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10 hours ago, steviestevieneville said:

To comment that a professional footballer isn’t interested isn’t just A lazy Comment but also , complete bollocks. If he’s not good enough or doesn’t fit the way we play then fine , but not interested! 

Palmer is a waster because he’s not interested in using his talent. He’s only interested when he wants to be. Quite frankly he’s taking the piss. When you see the effort the other players put in, he looks like a modern version of Dinning.

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33 minutes ago, Dog said:

You wouldn't have had to move the goalposts if your original post wasn't so ridiculous.

I’ll move the goalposts to probably suit all parties and have a more sensible debate. There are 34 players aged 20 or under that have been used in squads in the championship this season every match day squad is 18 players so that’s 34/432 or 8% of players. That is, assuming that they’re picked in the squad every week (So in all likelihood this percentage is smaller). So out of that 8% or 34 players, how does HNM compare? That’s the better question because you’re actually making like for like comparisons. Source: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/juengsteaelteste/wettbewerb/GB2

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Bellingham, Grealish, Brewster,James, Bird, Sibley, Knight, Bogle, Ryan Sessagnon, shackleton....

that's 10 off the top of my head feel free to spend some time educating yourself.

 

The other thing about Massengo missing here is that he's not a headline grabbing attacking player like lots of those you've mentioned. At the moment, we've mainly utilised him as a fairly defensive minded midfield player. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't grab people's attention in the same way the likes of Grealish, Bellingham, Brewster etc do.

It is possible to be noticeable as a defensive minded midfielder (ie Bakinson) but that usually comes when a player is physical and imposing. That's not Massengo's game either.

He is still very good for his age, and it's all the more impressive considering he's come here from a different country, language, style of play etc. People very eager to try and write him off.

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4 hours ago, MC RISK77 said:

You definitely didn’t like Craig woodman!!

Ha ha. Yep. I definitely didn’t like him either. Although that was a personal issue as much as a footballing one 😂

Mate - on a totally separate note (and harking back to those days), did you like Andy Murray’s latest training gear 😂😂

 

6451BD7F-A293-4C7F-B1EB-131A5219638C.jpeg

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Nagy is one among a surfeit of midfielders and we know one or two will be moved on before the end of this window.

We'll all have our own thoughts on who those players should be, but for me it's simply a case of deciding the players we should definitely NOT move on and take it from there.

For me that is Williams, Bakinson, Massengo, Walsh & Morrell.

The others - Palmer, O'Dowda, Nagy, Paterson ( Pato controversial I'm sure but aging and, over a season, has always been inconsistent) are the ones we can afford to let go if suitable offers come in.

But those 5 talented young players - who will all get better - with the occasional experienced support of the likes of Brunt, should be kept to battle it out between them for those midfield places imo., and the rest (they won't all go) are dispensable.

 

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12 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Nagy is one among a surfeit of midfielders and we know one or two will be moved on before the end of this window.

We'll all have our own thoughts on who those players should be, but for me it's simply a case of deciding the players we should definitely NOT move on and take it from there.

For me that is Williams, Bakinson, Massengo, Walsh & Morrell.

The others - Palmer, O'Dowda, Nagy, Paterson ( Pato controversial I'm sure but aging and, over a season, has always been inconsistent) are the ones we can afford to let go if suitable offers come in.

But those 5 talented young players - who will all get better - with the occasional experienced support of the likes of Brunt, should be kept to battle it out between them for those midfield places imo., and the rest (they won't all go) are dispensable.

 

I agree with the exception of Paterson. He’s a game changer (same could be said about Palmer but Pato more consistently has an effect on a game than Palmer) and I would keep. 

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1 hour ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Palmer is a waster because he’s not interested in using his talent. He’s only interested when he wants to be. Quite frankly he’s taking the piss. When you see the effort the other players put in, he looks like a modern version of Dinning.

I fully agree. There is a player in there for sure, but his work rate is pathetic. People keep making excuses for him, - its not his game etc - bollocks to that he is lazy. I dont understand why he doesnt recognise this , such a waste of his talent

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13 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I fully agree. There is a player in there for sure, but his work rate is pathetic. People keep making excuses for him, - its not his game etc - bollocks to that he is lazy. I dont understand why he doesnt recognise this , such a waste of his talent

Did you think he was 'lazy' last night? I think 'lazy' is often a lazy way of saying a player with a lot of talent had a not great game. But I didn't see someone walking about the pitch and shirking tackles. He runs a lot. 

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34 minutes ago, Dog said:

I very much doubt that Bird,Shackleton,Knight and James have been labelled as headline grabbing players. Until they performed of course, which Massengo has failed to do.

But you think Nagy has performed well enough to be called our best midfielder ?

