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Bat Fastard
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Just now, Wiltshire robin said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s been fine this whole time , there was a video back when it was the first training session of pre season and he looked like he was being sentenced in court 

“I sentence you to 12 months of Holden’s anti football!”

”Noooo! I’ll take the lethal injection!”

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1 minute ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s been fine this whole time , there was a video back when it was the first training session of pre season and he looked like he was being sentenced in court 

No, he pulled his quad in July.

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1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

Dean is hardly in a position to have many team choices. He is bereft of left sided players and teams have obviously targeted that weakness.  So many of our players are very young and inexperienced and will always struggle against teams like Brentford and Watford, who are able to field close to their strongest sides.  Ifeel it is incredibly unfair to judge Dean in the current circumstances,  I hope the injury crisis does not get worse because I could not imagine any manager achieving much in current circumstances.

I supported Lee and was sad to see him go because I thought he had more to achieve here,  Every time we change managers, it causes disruption and expense and we cannot afford either of these luxuries at present.

I tell you what my friend keeping Dean Holden and his management team will cause even more disruption and expense as the only place we are heading is league one with the current set up - if not this season but next. The players aren’t fighting for him and to be honest i think they have lost faith in the coaching staff , that was evident yesterday..  

We need a change and we need it now. Nobody wants to see us constantly chopping and changing managers but the football is absolutely atrocious and has been for months. Forget the injuries that is a cop out, Holden and his staff had more than enough experience and quality available yesterday and in the months gone by to produce better performances than they have. It’s simply not been good enough..

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3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I think we would be a great gig for many able managers - but we have Dean and he is facing incredible challenges at the present time.  We have not seen the best of him or his team because we have not seen half his team for months. We are clearly constrained by finances but the so are around half of the teams in our league.  We do seem to get an awful lot of severe hamstring problems and that might warrant further investigation.

No really can’t agree with you that we’d be a draw for decent managers.  

It’s been dicussed to death on here and I’d completely agree with those who say that any manager who values their reputation and wants to do the job they’re paid to do, while trying to recruit the players they want, rather than given, are going to steer well clear of us.

We’ve created this management structure and are now reaping the very dubious ‘benefits’ of that I’m afraid.  We’ve probably reduced our potential pool of managers to ones from a lower league who fancy a shot at the Championship and the associated salary, rather than anyone with a genuine record of success at our level.

Miracles may happen and Dean comes good and I really hope he does, but we also heard all that about LJ and it just didn’t happen.  Dean certainly isn’t giving any clues that he’s got it in him.

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1 minute ago, bris red said:

I tell you what my friend keeping Dean Holden and his management team will cause even more disruption and expense as the only place we are heading is league one with the current set up - if not this season but next. The players aren’t fighting for him and to be honest i think they have lost faith in the coaching staff , that was evident yesterday..  

We need a change and we need it now. Nobody wants to see us constantly chopping and changing managers but the football is absolutely atrocious and has been for months. Forget the injuries that is a cop out, Holden and his staff had more than enough experience and quality available yesterday and in the months gone by to produce better performances than they have. It’s simply not been good enough..

We are all disappointed with the current situation but with the players available we will struggle until we can get some back from injury. Sadly it will the take time to get them up to speed and with so many games back to back, there is always the risk if further injuries if brought on too quickly. I fear that we will have to grit our teeth and go through a few more weeks of sub-standard performances.

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1 minute ago, BrizzleRed said:

No really can’t agree with you that we’d be a draw for decent managers.  

It’s been dicussed to death on here and I’d completely agree with those who say that any manager who values their reputation and wants to do the job they’re paid to do, while trying to recruit the players they want, rather than given, are going to steer well clear of us.

We’ve created this management structure and are now reaping the very dubious ‘benefits’ of that I’m afraid.  We’ve probably reduced our potential pool of managers to ones from a lower league who fancy a shot at the Championship and the associated salary, rather than anyone with a genuine record of success at our level.

Miracles may happen and Dean comes good and I really hope he does, but we also heard all that about LJ and it just didn’t happen.  Dean certainly isn’t giving any clues that he’s got it in him.

