said:

Really good post from the OP. @Mr Popodopolous

The system is one we are familiar with from the League/JPT winning campaign. I remember how fluid our link up play was when using this formation. Players in pockets, neat touches, quick pressing, it served us really well before going stale. 

One notable change (especially during this transfer window) is that we don't look like we like are setting up to be a 'nice' team anymore. Something we have been missing in recent years has been some aggression and bite.

Can’t say I know enough about Sessegnon’s bite, but I think we all know that Williams, Mawson, Martin and Brunt are all “streetwise”.  I’d say they’ve been brought in for that reason (plus they’re good players too).

The new crop of signings look like we are really going to get at team's in order to get the ball back, whilst those signings also possess a good skillset when in possession. 

I think Holden's 3-5-2 will look much different to Cotts. I think our current squad has more flexibility. We can adapt to different in-game scenarios and have a multitude of options in regards to personnel. The midfield alone can be altered in many different ways to either control or chase a game. Again something we lacked under Johnson was game management. We looked to set up to match the opposition instead of implementing our own style of play.

Holden has been very clear about that, he wants teams to worry about us.  He said he will respect the opposition, but he wants to impose his style.

If you were to break down the midfield partnerships in terms of style/scenario it could look like any of the following:

High energy press: Weimann-Williams-Pato

Possession: Morrell-Nagy-Walsh

Protect a lead: Williams+Brunt (2 DMs) - Morrell 

Chase the game: Palmer-Nagy-Walsh

This isn't including the likes of Massengo, who can fit into a variation of these styles/scenarios. 

The individuals in midfield available to us offer much more flexibility and ability to change shape during matches or during periods of fixture congestion.

exactly what I’ve been saying all pre-season.  Our midfielder are multi faceted, they can perform multiple roles..

In regards to defence, I feel we still lack some pace at the back. I sense a player sell is coming (one of Fam, Nic, Nagy, O'Dowda may be most likely) to allow us to get one more centre back in. We have fantastic players available to us in those CB roles, however, they are similar in style. Kalas and Baker are physical and are the ball winners, whereas with Moore and Mawson we have our players capable of bringing the ball out from the back. But I feel we lack pace when faced with counter attacks. Vyner could be an option, but I can't see him being a regular this season.

Kalas is quick, he’s just smooth with it.  If he’s fit, he will make a huge difference.

Thereare alot of good strikers in the league who are small and quick. How do we face up to the likes of Connor Chaplin, Troy Parrott, Karlan Grant etc who will look to run in behind a defence? You need a defender capable of matching these type of opposition strikers.

Obviously Des Walker at the back would help, but the key is putting good pressure on the passer.  If you give a half-tidy CM time on the ball, they’ll pick a runner like Chaplin (I like him).

In regards to up top, I think we are set and have a good variation. Martin is the physical presence, a very good signing for us, we have lacked this type of striker in recent years. Fam we know is good for 10+ goals a season. Wells will be the regular starter, who will be seen as the most likely source of goals. Weimann offers energy and can chip in with goals, good for 8+ a season. And Semenyo looks to have improved his movement and willingness to get on the ball, dropped deep against Exeter to start moves before moving into the box. 

Wing backs are going to have to be lively. I think Dasilva and Sessegnon are the most likely starters. Lots of energy and pace, will look to get forward when the opportunity is there.

I think we will see Rowe leave for regular football and Brunt be the flexible option at LWB or O'Dowda as backup if he can improve his defensive work. I think on the right hand side the competition will be good for Hunt. We will see a player in Sessegnon, who has similar characteristics to Hunt, push him for consistency. Pereira was a different type of player to Hunt and they were rotated too much for my liking last season.

I don't think we are done in the transfer window yet. My gut is telling me that departures are inevitable, the squad is bloated and we can't offer regular game time to every player. 

I would expect the following:

- Nagy to move abroad

- Fam to leave (if the contract isn't signed soon we won't risk him leaving for free)

Nic to be sold (he would have to move position to play)

- Bakinson (loan, promising pre-season may get him a loan move to the likes of Wycombe/Rotherham to get champ experience)

- Rowe (Move for regular football)

 

Incomings:

Additional striker (not necessarily a like for like replacement for Fam, someone suited to a high pressing system)

Bonne....or Chaplin.

A mobile CB (Offers us flexibility in defense against quick opposition).

I think we will monitor our CBs until the end of the window and see what it’s looking like.