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9 minutes ago, Dredd said:

I agree with the exception of Paterson. He’s a game changer (same could be said about Palmer but Pato more consistently has an effect on a game than Palmer) and I would keep. 

I'm confident Walsh can be that game changer if given the opportunity, and probably more consistently.

There is an imminent danger Walsh may leave if he (or his agent) see there is more opportunity to progress further at a rival Championship club without such an abundance of midfield players.

I don't want Pato to leave, but when it comes down to it I'd be more disappointed if Walsh did.

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51 minutes ago, Dog said:

I very much doubt that Bird,Shackleton,Knight and James have been labelled as headline grabbing players. Until they performed of course, which Massengo has failed to do.

I didn't list those players though, I didn't say your entire list was headline grabbing players. I mentioned the ones that are. I haven't got too much to say about those 4 you've mentioned above to be honest as I haven't seen them play very much. 

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3 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

Mark these words. 
 

There will definitely be comments on this board in a similar vein about Bakinson a year or two ago. ‘Will never be up to it.. Plymouth fans said his problem is... he’s nowhere near first team.. blah blah’. 
 

Give massengo a chance to develop in a stable team with a clear plan, give him a clear role and he’s going to be class. 
 

We have more than one example in the team this season of young players who have been written off plenty on these boards and yet are now showing they are more than good enough for this level. (Remember the level last night was prem not championship).  And yet fans still make this same mistake of writing off a kid. 
 

Yep.  I really don’t get the speed of which some posters want to proclaim a player as the next Pirlo or Downs League.  The inability to weigh up the circumstances too, e.g. last week Northampton, this week Aston Villa.  But it’s a forum so it takes all sorts.

36 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

I fully agree. There is a player in there for sure, but his work rate is pathetic. People keep making excuses for him, - its not his game etc - bollocks to that he is lazy. I dont understand why he doesnt recognise this , such a waste of his talent

He is a problem for Dean to solve.

I’m not gonna go into my thoughts on workfare, etc.

Pre-game my two big questions were:

  1. Moore and Vyner versus Keinan Davis
  2. Palmer link with Diedhiou

Re 1. I can’t remember if I made the point before the team was announced or not, but if you add Rowe in also, it was gonna be a big challenge for them, because Davis (despite his lack of goal scoring class) is exactly the type of striker to make their lives difficult.  Big and strong (but so were Vokes and Fletcher you may retort), but mobile too.  And that mobility made their evening difficult, because he could stretch them into parts of the pitch and isolate them.  However there were 5 or 6 chances for Moore (especially) to “nail” Davis.  Not rashly, but a physical, slightly cynical foul to let him know he was there, let him think twice the next time the ball came into feet, perhaps causing a bad touch.  That didn’t happen.  Aerially, you’ve got to get up early, and be physically imposing.  Moore was better second half.  Vyner still a bit timid.  These are things that the experienced and better quality Mawson does naturally.  It’s something Baker and Kalas do.  Moore and Vyner will hopefully develop this.

Re 2. This isn’t just a criticism of Diedhiou, but his inability to show for passes restricts Palmer.  We saw last week v Northampton (yes, much lower quality than last night) that Palmer likes to play into a striker’s feet and then move off the ball.  Just one player not being able to build attacks off of, severely restricts a team’s efficiency.  Palmer however needs to adapt his game (along with the coaches being aware) and find ways of being effective with different players in front of him.  If it’s Weimann and Wells, then his slide rule passes are an option.  If it’s Martin or Semenyo, then give and go’s are on.  If it’s Diedhiou, then perhaps it’s about finding a way to get the ball into Eliasson and Sessegnon in good positions to cross.  Palmer can’t expect the team to revolve around his preferred way.  But to answer my pre-game question...it failed too.  Both players will have done their chances of forcing their way into the starting eleven a bit of harm last night.  So, not excuses for Palmer, reasons instead, but he has to take responsibility.  Finally on Palmer, he generally plays left of centre for City (in a three-man midfield), yet last week v Northampton he started the second half on the right, where he linked better with Semenyo, who tended to play right of Martin.  Is that part of the problem too?  Dunno personally, just an observation.

 

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3 hours ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Palmer is a waster because he’s not interested in using his talent. He’s only interested when he wants to be. Quite frankly he’s taking the piss. When you see the effort the other players put in, he looks like a modern version of Dinning.

You need to look more at a players style. Some players are languid , doesn’t mean they’re not trying . I don’t necessarily think he should be in the side or even stay . However to say he’s not trying is rubbish. There was a good post last night about partnerships and players on the same wavelength . Palmer automatically went further up the pitch when Bakinson came on and made runs he knew tyreeq would find him with. Similar to how he used to feed Afobe . He certainly has no connection with fam , different wavelength , different levels of football intelligence .

