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I’ve just seen the Dier penalty.  Jeez, I don’t care what the rules are, the ref has made himself look stupid.  He should’ve given no-penalty, been reprimanded by his assessor / head of refs, and told him to shove the stupid rules up his arse.

They've got an international break to sort themselves out.

You've got to give refs the power to decide whether it is handball or not....whoever decided the current rules should be shot.

 

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The Premier league demanded VAR, the players demanded VAR, the pundits demanded VAR and (to a much lesser extent) the fans demanded VAR.

They all said that "referees need help" so, now they have help, every micro law of the game will be applied. Soon you will have every throw in, every corner, every free kick analysed "in match" and games will last 3 hours.

The good old days were where we argued the toss over "it will even itself out over the season" when we thought we had been robbed by an offside or a handball or a penalty,  which was 2 or 3 times a season. 

Thank goodness they are testing all this crap using an uncompetitive league like the Prem, where, frankly, 3 points a season doesn't make a difference to the teams finishing at the top and the teams going down, rather than in the Championship, because I really can't be bothered by it.

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I suspect that most of us thought that when VAR was introduced it would give referees access to replays to help them come to the correct decision, whether it be offside or handball.

However, as it now turns out VAR has been used by football’s administrators to take decision making away from the on field officials because, as far as handball penalty decisions are concerned, they  they have “cleverly” introduced a black and white set of rules that, combined with VAR review mean that the referees judgement and interpretation is no longer applied.

We now have the farcical situation where what would be penalised as handball inside the penalty area would not be penalised as such anywhere else on the pitch. 

When a manager, who’s team benefited from such a decision, says “we have lost the plot”  then you know the inmates truly have taken over the asylum!

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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

I suspect that most of us thought that when VAR was introduced it would give referees access to replays to help them come to the correct decision, whether it be offside or handball.

However, as it now turns out VAR has been used by football’s administrators to take decision making away from the on field officials because, as far as handball penalty decisions are concerned, they  they have “cleverly” introduced a black and white set of rules that, combined with VAR review mean that the referees judgement and interpretation is no longer applied.

We now have the farcical situation where what would be penalised as handball inside the penalty area would not be penalised as such anywhere else on the pitch. 

When a manager, who’s team benefited from such a decision, says “we have lost the plot”  then you know the inmates truly have taken over the asylum!

I find it strange that the on-field ref, who has set his own benchmark for what is a foul, what isn’t, etc, then has his judgement taken away by VAR.

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17 hours ago, downendcity said:

Steve Bruce hit the nail on the head - “we’ve lost the plot” 

On MOTD 2 they’ve confirmed that FIFA want standardised handball rules across all leagues, including the one that meant Dier was penalised today. Those rules applied lasts season in La Liga and Serie A  where 47 and 53 penalties were awarded, whereas in the premier league, where FIFA handball rules did not apply, there were only 19!

 

 

 

 

Its was hardly just FIFA. There have been a calls for consistency and the use of technology for an extended period in the UK. The Premier league is now following global rules consistently. Using VAR sees this universal application being applied. These decisions are correct. 

Now consistency is not desirable.  

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6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I find it strange that the on-field ref, who has set his own benchmark for what is a foul, what isn’t, etc, then has his judgement taken away by VAR.

A massive problem for the on field referee is, and always has been, the angle he sees an incident/foul. He gives an honest decision on what he can see, then the tv cameras show the incident/foul from about ten different angles, nine of which were impossible for him to see. So we then had the tv audience and the commentators having a go at the ref after about the fifth angle is shown, demonising the referee who only had his one angle. 

Now we have VAR doing the exact same thing, it makes the referee’s job much harder imo, I wish VAR could just be scrapped, accept referees only have one pair of eyes and one angle, then finally just get football back to the sport we all used to love. Because I’m seriously struggling to enjoy the top level now. 

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47 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Its was hardly just FIFA. There have been a calls for consistency and the use of technology for an extended period in the UK. The Premier league is now following global rules consistently. Using VAR sees this universal application being applied. These decisions are correct. 

Now consistency is not desirable.  

These decisions are "correct" only because the rules have been changed to be farcical.

This has nothing to do with consistency, which is of course desirable, because we could have had consistency without shit rule changes.

All we needed was to modify last season's use of VAR by instructing referees to use TV screens instead of relying on idiots on the panel.  That was all that was required.

We've now got laws that look like this:

Quote

It is an offence if a player: 

  • deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball
  • scores in the opponents’ goal directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper
  • after the ball has touched their or a team-mate’s hand/arm, even if accidental, immediately:
    • scores in the opponents’ goal
    • creates a goal-scoring opportunity
  • touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
    • the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger
    • the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm

The above offences apply even if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close.

Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:

  • directly from the player’s own head or body (including the foot)
  • directly from the head or body (including the foot) of another player who is close
  • if the hand/arm is close to the body and does not make the body unnaturally bigger
  • when a player falls and the hand/arm is between the body and the ground to support the body, but not extended laterally or vertically away from the body

The goalkeeper has the same restrictions on handling the ball as any other player outside the penalty area. If the goalkeeper handles the ball inside their penalty area when not permitted to do so, an indirect free kick is awarded but there is no disciplinary sanction.  However, if the offence is playing the ball a second time (with or without the hand/arm) after a restart before it touches another player, the goalkeeper must be sanctioned if the offence stops a promising attack or denies an opponent or the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity.  