We are trying to build our own players via the academy and either sell them or embed them into the team. It is not a short term approach and some managers may not wish to operate such a system.  When up against clubs with parachute payments, either SL digs even deeper into his pockets or tries to implement the current strategy.  We have not done too badly when you consider the quality of some of the relegated teams,

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7 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Just googled and a pulled quad takes 2 months at the most  to full recovery 

Ironically you’ve probably just stumbled upon our coaching team’s methodology of treating injuries... “just Google it mate!”  

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9 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Just googled and a pulled quad takes 2 months at the most  to full recovery 

Absolutely right.

But he had setbacks.  We don’t know what type of setback, e.g. did he completely pull it again?

When I did my ACL, 3-4 months in, I was weeks ahead of schedule.  I started thinking I might be back in 7-8 months.  Started getting fluid, cost me a year....was best part of 2 years before I played again.

Not sure where his fitness is at this point.  Can’t remember other than he’s nearing the end of his rehab.

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Lampard had a season of no transfers and brought Chelsea a champions league date. Deano has some injuries and is: playing shite football, has us "a promotion waiting club" skulking with Luton and ******* Barnsley, he said he wouldn't make excuses, so we shouldn't either. OUT. 

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3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolutely right.

But he had setbacks.  We don’t know what type of setback, e.g. did he completely pull it again?

When I did my ACL, 3-4 months in, I was weeks ahead of schedule.  I started thinking I might be back in 7-8 months.  Started getting fluid, cost me a year....was best part of 2 years before I played again.

Not sure where his fitness is at this point.  Can’t remember other than he’s nearing the end of his rehab.

Jesus sounds painful 

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20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

We are trying to build our own players via the academy and either sell them or embed them into the team. It is not a short term approach and some managers may not wish to operate such a system.  When up against clubs with parachute payments, either SL digs even deeper into his pockets or tries to implement the current strategy.  We have not done too badly when you consider the quality of some of the relegated teams,

I completely get what the plan to develop young players, but as usual, we just dabble rather than really go for it.  If we really want to go that route, why don’t we employ a manager or head coach with a proven record of doing that and where has Dean shown he has what it takes?

Problem is, it’s looking increasingly like this club doesn’t have a clue or real plan of where its going, so just resort to bullshitting the fans, saying yet again that we’re going to push for the top six each season, but never backing it up with any real intention. 

I’m becoming increasingly convinced that they truly don’t believe what they’re actually saying and I neither can I see how our dour brand of football is going to develop any young player in a positive way. Look at Towler for instance, we’ve probably done him massive damage on Saturday and knocked his development back many months.

Our seasons are starting to look like Groundhog Day, with the same scenario playing our year after year and the only consistency we’ve seen during that period is in drabness, lack of excitement and mediocrity    

 

 

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The truth of the matter is that for all of our intuitions and judgement none of us, even @Bat Fastard and @Kid in the Riot can say for sure what would have come to pass had Holden not had the injury crisis to contend with. We do not have access to the parallel universe in which that occurs. Factimondo.

My feeling is this: if City are to finish in the lower reaches of the league this season, irrespective of the plague of knackered quads, hamstrings and ankles, I would see it as too risky to allow Holden another season (“Yeah, give me a second season, you shit!”)
 

We can coulda, woulda, shoulda All we like, but how much of a leap of faith are we willing to take. Personally, I’ve never been fond of leaps of faith...

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4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Ok, how do you know then?  Have you got any inside contacts?

He may be having a tough time at the moment, but if he left tomorrow he wouldn’t be our worst manager, not by a long shot.

But then again people were very critical of Joe Jordan during his first full season in charge.  His second season was ok...

Jordan took us to the League Cup Semi-final in his first full season in charge, and had won his first six games to get us in the play-offs before taking us to the final at the end of the previous season. Hardly a realistic comparison.

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8 hours ago, RedNachos said:

Lampard had a season of no transfers and brought Chelsea a champions league date. Deano has some injuries and is: playing shite football, has us "a promotion waiting club" skulking with Luton and ******* Barnsley, he said he wouldn't make excuses, so we shouldn't either. OUT. 