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5 hours ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. Yep. I definitely didn’t like him either. Although that was a personal issue as much as a footballing one 😂

Mate - on a totally separate note (and harking back to those days), did you like Andy Murray’s latest training gear 😂😂

 

6451BD7F-A293-4C7F-B1EB-131A5219638C.jpeg

Haha whatever prompted him to wear that 😂😂

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4 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I'm confident Walsh can be that game changer if given the opportunity, and probably more consistently.

There is an imminent danger Walsh may leave if he (or his agent) see there is more opportunity to progress further at a rival Championship club without such an abundance of midfield players.

I don't want Pato to leave, but when it comes down to it I'd be more disappointed if Walsh did.

I really want to see Walsh and Williams box to box with Bakinson holding.

That could be a very exciting midfield.

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

I really want to see Walsh and Williams box to box with Bakinson holding.

That could be a very exciting midfield.

That would be an exciting and quality midfield.  

It's a bit of a conundrum with midfield for Dean Holden.   Bakinson has to be one of the first on the team sheet and who would have thought that until recently. Paterson and Weimann provide goals, energy and assists. They can play up front as well which is important if Fam goes and there are injuries to the main three strikers. 

Morrell should soon be available as well.   Walsh and Williams will make a strong claim for starting games.  All six can get a lot of games this season and they would be my six to retain if Walsh signs an extension. Nearly forgot Brunt as well. Not really sure why he was signed ( an expensive mentor) given the glut of midfielders we have although maybe he can cover LWB if he gets his fitness levels up.

The Club will need to listen to offers for Nagy and Palmer but at second tier level the limited finances makes it a difficult market.  My preference would also be to  (reluctantly) sell Massengo for a decent fee and try to recoup most of the circa 3m with have a big sell-on fee.  Loaning him out for a season or two is also a reasonable option.  

Diediou and Elliason don't look likely to sign and that's had a lot of coverage.   The Liam Walsh situation hasn't been covered so much and given, Dean was talking him up a couple of weeks ago, I'm disappointed he hasn't signed an extension yet with a view to grabbing his chance this season.  He was 23 this month so I think there would be a fee for him via tribunal if he chooses to run down his contract this season. 

So in summary, if the market allows, sell  Diedhiou, Elliason, Nagy, Palmer & possibly Massengo.  Unfortunately, the Club will also have to listen to offers for Walsh if he doesn't sign.  

Retain Weimann, Paterson, Bakinson, Williams, Morrell and (hopefully) Walsh.

That gives a nice balanced look to the squad with scope to add quality in one or two in other areas such as central defence and left wing back.  Given the two centre back injuries I would like to see Benkovic back on loan (at least until January) and he would contribute to the 90 goal a season tally.  

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8 minutes ago, bcfcnick said:

That would be an exciting and quality midfield.  

It's a bit of a conundrum with midfield for Dean Holden.   Bakinson has to be one of the first on the team sheet and who would have thought that until recently. Paterson and Weimann provide goals, energy and assists. They can play up front as well which is important if Fam goes and there are injuries to the main three strikers. 

Morrell should soon be available as well.   Walsh and Williams will make a strong claim for starting games.  All six can get a lot of games this season and they would be my six to retain if Walsh signs an extension. Nearly forgot Brunt as well. Not really sure why he was signed ( an expensive mentor) given the glut of midfielders we have although maybe he can cover LWB if he gets his fitness levels up.

The Club will need to listen to offers for Nagy and Palmer but at second tier level the limited finances makes it a difficult market.  My preference would also be to  (reluctantly) sell Massengo for a decent fee and try to recoup most of the circa 3m with have a big sell-on fee.  Loaning him out for a season or two is also a reasonable option.  

Diediou and Elliason don't look likely to sign and that's had a lot of coverage.   The Liam Walsh situation hasn't been covered so much and given, Dean was talking him up a couple of weeks ago, I'm disappointed he hasn't signed an extension yet with a view to grabbing his chance this season.  He was 23 this month so I think there would be a fee for him via tribunal if he chooses to run down his contract this season. 

So in summary, if the market allows, sell  Diedhiou, Elliason, Nagy, Palmer & possibly Massengo.  Unfortunately, the Club will also have to listen to offers for Walsh if he doesn't sign.  

Retain Weimann, Paterson, Bakinson, Williams, Morrell and (hopefully) Walsh.

That gives a nice balanced look to the squad with scope to add quality in one or two in other areas such as central defence and left wing back.  Given the two centre back injuries I would like to see Benkovic back on loan (at least until January) and he would contribute to the 90 goal a season tally.  

