Take a bow Zak and Taylor

[Roger Red Hat]

2 hours ago, Dolman_Stand said:

Being captain he definitely should be straight back in when fit, the question will be Moore or Vyner?

All 3 current cb’s are more comfortable on the ball than TK, so I don’t see it as a straight forward decision. I’d leave it as is at the moment.

[RedNachos]

Taylor Moore is a future captain I have no doubts. Vyner needs to add consistency to his game to be a starter when TK returns. West Brom's reported interest in Moore well justified. Hope we can hang on to him. Good selection problems to have.

 

[054123]

Both ate doing really well.

Its important to try and view this season in the whole. They will both struggle at times and we’ll drop points, obviously, but that shouldn’t detract from the obvious ability they both have.

Both easily good enough for this level.

[tin]

Vyner did ok but his passing let him down. Moore on the other hand was superb and that sweeper role suits him down to the ground. Most of knew he was ready last season, it’s great to see him given (and taking) his chance now. 

[Tangle Foot]

We better start getting some new contracts signed soon!

COYR.

[KeepUpLino]

6 hours ago, Dog said:

Yes both excellent today. However I would say that both Stoke and Sheff Wed are toothless so tougher tests to come.

You are so full of shit!

[Davefevs]

Thought they were good today, probably both better than Mawson today....not by much, but enough.

[GrahamC]

5 hours ago, Dolman_Stand said:

Being captain he definitely should be straight back in when fit, the question will be Moore or Vyner?

We can’t have it both ways, worry that we are light on central defenders & say it is an issue to then have 4 fit & available.

If Kalas was 100% fit I think Vyner would be the one to drop out (after the first couple of games I’d have guessed Moore) but with Mawson having had his injuries in the past & Kalas not exactly a 46 game a season man, all 4 will get plenty of opportunities with Baker out long term.

[downendcity]

4 hours ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

I just think it`s great that we have three players out there who are playing superbly and are youngsters who have put in the hard yards to get where they are.

If you include Antoine, we have a spine of `club-developed` players which is something I didn`t think I`d ever see while we were in the Championship.

Do you think we would have seen this had LJ still been in charge?

After a very promising start to last season, LJ did the exact opposite with TM to what DH did with Bakinson following there Stoke game. Throwing him under the bus, bringing in Williams and then shipping TM out on loan again could have knocked  the young man’s confidence big time, or indeed jeopardised his future with the club. As it is, not for the first time, it shows just what character he has that he is showing what he can do this season.

I think it highly unlikely that Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo would have featured, as they have, under LJ. It is more likely that one, two or all three would have been back on loan while we endured the same problems with the same players and the same tactical issues.

Makes you wonder how players like Engval and Magnussen might have fared had DH been their head coach.

 

 

[BLRed]

Vyner defo the one to get dropped for kalas. Cannot stand the constant Hollywood passing (or more hoof ball) by him that goes to nothing. Yes he’s been solid defensively but let’s us down going forward as gives the ball away more than he should choosing to hit long to nothing rather than looking for a short pass.

[Robbored]

15 hours ago, TomF said:

And yet the clueless predecessor seemed fit to throw him on loan after a good start last year 

LJ would say that Vyner and Moore still needed experience of competitive match’s and as neither would get that at AG - hence the loans

Both have benefited greatly by gaining essential experience at other clubs and now they have matured well and are beginning to form a formidable CB pairing. 

The loan system does work.......Bryan and Reid for example.

[bcfc01]

10 hours ago, BOSRed said:

Vyner defo the one to get dropped for kalas. Cannot stand the constant Hollywood passing (or more hoof ball) by him that goes to nothing. Yes he’s been solid defensively but let’s us down going forward as gives the ball away more than he should choosing to hit long to nothing rather than looking for a short pass.

I think Vyner hit more passes into nowhere yesterday than previous games. Against Stoke I think he had a 90% pass success rate but yesterday was 70%. Maybe @Davefevs can confirm that. Not sure of other games played.

