Jump to content

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums

Welcome to One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums, like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community, but don't worry this is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to signup. Be a part of One Team in Bristol - Bristol City Forums by signing in or creating an account.

  • Start new topics and reply to others
  • Full access to all forums (not all viewable as guest)
  • Subscribe to topics and forums to get email updates
  • Get your own profile page and make new friends
  • Send personal messages to other members.
  • Support OTIB with a premium membership

Central midfield and what we're learning game by game


Recommended Posts

I wanted to look at what we've been doing so far in the most interesting selection area for Holden and just say what I feel about what is working and what isn't. So take into account who we're playing and their standard obviously.

vs Exeter: Massengo (Bakinson) Weimann Paterson

vs Coventry: Massengo (Bakinson) Weimann Paterson

These two performances were interesting as neither showed Massengo in a really good light. He was exposed on his own and the was an improvement once Weimann played closer to him. Also captain obvious when Bakinson played at the ends of the games it was better no matter where Weimann was.

vs Northampton Bakinson (Brunt) Nagy Palmer

This was great. All three were energetic and able to  cover ground well.

vs Stoke Bakinson Weimann Paterson (Brunt)

Very good, but IMO Paterson didn't look good attacking here, but he did his running. Bakinson obv very good, Weimann involved a lot.

vs Villa Brunt (Bakinson) Nagy Palmer (Massengo)

Brunt doesn't cover much ground, Nagy does, Palmer is inconsistent. Bakinson covered ground and Massengo played further forward and was energetic for the few mins he was on.

So what is all this? Basically so far (and again look at who we playing) that the more energy and strong ground covering types we have the better the team will perform. So be excited even more for Joe Williams!, and when we have two players in there who aren't strong runners we don't perform as well. Paterson/Massengo x2, Brunt/Palmer tonight.

So you need 2/3 players to be strong runners. you don't need to run and run. (Weimann/Nagy) But you need to be able to do it when necessary. (Bakinson.) When we only have 1/3 as strong runners we look a lot worse.

People generally seeing this the same way?

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Prinny said:

I wanted to look at what we've been doing so far in the most interesting selection area for Holden and just say what I feel about what is working and what isn't. So take into account who we're playing and their standard obviously.

vs Exeter: Massengo (Bakinson) Weimann Paterson

vs Coventry: Massengo (Bakinson) Weimann Paterson

These two performances were interesting as neither showed Massengo in a really good light. He was exposed on his own and the was an improvement once Weimann played closer to him. Also captain obvious when Bakinson played at the ends of the games it was better no matter where Weimann was.

vs Northampton Bakinson (Brunt) Nagy Palmer

This was great. All three were energetic and able to  cover ground well.

vs Stoke Bakinson Weimann Paterson (Brunt)

Very good, but IMO Paterson didn't look good attacking here, but he did his running. Bakinson obv very good, Weimann involved a lot.

vs Villa Brunt (Bakinson) Nagy Palmer (Massengo)

Brunt doesn't cover much ground, Nagy does, Palmer is inconsistent. Bakinson covered ground and Massengo played further forward and was energetic for the few mins he was on.

So what is all this? Basically so far (and again look at who we playing) that the more energy and strong ground covering types we have the better the team will perform. So be excited even more for Joe Williams!, and when we have two players in there who aren't strong runners we don't perform as well. Paterson/Massengo x2, Brunt/Palmer tonight.

So you need 2/3 players to be strong runners. you don't need to run and run. (Weimann/Nagy) But you need to be able to do it when necessary. (Bakinson.) When we only have 1/3 as strong runners we look a lot worse.

People generally seeing this the same way?

I thought Massengo was a contender for MOTM v Exeter, but that’s all about opinions!

But I do get the general point you are making.  Over the past 4/5 years the number of times I watch City and think they are “a bit second best” in the power / strength and pace stakes is plentiful.  It is obviously an area Holden has looked to address.

I’m very excited by Williams too, because he has legs as well as technical ability plus loves a tackle.  So tick for Holden there.

And perhaps the other thing he’s done is fast tack Bakinson, because of exactly what he has.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m pretty sure we could just play with TB on his own in central midfield. I’m thinking a 5-1-4 formation. 

At this rate we'll be filling all the other positions with midfielders anyway mate so it won't make much difference!

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, RedNachos said:

Brunt seems like a pointless signing with the good depth we have in this position. Hasn't played lwb and don't give me this "dressing room pro" shit.