In what way are comparable to Lampard and Chelsea?

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9 hours ago, Redtucks said:

I remember a lot of criticism of Alan Dicks in the early days of his first managerial appointment.

He didn't do too bad eventually though!

 

That old chestnut. 

Different times,  Dicks had a group of players who had been together since their youth days and progressed as a TEAM . 
They knew each other and each other’s game perfectly.

These days a club sign a club player on a three year contract and sell after two to protect the club’s assets. There’s no chance to develop a TEAM.

A manager today needs to produce results and quickly whilst he is in credit with everyone. If he doesn’t then his agent needs to start looking for the next gig. 

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10 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

We are told that we plan two or three transfer windows in advance, so I hope there is a master plan.  We seem to lack pace and penertation and I would like to see these qualities brought into the team. The returns of Sasilva, O'Dowda and Weimann would help.  Hunt looks to struggle if he plays consecutive games - but his is a difficult position at his age.  I would expect to see a rebuilding in the summer, subject to financial constraints.  MA will have plans afoot and is probably lining up the players right now. Time to have faith!

This is where it seems like you're just trying to put some positive spin on things, and hoping for the best.

We are told we plan 2 or 3 windows ahead, so can you explain the two windows that Holden has had?

Williams, yes, I can believe that we intended on getting him in, and were just unfortunate with his injury. Who else have we bought into the club in the same timescale?

Martin - useful when not being flogged to death, which has probably not helped his injury problems.

Brunt - signed to be a voice in the dressing room and on the pitch. Signed mainly because of the link with Simpson (or Downing can't remember which). Injured. Contract cancelled.

Lansbury - seems like a punt in the hope that he regains some form from previous seasons. Won't do that whilst playing out of position, and has already disappeared from the squad.

Mawson - injured. Again. Early promise, but the last few games he played he looked a shambles. Mind you everyone around him haven't looked much better. Only signed because of his injury record and the fact that Fulham won't risk him in their team.

Sessegnon - not wanted by Fulham in their squad. Haven't seen enough of him because, shock horror, he's been injured.

Mariappa - signed as emergency cover at CB and then played out of position seemingly everywhere bar CB! People then wonder why he looks so bad.

If we've planned to sign these players, bearing in mind 2 are on loan from Fulham so wouldn't have been on the radar as likely signings so to speak, then there's something wrong with our transfer planning.

3 of those 7 players are over 30 and will have little to no resell value (Ignoring the fact that Brunt is no longer here. We signed him though). Another 2 aren't even our players, so that leaves Williams and Lansbury. Is the hope that Lansbury finds some form from yesteryear and we can flip him for a few million?  Again, Williams is one to watch once he's not injured. That could be a great signing. Otherwise that, I'm extremely sorry to say, is absolutely terrible transfer planning.

You can argue that "Dean" is playing people out of position because of injuries and he has little choice other than playing youngsters until you're blue in the face, however what you can't defend is his lack of a backup plan when things are going wrong. The fact that he has no preferred formation, and this fast flowing attacking football we were promised is actually just waffle learned from his previous teacher!! As for the transfers......

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

That old chestnut. 

Different times,  Dicks had a group of players who had been together since their youth days and progressed as a TEAM . 
They knew each other and each other’s game perfectly.

These days a club sign a club player on a three year contract and sell after two to protect the club’s assets. There’s no chance to develop a TEAM.

A manager today needs to produce results and quickly whilst he is in credit with everyone. If he doesn’t then his agent needs to start looking for the next gig. 

I don't disagree with what you say.

It was still true though.

 

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37 minutes ago, Taz said:

This is where it seems like you're just trying to put some positive spin on things, and hoping for the best.

We are told we plan 2 or 3 windows ahead, so can you explain the two windows that Holden has had?

Williams, yes, I can believe that we intended on getting him in, and were just unfortunate with his injury. Who else have we bought into the club in the same timescale?

Martin - useful when not being flogged to death, which has probably not helped his injury problems.