But he's more than capable of cutting out those passes to nowhere if other players show for him.

Him or Moore will be unfortunate to be dropped for Kalas as they've let no one down and done a good job in his absence.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

LJ would say that Vyner and Moore still needed experience of competitive match’s and as neither would get that at AG - hence the loans

Both have benefited greatly by gaining essential experience at other clubs and now they have matured well and are beginning to form a formidable CB pairing. 

The loan system does work.......Bryan and Reid for example.

Re Moore, the failed logic was to sign Benkovic, loan out Moore, and then not play Benkovic.

In my loans article “Pathway or One Loan Too Many”, I acknowledge the brilliant job BT does, but I question the pathway massively.  I accept that some players are signed as a financial punt.  I don’t like that personally, but hey-ho, not my money.  The other issue is perhaps our reticence to make a decision on a player.  Can we track that player into the first team quicker than we do?  I think yes.  I think Bakinson is proving that.  I think Morrell has proved that in his Wales performances too.

People use Reid as a later developer, and the forget that he was still playing championship football, and plenty of it in 15/16 (aged 22) 16/17 (aged 23)  before hitting the big time in 17/18 (aged 24).  He wasn’t as late a developer as people assume.

For info, Aberdeen sent Vyner back, they refused to take him for the second half of the season, mainly due to his shoulder.

30 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I think Vyner hit more passes into nowhere yesterday than previous games. Against Stoke I think he had a 90% pass success rate but yesterday was 70%. Maybe @Davefevs can confirm that. Not sure of other games played.

But he's more than capable of cutting out those passes to nowhere if other players show for him.

Him or Moore will be unfortunate to be dropped for Kalas as they've let no one down and done a good job in his absence.

The hope is that TK knows he can’t just rock up and play, but needs to perform well too.  Captain or not, he might come straight back in (if fit), but I honestly think Holden would leave him out if he didn’t play well.

[Son of Fred]

17 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Very difficult one. Because for me Kalas it better centrally than he is right side.

Vyner looks perfect for that right side.

But then how do we drop Moore after what has been 2 motm performances?

Maybe just don't pick Kalas!? Never thought i'd say that

Moore can play right...

When all fit the 'three has to be Kala's,,Moore,,Mawson.

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Re Moore, the failed logic was to sign Benkovic, loan out Moore, and then not play Benkovic.

In my loans article “Pathway or One Loan Too Many”, I acknowledge the brilliant job BT does, but I question the pathway massively.  I accept that some players are signed as a financial punt.  I don’t like that personally, but hey-ho, not my money.  The other issue is perhaps our reticence to make a decision on a player.  Can we track that player into the first team quicker than we do?  I think yes.  I think Bakinson is proving that.  I think Morrell has proved that in his Wales performances too.

 

For info, Aberdeen sent Vyner back, they refused to take him for the second half of the season, mainly due to his shoulder.
 

Interesting comments Dave.

I certainly agree about Benkovic but I’d like to know how we can fast track youngsters more quickly. You use Bakinson as an example but he’s becoming a special player imo. As for Morrell - no disrespect to Wales but even Partridge played international football for them......

I think the loan system is excellent for providing young players with valuable match experience and would ask if both Vyner and Moore would be the players they are today without that loan experience. I’m pretty confident that they’d both agree that it’s helped them

Yeah, Aberdeen did send Vyner back but not because he was crap. He knackered his shoulder as you say.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Interesting comments Dave.

I certainly agree about Benkovic but I’d like to know how we can fast track youngsters more quickly. You use Bakinson as an example but he’s becoming a special player imo. As for Morrell - no disrespect to Wales but even Partridge played international football for them......

I think the loan system is excellent for providing young players with valuable match experience and would ask if both Vyner and Moore would be the players they are today without that loan experience. I’m pretty confident that they’d both agree that it’s helped them

Yeah, Aberdeen did send Vyner back but not because he was crap. He knackered his shoulder as you say.