I’d agree with that. I do think he will be useful in some situations when we come across teams who sit deep but then again we have Walsh who can do that. Idk though with Walsh. He doesn’t have a new contract yet and we do have too many in central midfield. I could see him going. If so Brunt becomes our best deep playmaker. Not seen enough of Bakinson in that situation to see if he can answer those questions as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post. The hysterical Nagy thread aside, I feel Nagy is a useful player to address the needed high energy in the middle, and I'm excited to see Williams in the role, and by many accounts sounds like he could come in and do this job with Tyreeq. Where this leaves Morrell and Walsh, I don't know - it'll be really interesting to see who we end up with and who we let go of by the end of the window (I have a funny feeling it might not be who we think)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bakinson looks like a proper, proper footballer.  I've been so impressed with him so far this season.  IMHO it's therefore very exciting to think we have both Joe M & Joe W plus Liam to come in to that midfield.  I think we're in a good place.

  • Like 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

I said the other week that I see Nagy and Palmer being 2 of the players we sell or loan out. I still think that being the case. Palmer gave me a bit of optimism by how hard he appeared to work against Northampton.

But we did have nearly 80 percent of the ball and the game was made for him. He didn't look any more hard working than last season in last night's game which is a shame. I think work rate is important to Holden in that box to box role.

So Nagy, Palmer. And then I see maybe one of Walsh, Morrell or Massengo leaving.

Massengo would be a loan. But Walsh I wonder about because of his contract situation. And Morrell just seems a weird one as we have heard to little about him.

Bakinson, Brunt, Williams are the only ones I'm certain will be here. And I think Paterson unlikely to leave as Holden seems to like him.

If I had a choice I'd loan out Massengo but I don't know if Morrell or Walsh might want to leave.

Another thing is Holden does like Weimann in there which worked so well last week.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

With hindsight, picking brunt from the start to anchor midfield against villa was always going to be tricky. Bringing him on after 65 minutes or so with fresh legs is much more reasonable.

 hopefully bakinson starts for the foreseeable future, but at some point its likely he will have a downturn in form. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

Nail on the head.

Hammer home to the players we have a defined high energy style of play and if they can't fit into that system they are surplus to requirements.

 

It is possibly faster. The teams  patterns in and out of possession is not particularly clear after only hours of competitive football. The team has had players in it who are not high energy and never will be. There is shape but its not a defined system. 

Edited by Cowshed
  • Hmmm 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

With hindsight, picking brunt from the start to anchor midfield against villa was always going to be tricky. Bringing him on after 65 minutes or so with fresh legs is much more reasonable.

 hopefully bakinson starts for the foreseeable future, but at some point its likely he will have a downturn in form. 

Deano’s selection last night was made with one eye on the Championship fixture against the Owls this Sunday and selected several fringe players and consequently an under strength team took the field.

Its no surprise to get comfortably beaten by a PL outfit who reached the final last season.

One thing for sure is that Deano will have learnt a great deal about which of the fringe players will feature in Sunday’s squad.

Edited by Robbored
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we've got away with our hodge-podge midfield selections so far (some of the selections impacted by injuries to 3 of the top candidates, of course).

Holdenball requires two 8s either side of a 6. Despite the convincing win v Stoke I'm not happy with both Weimann and Paterson (natural 10s) being played as 8s. Yes they've produced in attacking areas (duh, they're natural 10s), but the all round box to box and defensive side isn't their thing and they'll get exposed against better opposition (just as they did tail end of last season).

If we're playing two 8s, you want natural 8s in there, which for me is two of Walsh, Williams, Morrell, Nagy and Massengo.

If we're actually playing a 6, an 8, and a 10, that's fine, but select a true 8 and let the 10 be a 10. Let Paterson or Weimann or Palmer play their game without confusing matters.

Perhaps I'm being too square pegs in square holes here? Maybe I'm underestimating how versatile our players are?

Personally, I'd play the lads where they fit best. That's not Weimann in midfield, not Eliasson as wing back, or Rowe as centre back. If we don't have the appropriate cover in the necessary positions we clearly haven't got the right squad.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mozo said:

I think we've got away with our hodge-podge midfield selections so far (some of the selections impacted by injuries to 3 of the top candidates, of course).

Holdenball requires two 8s either side of a 6. Despite the convincing win v Stoke I'm not happy with both Weimann and Paterson (natural 10s) being played as 8s. Yes they've produced in attacking areas (duh, they're natural 10s), but the all round box to box and defensive side isn't their thing and they'll get exposed against better opposition (just as they did tail end of last season).

If we're playing two 8s, you want natural 8s in there, which for me is two of Walsh, Williams, Morrell, Nagy and Massengo.