 

The thing I have been most pleased with in the transfer window is that Holden seems to have signed players that are specifically suited to the new system. Whereas previously we have signed good players and tried to make them fit into positions that aren't necessarily their strongest. 

I think it's worth stating that I have been impressed in recent weeks with Holden's approach. He seems to know how he wants to set up, the players he wants, and there is a real feel good factor coming back to the club. 

 

 

 

36 minutes ago, Bob Thompson said:

Seems we may have lost some pace. Don’t know if the midfield can get sufficient goals and protect wing backs in defence, even with back 3 moving across.

Paterson has been scoring at a rate of 1 in 3 since returning from Derby.  That rate is better than the whole midfield for 4 seasons.  I know he won’t do that over 40+ games, but if he could get 8-10, that’s a huge bonus. Love to see him get 10-12 personally.  I think he can.

[City Ben]

Great thread, thank you to all! 

[BLRed]

Formation will work fine so long as we have the right players in the right positions and they know their roles.

it would be subject to fluid change depending on where the ball os on the pitch or what phase we are in, whether defence or attack mode.

interesting that DH made the point that if the opposition has only 1 up front, one of the cb’s can move up and create an extra midfielder as there’s no point marking one man with three. Mawson and moore will be big players for us this season in relation to this. Just depends on how good their distribution is once they have driven forward.

we certainly need more quality and to play forward at a higher tempo but if we can do that and consistently, we will not be an easy team to play against this season.

[Clutton Caveman]

13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I remain to be convinced that it'd force Brentford e.g. onto the back foot. Why we can't switch to 3-4-2-1/3-4-3 hybrid as and when I don't know- they are quite similar in some ways.

Was a good graphic you posted vs Derby I think it was in another thread, but I worry about us having to drop back and cede the initiative in these scenarios. Brentford are a side provided they lose nobody else I think could cause the 3-5-2 big tactical issues.

It'll be interesting to see how it goes but as an opposition coach, I'd definitely be targeting a) The wingbacks terms of quick overload, bypassing that kind of thing and b) If someone like Baker, but especially for differing reasons Rowe and Vyner part of the back 3 the weakest part of the chain. Be it natural fit to a high line, unnatural first or even 2nd position or relative experience respectively.

Or failing that, to let one of those 3 have the ball- knowing they won't pose a significant threat- perhaps less so in Rowe's case given he has played midfield, LB and covering for DaSilva LWB- but less so than Mawson, Moore- or even at times- Kalas. Vyner could develop into it but perhaps not yet.

I think we have to go back to the approach under Cotts, set up to be offensive and let the opposition change their shape to cope. A big part of LJ,s problem was the fixation of stopping the other team play, even teams below us. This destroyed the confidence and continuity of the team

[Davefevs]

9 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

Formation will work fine so long as we have the right players in the right positions and they know their roles.

it would be subject to fluid change depending on where the ball os on the pitch or what phase we are in, whether defence or attack mode.

interesting that DH made the point that if the opposition has only 1 up front, one of the cb’s can move up and create an extra midfielder as there’s no point marking one man with three. Mawson and moore will be big players for us this season in relation to this. Just depends on how good their distribution is once they have driven forward.

we certainly need more quality and to play forward at a higher tempo but if we can do that and consistently, we will not be an easy team to play against this season.

Which is why I think Weimann alongside Wells is a better bet (in the main) than Diedhiou and Wells.

[BLRed]

8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which is why I think Weimann alongside Wells is a better bet (in the main) than Diedhiou and Wells.

May get your wish as I think diedhiou will be off as will eliasson but that needs to happen to balance books and reduce squad numbers.

where does that put Martin though as he’s not exactly a high energy, high press forward....

[Robbored]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which is why I think Weimann alongside Wells is a better bet (in the main) than Diedhiou and Wells.

Wells is a natural goalscorer whereas Weimann is not. Sure AW has goals in him but he brings other strengths that offset his relatively poor goals per game ratio. I’m not convinced that playing as one of two strikers is his best position. I’d rather see him as an attacking midfielder.

I’d like to see Wells and Martin with Weimann behind them against Coventry and a 3-5-2 would accommodate that. 

[IAmNick]

23 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think we have to go back to the approach under Cotts, set up to be offensive and let the opposition change their shape to cope. A big part of LJ,s problem was the fixation of stopping the other team play, even teams below us. This destroyed the confidence and continuity of the team

It works well if you have the quality to impose yourself on then more than they can on you, as we did in the L1 season. As a ridiculous example you couldn't have us trying to impose ourselves on Liverpool.