Just to follow on, at the start of this season TM had played 146 senior games.  What I’m trying to say is, did we not know he was good enough to be part of the first team squad at an earlier point in that “journey”, certainly without the need to go to Blackpool.  You can bet your bottom dollar they didn’t contribute much to his wages, so it wasn’t a financial decision.  I think LJ paid a bit of lip service to the “pathway”.  Vyner has 100+ senior appearances too.

I would rather we give them the chance earlier and see if they sink or swim.  For me, TM proved in those 24 Champ appearances at the start of last season that he was capable.  There was no need for a loan to Blackpool imho.

We are seeing under Holden what can happen if you give young players the chance.  Vyner got starts at the end of last season under Holden too.

Dont get me wrong there isn’t a perfect development trajectory, but I do think on the whole we have been a bit slow to integrate into our first team squad.

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Just to follow on, at the start of this season TM had played 146 senior games.  What I’m trying to say is, did we not know he was good enough to be part of the first team squad at an earlier point in that “journey”, certainly without the need to go to Blackpool.  You can bet your bottom dollar they didn’t contribute much to his wages, so it wasn’t a financial decision.  I think LJ paid a bit of lip service to the “pathway”.  Vyner has 100+ senior appearances too.

I would rather we give them the chance earlier and see if they sink or swim.  For me, TM proved in those 24 Champ appearances at the start of last season that he was capable.  There was no need for a loan to Blackpool imho.

We are seeing under Holden what can happen if you give young players the chance.  Vyner got starts at the end of last season under Holden too.

Dont get me wrong there isn’t a perfect development trajectory, but I do think on the whole we have been a bit slow to integrate into our first team squad.

If I recall correctly a couple/three seasons ago Vyner did start at RB against Preston I think and was cruelly exposed and we didn’t see him again for quite sometime. That experience certainly didn’t do his confidence  any favours and that can damage a young player so going out on loan was the right thing for him. 
 

As for TM he played at Ipswich and he to got exposed by Brett Pitman I think and again we didn’t see him for a while. Like Vyner that poor experience wouldn’t have done his confidence any good either. The loans obviously  helped him regain his confidence 

Most of us malign LJ and rightly so largely for the shit football he served up but in the case of both Vyner and TM he did give them both a first team opportunity but prematurely and he could see that both needed consistent match time but couldn’t risk either again so the loan system was the only option.

 

[grifty]

19 hours ago, Dog said:

You're getting carried away. He has been up against sides with very little up top.....the key will be against top sides.....for me a useful squad player but if we want to compete with big boys he is a bench player.

Actually, I think the type of strikers they've played against indicates they are doing better than you suggest, regardless of quality. While the strikers may not have been the best in the league, they have played against a variety of different strikers and dealt with them all well.

Godden (technically good, OK in the air) and Walker (quick, good movement) v Coventry. 1 goal conceded from what was a Vyner mistake

Vokes (Good in air, solid Championship striker with premier experience) and Brown (quick, pacey and strong) and Fletcher (Been a top Championship striker for years, excellent in the air and at dark arts) and Campbell came on too who is similar to Brown

Windass (technically good player, an AM playing up front) and Kachunga (I don't rate him personally, but he's played in the Premier League and is sort of an all rounder I guess)

Not much to do in the first two cup games and then smashed by Villa, but I think with Mawson playing, it would have been a bit more structured.

[Davefevs]

22 minutes ago, Robbored said:

If I recall correctly a couple/three seasons ago Vyner did start at RB against Preston I think and was cruelly exposed and we didn’t see him again for quite sometime. That experience certainly didn’t do his confidence  any favours and that can damage a young player so going out on loan was the right thing for him.

How many times do we need to correct you, it was Brighton (h).

It came a few days after his debut at MK Dons (a).  That was 4 1/2 years ago.  I thought it was a risk to play him that night, two games in short succession can be tough....especially as we had M.Little on the bench!
 