Brunt - signed to be a voice in the dressing room and on the pitch. Signed mainly because of the link with Simpson (or Downing can't remember which). Injured. Contract cancelled.

Lansbury - seems like a punt in the hope that he regains some form from previous seasons. Won't do that whilst playing out of position, and has already disappeared from the squad.

Mawson - injured. Again. Early promise, but the last few games he played he looked a shambles. Mind you everyone around him haven't looked much better. Only signed because of his injury record and the fact that Fulham won't risk him in their team.

Sessegnon - not wanted by Fulham in their squad. Haven't seen enough of him because, shock horror, he's been injured.

Mariappa - signed as emergency cover at CB and then played out of position seemingly everywhere bar CB! People then wonder why he looks so bad.

If we've planned to sign these players, bearing in mind 2 are on loan from Fulham so wouldn't have been on the radar as likely signings so to speak, then there's something wrong with our transfer planning.

3 of those 7 players are over 30 and will have little to no resell value (Ignoring the fact that Brunt is no longer here. We signed him though). Another 2 aren't even our players, so that leaves Williams and Lansbury. Is the hope that Lansbury finds some form from yesteryear and we can flip him for a few million?  Again, Williams is one to watch once he's not injured. That could be a great signing. Otherwise that, I'm extremely sorry to say, is absolutely terrible transfer planning.

You can argue that "Dean" is playing people out of position because of injuries and he has little choice other than playing youngsters until you're blue in the face, however what you can't defend is his lack of a backup plan when things are going wrong. The fact that he has no preferred formation, and this fast flowing attacking football we were promised is actually just waffle learned from his previous teacher!! As for the transfers......

Dean has been very unfortunate with injuries.  Mawson, Baker, Brunt, O'Dowda, Dasilva, Rowe, Pring and currently Nurse.   Apart from O'Dowda we did not have a left footed midfield player and maybe Dean thought we needed some experience in the squad to help the youngsters progress.  Mariappa was always too short to be a real stopper at centre half and too slow to be a marauding wing back. Obviously not long term - as with Brunt - but plenty of experience.  The fact that players are played out of position is clearly due to the fact that he has no left footed players apart from Towler currently available.  We don't know how many players are playing with minor injuries and they are really under pressure.  Yes I hope for the best but also see that it is hard to add to the squad right now - only out of contracts would help, and we may well be up against the financial restrictions that penalise clubs like ours in the current circumstances of covid and no income from crowds.

Plans for future transfer windows must take account of players coming through that the coaches think will succeed.  Dean has been fire fighting since he came into the job and has hardly had a good run. The best indication of what he could do, was at the start of the season when he had more senior players available. 

Maybe a little prayer is not such a bad idea right now. 

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10 hours ago, BrizzleRed said:

I completely get what the plan to develop young players, but as usual, we just dabble rather than really go for it.  If we really want to go that route, why don’t we employ a manager or head coach with a proven record of doing that and where has Dean shown he has what it takes?

Problem is, it’s looking increasingly like this club doesn’t have a clue or real plan of where its going, so just resort to bullshitting the fans, saying yet again that we’re going to push for the top six each season, but never backing it up with any real intention. 

I’m becoming increasingly convinced that they truly don’t believe what they’re actually saying and I neither can I see how our dour brand of football is going to develop any young player in a positive way. Look at Towler for instance, we’ve probably done him massive damage on Saturday and knocked his development back many months.

Our seasons are starting to look like Groundhog Day, with the same scenario playing our year after year and the only consistency we’ve seen during that period is in drabness, lack of excitement and mediocrity    

 

 

We HAVE recruited England youth coaches. They are experienced in bringing on young players.  At the same time, amid all the injuries, covid, financial constraints and the like - they are under pressure to get results. If we played all young players in this league, we would likely be relegated.  There has to be a balance of old and young and that is all thrown out of the window if you lose all your left footers and have to play half the team out of position.  Whilst they are struggling with all these difficulties, my solution is to understand their plight and support them. Others on here seem to want to give them a good kicking when they are down.  Our higher impact players will return at some stage and after they have been nursed back to full match fitness, we may well see a different type of performance on the pitch.