Agree on all that except Massengo bit. I'd keep him as he could become a very valuable player one day. Maybe loan him out.

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58 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Agree on all that except Massengo bit. I'd keep him as he could become a very valuable player one day. Maybe loan him out.

Yes, a loan is probably best except that he might need a couple of seasons of loaning out which is okay if a contract extension accompanies loans. If not, we would have the Liam Walsh situation.   

Nagy is unlucky really, he might shine given a few opportunities with Bakinson and a stronger defence playing, but as Dean Holden has acknowledged we just have too many midfielders.  His first appearance before injury last year was impressive and he comes across as a committed player with a good attitude.   I think he will be the easiest to move on for a reasonable fee - he's got a couple of years at least on his contract and knows he will need game time to keep his place in his national side.  

For all the criticism he gets, Mark Ashton has done well in the transfer market.  Different post Covid though.  He'll really be earning his salary if he recoups the money spent on Palmer, Nagy & Diedhiou.

 

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I find it quite odd that people are keen to rank a youngster who's made a promising start to his career (Bakinson) and a couple of other midfielders we've seen little of (Morrell, Walsh) mainly at lower levels, and a new signing who's not played for us yet in Williams above expensive signings with higher level experience like Nagy, Massengo and Palmer.  I think it's just the usual hype for players not currently in the side who must be the solution to the problem and it's unlikely that there's going to be some massive step up in quality if they are picked. 

Our midfield - much like any midfield - collectively performs badly when the ball is hoofed over them or there is little movement from forward players to create space and options.  It's not a surprise that in games where our wingbacks cannot dominate and the opposing side has too much quality to press hard we are forced narrow and go longer more often and the midfield look bad and put in what seem to be poor individual performances which then get mischaracterised as lack of effort or quality. 

We don't have a well balanced squad and need to shift a couple in the middle of the park for sure, and it's highly unlikely it will be the expensive players we can move on or that a club of our stature will be loaning out a player like Massengo.

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11 minutes ago, Nibor said:

I find it quite odd that people are keen to rank a youngster who's made a promising start to his career (Bakinson) and a couple of other midfielders we've seen little of (Morrell, Walsh) mainly at lower levels, and a new signing who's not played for us yet in Williams above expensive signings with higher level experience like Nagy, Massengo and Palmer.  I think it's just the usual hype for players not currently in the side who must be the solution to the problem and it's unlikely that there's going to be some massive step up in quality if they are picked. 

Our midfield - much like any midfield - collectively performs badly when the ball is hoofed over them or there is little movement from forward players to create space and options.  It's not a surprise that in games where our wingbacks cannot dominate and the opposing side has too much quality to press hard we are forced narrow and go longer more often and the midfield look bad and put in what seem to be poor individual performances which then get mischaracterised as lack of effort or quality. 

We don't have a well balanced squad and need to shift a couple in the middle of the park for sure, and it's highly unlikely it will be the expensive players we can move on or that a club of our stature will be loaning out a player like Massengo.

Eminently balanced and sensible. Which more or less guarantees it will be dismissed, attacked or ignored on OTIB. I liked, though, if it’s any consolation.

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1 hour ago, Nibor said:

I find it quite odd that people are keen to rank a youngster who's made a promising start to his career (Bakinson) and a couple of other midfielders we've seen little of (Morrell, Walsh) mainly at lower levels, and a new signing who's not played for us yet in Williams above expensive signings with higher level experience like Nagy, Massengo and Palmer.  I think it's just the usual hype for players not currently in the side who must be the solution to the problem and it's unlikely that there's going to be some massive step up in quality if they are picked. 

I think it’s because the 3 more ‘established’ ones you mention formed the bulk the midfield last season that was clearly not very good. 
Massengo will come good. But Nagy & Palmer haven’t shown me anywhere near enough to warrant a first team place (nay, even a squad place when everyone’s fit). 
 

It’s not like those 3 have torn up the championship and have masses of experience at the level.

I think most people realise that last years midfield was terrible and want some fresh faces in there, plus people are genuinely excited at seeing if the clear potential of Morrell, Bakinson & Walsh can be realised. 

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4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think it’s because the 3 more ‘established’ ones you mention formed the bulk the midfield last season that was clearly not very good. 
Massengo will come good. But Nagy & Palmer haven’t shown me anywhere near enough to warrant a first team place (nay, even a squad place when everyone’s fit). 
 

It’s not like those 3 have torn up the championship and have masses of experience at the level.

I think most people realise that last years midfield was terrible and want some fresh faces in there, plus people are genuinely excited at seeing if the clear potential of Morrell, Bakinson & Walsh can be realised. 

Nether palmer or nagy formed the bulk of midfield last season as both missed large parts due to injury or not ever being picked 

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