If we're actually playing a 6, an 8, and a 10, that's fine, but select a true 8 and let the 10 be a 10. Let Paterson or Weimann or Palmer play their game without confusing matters.

Perhaps I'm being too square pegs in square holes here? Maybe I'm underestimating how versatile our players are?

Personally, I'd play the lads where they fit best. That's not Weimann in midfield, not Eliasson as wing back, or Rowe as centre back. If we don't have the appropriate cover in the necessary positions we clearly haven't got the right squad.

Agreed.

I think when all fit, Williams, Walsh, Bakinson looks a good blend. This doesn't leave any room for Paterson or Weiman (both of which seem a clear part of Holden's setup).

I can't see Weimann in midfield working out long term.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed.

I think when all fit, Williams, Walsh, Bakinson looks a good blend. This doesn't leave any room for Paterson or Weiman (both of which seem a clear part of Holden's setup).

I can't see Weimann in midfield working out long term.

Glad you see it too Foggster.

Personally, I'd have Weimann as an option for the front two, Paterson as the creative option on the bench, and Palmer out the door.

Walsh and Morrell are difficult to judge at this level as yet, but Williams and Bakinson are nailed on starters for me.

I've got nothing against Nagy but feels like his days might be numbered.

And le petit tigre, Han-Noah, would always be in the fold for me, but he's gonna struggle to break through now.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed.

I think when all fit, Williams, Walsh, Bakinson looks a good blend. This doesn't leave any room for Paterson or Weiman (both of which seem a clear part of Holden's setup).

I can't see Weimann in midfield working out long term.

It’s not easy for us unqualified fans to see where AW fits to into a full strength City midfield. With Walsh,  Morrell and Bakinson possibly being first choice.

No room for Massengo or Nagy either. 

However AW has played wide left previously and he does seem an essential part of the starting 11 under both LJ and now Deano. 

I think that AW sees himself as a striker but him getting a start there is very unlikely.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s not easy for us unqualified fans to see where AW fits to into a full strength City midfield. With Walsh,  Morrell and Bakinson possibly being first choice.

We're able to have an opinion regardless whether we're 'qualified' or not. I can understand why Holden likes the idea of Weimann in midfield, considering our other fit personnel, but I don't think it's a long term solution. I hope, when he's fit, Williams can replace Weimann's energy in midfield and should be a more natural fit.

7 minutes ago, Robbored said:

No room for Massengo or Nagy either. 

However AW has played wide left previously and he does seem an essential part of the starting 11 under both LJ and now Deano. 

I think that AW sees himself as a striker but him getting a start there is very unlikely.

I think there is room for all players as the season goes on, there'll inevitably be injuries, suspension, fatigue etc that should be factored in. 

If Diedhiou leaves then there's plenty of opportunity for Weimann to play as a forward.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also worth considering that Morrell, Walsh and Williams are likely to be fit and ready for the matchday squad after the international break, which is Barnsley away, 17th October. This coincides with the domestic transfer window closing. So, we'll soon be much clearer on the options.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, TonyTonyTony said:

What's most amazing for me is Bakinson coming out of U23, to being almost the first name on the teamsheet. Its amazing really and fair play to him and also Holden for seeing it.

Yeah, I'm stunned by that. Reminds me of Bobby Reid having that prolific pre-season, and defied expectations by keeping the form going in the league. Before you know it, he's a Premier League player.

I thought that Taylor Moore would be that player last year. Perhaps he should have been given the chance to.

Perhaps Bakinson is doing the Bobby breakthrough this season?

Bloody hope so, particularly as I've been bleating on about having a tall number 6 for ages.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bakinson looks unbelievable. The second he came on v Villa, the game changed and we just seemed so much more progressive.

I don't mind Nic at LWB but he needs Mawson/Baker behind him at LCB to cover for him defensively.

I think my ideal centre mid 3 would be Walsh, Bakinson and Williams with Morrell, Pato and Nagy as back ups/rotation/game specific.

If Palmer could play like he did v Northampton most weeks, he'd be first name on the team sheet and he is the sort of player I love to watch. Similar to what Dembele was at Spurs, a real players player. Problem is, he doesn't. I don't think he was as bad as people made out yesterday, he was given a number of hospital passes which had him under pressure immediately. Also Fammy didn't move last night so only had Semenyo to look for (who looks like a different player this year)

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mozo said:

I think we've got away with our hodge-podge midfield selections so far (some of the selections impacted by injuries to 3 of the top candidates, of course).