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9 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Dean has been very unfortunate with injuries.  Mawson, Baker, Brunt, O'Dowda, Dasilva, Rowe, Pring and currently Nurse.   Apart from O'Dowda we did not have a left footed midfield player and maybe Dean thought we needed some experience in the squad to help the youngsters progress.  Mariappa was always too short to be a real stopper at centre half and too slow to be a marauding wing back. Obviously not long term - as with Brunt - but plenty of experience.  The fact that players are played out of position is clearly due to the fact that he has no left footed players apart from Towler currently available.  We don't know how many players are playing with minor injuries and they are really under pressure.  Yes I hope for the best but also see that it is hard to add to the squad right now - only out of contracts would help, and we may well be up against the financial restrictions that penalise clubs like ours in the current circumstances of covid and no income from crowds.

Plans for future transfer windows must take account of players coming through that the coaches think will succeed.  Dean has been fire fighting since he came into the job and has hardly had a good run. The best indication of what he could do, was at the start of the season when he had more senior players available. 

Maybe a little prayer is not such a bad idea right now. 

So whats the excuse for playing

 - Wells on the wing, where you can tell he is not happy and useless

- Lansbury as defensive midfield, where he has previous told other managers that is not his position he is an attacking midfielder and he has been a liability there?

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1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So whats the excuse for playing

 - Wells on the wing, where you can tell he is not happy and useless

- Lansbury as defensive midfield, where he has previous told other managers that is not his position he is an attacking midfielder and he has been a liability there?

I cannot know what Dean is thinking and do not know about the problems he faces with trying to get new and fringe players up to speed and trying to produce performances.  We have no width apart from through Hunt - and he seems to be knackered all the time.  Just because we are frustrated it does not mean the Dean is not also frustrated.

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1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

I cannot know what Dean is thinking and do not know about the problems he faces with trying to get new and fringe players up to speed and trying to produce performances.  We have no width apart from through Hunt - and he seems to be knackered all the time.  Just because we are frustrated it does not mean the Dean is not also frustrated.

Sorry sometimes you just have to accept he has fncked up

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Just now, sh1t_ref_again said:

Sorry sometimes you just have to accept he has fncked up

That would be a reasonable assumption if you ignore the fact that he has lost the use of currently 11 first team players, including every left footed player in the club apart from the 18 year old Towler. We play in a league reckoned to be one of the most competitive in the World.  We are playing with huge disadvantages at the present time.

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Just now, Bat Fastard said:

That would be a reasonable assumption if you ignore the fact that he has lost the use of currently 11 first team players, including every left footed player in the club apart from the 18 year old Towler. We play in a league reckoned to be one of the most competitive in the World.  We are playing with huge disadvantages at the present time.

Yawwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

You're like a long playing record stuck in a grove

Wells and Lansbury are not left sided players, 

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12 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Dean's first season has coincided with covid and a massive injury crisis.  I am not at all surprised at his current plight but would still like to see him given longer.  I could not see a different manager achieving much more in current dire circumstances.

The point is Bat Dean shouldn't ever have had a first season. Another bewildering choice by the powers that be.

I'm sure you're a nice chap, a committed City supporter, and your heart is in the right place, but remember SL warned us not to get too attached to players.

The same should apply to managers, and in your case you seem to support them endlessly just because they are the man SL appoints, however poor they are.

That's not reason enough - SL can, and has on several occasions, made really poor choices, and when that becomes apparent again you have to put the good of the club (and sanity of the fans) above any personal liking for the individual and the wish for him to succeed, and call him out on it.

Clearly time for a change, not only of the manager, but the set up that put him in place.

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2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

SL warned us not to get too attached to players.

Whilst at the same time he gets attached to his coaching and administrative staff . 
 

The man needs to practice what he preaches. 
 

Until he changes his attitude to the running of the club we will not get to play at the highest level. It is cut throat up there with all the money sloshing around, well meaning amateurs with big hearts need not apply. 

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