There's definitely a balance though and Lee was too far one way I agree.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

May get your wish as I think diedhiou will be off as will eliasson but that needs to happen to balance books and reduce squad numbers.

where does that put Martin though as he’s not exactly a high energy, high press forward....

I’m not one to pick an eleven for the season, so Martin will get plenty of minutes.  He’s not high energy, high press, but neither is Diedhiou.  Martin suits a possession based system much better than Fam.  He will allow the midfield to get closer to the forwards, also enabling the defence to push up too.  That means pressing distances are less when we lose the ball. That’s one good thing when he’s in the team.

9 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Wells is a natural goalscorer whereas Weimann is not. Sure AW has goals in him but he brings other strengths that offset his relatively poor goals per game ratio. I’m not convinced that playing as one of two strikers is his best position. I’d rather see him as an attacking midfielder.

I’d like to see Wells and Martin with Weimann behind them against Coventry and a 3-5-2 would accommodate that. 

The problem with Weimann is that he’s rarely played as a striker in a 2 for us.

Initially he was the main striker (with Taylor or Paterson as the secondary striker) scoring 6 in 6, until Fam returned, when he initially played as a partner, but over time he became more secondary, then being moved right wing.

Similar happened last season too.  A proper partnership with Afobe, then second fiddle to Diedhiou or wide right.

I do believe he can play as a proper striker in a 2....just when Fam played (under LJ) Fam was told to occupy the CBs and everyone else had to work around that.

Under DH, I saw more promising signs from Fam.

But I do see why you say what you’re saying.

[Robbored]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not one to pick an eleven for the season, so Martin will get plenty of minutes.  He’s not high energy, high press, but neither is Diedhiou.  Martin suits a possession based system much better than Fam.  He will allow the midfield to get closer to the forwards, also enabling the defence to push up too.  That means pressing distances are less when we lose the ball. That’s one good thing when he’s in the team.

The problem with Weimann is that he’s rarely played as a striker in a 2 for us.

Initially he was the main striker (with Taylor or Paterson as the secondary striker) scoring 6 in 6, until Fam returned, when he initially played as a partner, but over time he became more secondary, then being moved right wing.

Similar happened last season too.  A proper partnership with Afobe, then second fiddle to Diedhiou or wide right.

I do believe he can play as a proper striker in a 2....just when Fam played (under LJ) Fam was told to occupy the CBs and everyone else had to work around that.

Under DH, I saw more promising signs from Fam.

But I do see why you say what you’re saying.

Assuming Fam moves on it’ll be Martin whose job it is to occupy the CBs and Flint reckoned that CM was his toughest opponent and if Flint thought that then so will other CBs. I can hardly wait to see what he brings to AG and with Wells and Weimann around him we could be in for an exciting season.

Heres hoping...........

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I think we have to go back to the approach under Cotts, set up to be offensive and let the opposition change their shape to cope. A big part of LJ,s problem was the fixation of stopping the other team play, even teams below us. This destroyed the confidence and continuity of the team

Was at a markedly lower level though, but see what you're getting at.

My idea is less changing formation to suit the opposition, more tweaking within a framework. Again certain teams could neutralise our 3-5-2, especially if we don't start Paterson or Weimann- could overwhelm or negate us in key areas tactically quite well.

The framework should always though be:

GK- Well Bentley basically.

Back 3

Wingbacks.

After that? Up for grabs a bit IMO.

Talking of Cotts, when we did reach this level we played the same way week in week out- with mixed results and performance level early on but it got progressively worse over time!

LJ's constant switching and sometimes between back 3 and back 4 and other types isn't what I'm advocating though- more like tweaks within a framework.

[winsaw]

I think 352 will work fine when at home, it will give us the ability to take the game to the other side and hopefully fix the lack of attacking threat we had for to much of last season,

But when away would prefer to be 433 as I think you need that extra defence that brings you, 

Still how ever we play I am happy to see DH is looking to fix some of the issues he saw last season,

[Mr Popodopolous]

4-3-3 I really think could suit us but 3-5-2 or a Bentley, back 3 and wingbacks seems good enough- Plan A and B away from home provided they don't diverge too much could be useful to look at.

3-5-2 I've always thought of as a bit of a counterattacking- or in a modern version a bit of a counterpressing setup- but clearly things have evolved.