Holdenball requires two 8s either side of a 6. Despite the convincing win v Stoke I'm not happy with both Weimann and Paterson (natural 10s) being played as 8s. Yes they've produced in attacking areas (duh, they're natural 10s), but the all round box to box and defensive side isn't their thing and they'll get exposed against better opposition (just as they did tail end of last season).

If we're playing two 8s, you want natural 8s in there, which for me is two of Walsh, Williams, Morrell, Nagy and Massengo.

If we're actually playing a 6, an 8, and a 10, that's fine, but select a true 8 and let the 10 be a 10. Let Paterson or Weimann or Palmer play their game without confusing matters.

Perhaps I'm being too square pegs in square holes here? Maybe I'm underestimating how versatile our players are?

Personally, I'd play the lads where they fit best. That's not Weimann in midfield, not Eliasson as wing back, or Rowe as centre back. If we don't have the appropriate cover in the necessary positions we clearly haven't got the right squad.

That’s a good post. Clear and well argued. Saves me the trouble of typing it, in fact, as it accords pretty closely with what I think myself. And I think you may also be right that with injured players gradually returning and the window closing, things should settle by around mid-October, from which point we should have a better idea of what our preferred midfield will look like (provided, of course, that we don’t sustain more significant injuries to key players).

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, grifty said:

Bakinson looks unbelievable. The second he came on v Villa, the game changed and we just seemed so much more progressive.

I don't mind Nic at LWB but he needs Mawson/Baker behind him at LCB to cover for him defensively.

I think my ideal centre mid 3 would be Walsh, Bakinson and Williams with Morrell, Pato and Nagy as back ups/rotation/game specific.

If Palmer could play like he did v Northampton most weeks, he'd be first name on the team sheet and he is the sort of player I love to watch. Similar to what Dembele was at Spurs, a real players player. Problem is, he doesn't. I don't think he was as bad as people made out yesterday, he was given a number of hospital passes which had him under pressure immediately. Also Fammy didn't move last night so only had Semenyo to look for (who looks like a different player this year)

Having a player up front who can actually hold the ball up and retain possession, i.e. Martin, makes our midfield seem so much better too. Fammy has been very poor in every outing so far. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, CliftonCliff said:

That’s a good post. Clear and well argued. Saves me the trouble of typing it, in fact, as it accords pretty closely with what I think myself. And I think you may also be right that with injured players gradually returning and the window closing, things should settle by around mid-October, from which point we should have a better idea of what our preferred midfield will look like (provided, of course, that we don’t sustain more significant injuries to key players).

You've clearly got excellent judgement 😄

On the flipside, if we beat Wednesday with Pato and Weimann in midfield, I guess I need to shut up about this, at least until we next lose!

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Having a player up front who can actually hold the ball up and retain possession, i.e. Martin, makes our midfield seem so much better too. Fammy has been very poor in every outing so far. 

Without laying the blame at Fam’s door there is a pattern building:

3 starts - Exeter (subbed 80 mins), Coventry (subbed 56 minutes), Villa (subbed 84 minutes) are all games where we’ve struggled to build possession based attacks for chunks of the game as opposed to Stoke and Northampton.

I do think he is “part” of the problem though.  He isn’t a good fit for the way we want to play I’m afraid.  We might all “love him”, but if it were me I’d be lowering any demands for potential suitors and taking whatever we can.

In fairness when he got the ball under last night he did ok and used it decently.  But too often he lost the ball in the challenge or not reading the pass.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Without laying the blame at Fam’s door there is a pattern building:

3 starts - Exeter (subbed 80 mins), Coventry (subbed 56 minutes), Villa (subbed 84 minutes) are all games where we’ve struggled to build possession based attacks for chunks of the game as opposed to Stoke and Northampton.

I do think he is “part” of the problem though.  He isn’t a good fit for the way we want to play I’m afraid.  We might all “love him”, but if it were me I’d be lowering any demands for potential suitors and taking whatever we can.

In fairness when he got the ball under last night he did ok and used it decently.  But too often he lost the ball in the challenge or not reading the pass.

 

 

I also think a big part of this is simply how this season has panned out for him so far.

I am a fan of his but would acknowledge he has been poor so far this season, now whether that is simply down to a run of bad form or the contract situation only he (& possibly Holden) will know.

Until either he leaves or the window closes & he still hasn’t, this won’t be resolved.

What I would say is he is definitely capable of more than he has shown in the 3 games & if he stays will play a significant role this season, rotating with Martin whether as a starter or as a sub.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...