As for TM he played at Ipswich and he to got exposed by Brett Pitman I think and again we didn’t see him for a while. Like Vyner that poor experience wouldn’t have done his confidence any good either. The loans obviously  helped him regain his confidence

Pitman scored a worldy overhead kick.  As a CB, I don’t think there was anything wrong with TM’s positioning, but LJ threw him under the bus.  The cross was behind Pitman, so Moore had positioned himself for the cross along the six yard box (correctly).  That was 4 years ago.

Most of us malign LJ and rightly so largely for the shit football he served up but in the case of both Vyner and TM he did give them both a first team opportunity but prematurely and he could see that both needed consistent match time but couldn’t risk either again so the loan system was the only option.

the point I’m making is that it shouldn’t take 4 years and 100+ loan appearances from those experiences to work out whether they are good enough or not.

 

 

[Robbored]

44 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I agree that it shouldn’t take 100 loan appearances to gain the necessary experience but it was the much maligned LJ in charge back then and he wasn’t willing to risk inexperienced youngsters.  The old ‘if you’re good enough, you’re old enough’ didn’t carry any weight with him.

Maybe it’ll be different under Deano............

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Re Moore, the failed logic was to sign Benkovic, loan out Moore, and then not play Benkovic.

In my loans article “Pathway or One Loan Too Many”, I acknowledge the brilliant job BT does, but I question the pathway massively.  I accept that some players are signed as a financial punt.  I don’t like that personally, but hey-ho, not my money.  The other issue is perhaps our reticence to make a decision on a player.  Can we track that player into the first team quicker than we do?  I think yes.  I think Bakinson is proving that.  I think Morrell has proved that in his Wales performances too.

People use Reid as a later developer, and the forget that he was still playing championship football, and plenty of it in 15/16 (aged 22) 16/17 (aged 23)  before hitting the big time in 17/18 (aged 24).  He wasn’t as late a developer as people assume.

For info, Aberdeen sent Vyner back, they refused to take him for the second half of the season, mainly due to his shoulder.

The hope is that TK knows he can’t just rock up and play, but needs to perform well too.  Captain or not, he might come straight back in (if fit), but I honestly think Holden would leave him out if he didn’t play well.

 

I think the key point for me at the moment is that Moore, Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo have all come into the team and shown what they can do. Of the others around the squad, O'Leary also showed the season before last he would not let us down if selected and has two years more experience since then, Morrell is a Welsh international and Walsh was League One Players' Player of the year. 

Meanwhile we've players that have either moved on or are on perpetual loan- Jonny Smith, Rory Holden, and various others - where we're never going to know if they are good enough. We've others - like Morton and Pring - who are surely coming to an age where we also need to start to find out.

Similarly Eisa, Adelakun and Szmodics never really had a chance to show what they could do. Ultimately it might be that some of these players have the wrong attitude and aren't helping themselves in training but I thought that was the exact thing our scouting and analysis network was supposed to suss out and there was meant to be a certain attitude we wanted from our signings (and that's been reflected by what various coaches have said about players in the squad) so it does feel like we are - or at least were -signing far too many - players we are unable to take a risk on. 

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the key point for me at the moment is that Moore, Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo have all come into the team and shown what they can do. Of the others around the squad, O'Leary also showed the season before last he would not let us down if selected and has two years more experience since then, Morrell is a Welsh international and Walsh was League One Players' Player of the year. 

The fact that Morrell is a Welsh international carries little weight with me but he did impress at Lincoln last season. Is he fit currently? I know Walsh was injured but now close to fitness

Meanwhile we've players that have either moved on or are on perpetual loan- Jonny Smith, Rory Holden, and various others - where we're never going to know if they are good enough. We've others - like Morton and Pring - who are surely coming to an age where we also need to start to find out.

Jonny Smith is another that has been tearing up whatever league he’s been in and is now at Swindon going valuable experience. He’s one with plenty of promise but right now where would he fit in at City?

Similarly Eisa, Adelakun and Szmodics never really had a chance to show what they could do. Ultimately it might be that some of these players have the wrong attitude and aren't helping themselves in training but I thought that was the exact thing our scouting and analysis network was supposed to suss out and there was meant to be a certain attitude we wanted from our signings (and that's been reflected by what various coaches have said about players in the squad) so it does feel like we are - or at least were -signing far too many - players we are unable to take a risk on. 

None of the three you mention were considered not to be Championship standard and allowed to move on. Because they weren’t quite upto the level required none of them were given a chance. Szmodics did come on from the bench I recall and was clearly out of his depth. LJ wasn’t going risk playing anyone he considered not quite at the level required - way to much of a gamble.

 

[RedorDead BCFC]

19 minutes ago, Robbored said:

 

Have you seen the Welsh midfield? 
 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Jonny Smith is another that has been tearing up whatever league he’s been in and is now at Swindon going valuable experience. He’s one with plenty of promise but right now where would he fit in at City?

None of the three you mention were considered not to be Championship standard and allowed to move on. Because they weren’t quite upto the level required none of them were given a chance. Szmodics did come on from the bench I recall and was clearly out of his depth. LJ wasn’t going risk playing anyone he considered not quite at the level required - way to much of a gamble.

Both of these comments reflect the point I am making. I'm not arguing that we should have necessarily gambled on Eisa, Szmodics and Adelakun if they were not good enough but I am saying that it's frustrating we signed players that the manager didn't feel was good enough, espeicially if he was correct in that assessment. Obviously you could argue we made a profit on two of those players but nonetheless I feel that, if it was too much of a gamble to play them, it wasn't the right thing to sign them. 

And, with Jonny Smith, it feels he has now proven what he can do and ultimately the club need to decide if what he can do is something we want and need. If not, then surely it is better to find him a permanent move. I just don't see what another loan at a lower level with tell us about him that we don't know already. 

[MC RISK77]

The whole back 3 was my mom yesterday they looked solid and composed, Taylor was the pick.... he is by no means the finished article but even when Kalas and baker is back he has to keep playing, I would love him to have a full season alongside Kalas and Mawson, it will be the making of him.... boy can he pass as well

[The Journalist]

With everyone fit and playing to potential, Nathan Baker isn't getting in my matchday squad.

 

[Sheltons Army]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

None of the three you mention were considered not to be Championship standard and allowed to move on. Because they weren’t quite upto the level required none of them were given a chance. Szmodics did come on from the bench I recall and was clearly out of his depth. LJ wasn’t going risk playing anyone he considered not quite at the level required - way to much of a gamble.

So you , who slate other fans for making quicjpk judgements on players judge Szmodics on a brief look -

hilarious - what a plum

 

I bet he’s mortified  you have judged him to be ‘clearly out of his depth’ on basis of a substitute appearance 

:laugh:

 

 

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

So you , who slate other fans for making quicjpk judgements on players judge Szmodics on a brief look -

hilarious - what a plum

 

I bet he’s mortified  you have judged him to be ‘clearly out of his depth’ on basis of a substitute appearance 

 

Well......I’m no coach but I could see almost immediately that he was either trying to hard to impress or simply out of his depth. He didn’t seem to have any idea as to what he was supposed to be doing.

Szmodics was one of only four or five players where I’ve seen that. Akinde was one, Gilepsie, Scot Brown Pennyfather were anothers.

Sometimes it’s perfect obvious when a player isn’t up to standard 

[CyderInACan]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

He didn’t seem to have any idea as to what he was supposed to be doing

It’s perfectly possible of course that he was just totally baffled by LJ’s tactical waffle!

[KeepUpLino]

13 hours ago, Dog said:

Let's look at their strikers goal scoring record:

Stoke.

Gregory - 8 in 45

Vokes - 8 in 53

Campbell - 9 in 43

Brown - 11 in 78 (barns)

Fletcher - 36 in 130 (sheff)

Sheff wed:

Rhodes - 12 in 70

Kachunga - 4 in 80 (hudd)

Windass - 13 in 70 (wigan)

So yea, hate to be the bearer of bad news.....but these stats speak for themselves 

 

Thanks for the effort mate but i really don't care.. We're top!!