This is hugely over complex and is making the game consistently less enjoyable to watch or play. 

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31 minutes ago, Nibor said:

These decisions are "correct" only because the rules have been changed to be farcical.

This has nothing to do with consistency, which is of course desirable, because we could have had consistency without shit rule changes.

All we needed was to modify last season's use of VAR by instructing referees to use TV screens instead of relying on idiots on the panel.  That was all that was required.

We've now got laws that look like this:

This is hugely over complex and is making the game consistently less enjoyable to watch or play. 

It is do to with consistency. Referees and FA's were instructed about this prior to the season and as a coach I attended one of the nationwide sessions the FA ran on rule changes. Refs didn't like the changes due to the ethos of the game, and I prior to this season made a point about physiological dynamics and the handball rule, the rules does not take the mechanics into acount, but they are more consistent.

It is very hard to have consitency with subjective rules. The subjectivity has been removed. Referees apply the rules now as they are written, not as they were formerly open to interpretation. 

The laws are not particularly complex.  

I personally prefer the subjective, a game of flaws and imperfections where the referee and assistants make decisions based on laws taking into account dynamics and the spirit of the game at all levels ... But that is not what many want.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It is do to with consistency. Referees and FA's were instructed about this prior to the season and as a coach I attended one of the nationwide sessions the FA ran on rule changes. Refs didn't like the changes due to the ethos of the game, and I prior to this season made a point about physiological dynamics and the handball rule, the rules does not take the mechanics into acount, but they are more consistent.

It is very hard to have consitency with subjective rules. The subjectivity has been removed. Referees apply the rules now as they are written, not as they were formerly open to interpretation. 

The laws are not particularly complex.  

I personally prefer the subjective, a game of flaws and imperfections where the referee and assistants make decisions based on laws taking into account dynamics and the spirit of the game at all levels ... But that is not what many want.

The people whinging about consistency were largely managers and pundits, not fans, who are universally reviling these changes.

You can have consistency and subjectivity with training and skilled referees, the tools are now there but instead of trying to use them properly they made the rules far too complicated.

A simple objective rule would be just removing the word "deliberate" and calling handball whenever it strikes and arm or hand.  This Frankenstein mess is pathetic and awful to watch and it will get rolled back, but sadly not until after they've ruined a season or two.

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

 

Its was hardly just FIFA. There have been a calls for consistency and the use of technology for an extended period in the UK. The Premier league is now following global rules consistently. Using VAR sees this universal application being applied. These decisions are correct. 

Now consistency is not desirable.  

 

1 hour ago, Nibor said:

These decisions are "correct" only because the rules have been changed to be farcical.

This has nothing to do with consistency, which is of course desirable, because we could have had consistency without shit rule changes.

All we needed was to modify last season's use of VAR by instructing referees to use TV screens instead of relying on idiots on the panel.  That was all that was required.

We've now got laws that look like this:

This is hugely over complex and is making the game consistently less enjoyable to watch or play. 

How can it be considered consistent that the penalty awarded for Dier’s “handball” would not be penalised had it happened anywhere else on the pitch, other than in the penalty area? It would not be an offence because VSAR would not be applied, as it is not a penalty area incident, and I can’t believe any referee would have penalised Dier - as was the case with yesterday’s referee. 

I agree with Nibor that it is the new handball laws are the problem the problem.

What is the new law?

It's not technically "new" as it has been in force across Europe last season, but the Premier League is now taking a more strict approach. So that means a player will be penalised for handball if:

  • The hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the "body line".
  • The player clearly leans into the path of the ball.
  • The ball travels some distance.
  • The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.
  • The player falls and the hand/arm is extended laterally or vertically away from the body.
  • A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder.
  • Immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal-scoring opportunity.

I am intrigued as to how a player can fall without his arm/hand being extended laterally or vertically away from his body - unless he wants the risk of incurring an injury.

Also, who decides what constitutes “some distance”, as if the Dier indcident is anything to go by it means any distance. Having said that, there were other penalty area handball incidents in the Spurs game  where the ball came to the defenders hand from further away than was the case in the Dier incident, yet there was no VAR revue, or if there was no penalty was awarded. Is it perhaps the case that a last minute penalty decision “heightens’ the excitement of the football product the football authorities are offering?

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1 hour ago, downendcity said:

 

How can it be considered consistent that the penalty awarded for Dier’s “handball” would not be penalised had it happened anywhere else on the pitch, other than in the penalty area? It would not be an offence because VSAR would not be applied, as it is not a penalty area incident, and I can’t believe any referee would have penalised Dier - as was the case with yesterday’s referee. 

I agree with Nibor that it is the new handball laws are the problem the problem.

What is the new law?

It's not technically "new" as it has been in force across Europe last season, but the Premier League is now taking a more strict approach. So that means a player will be penalised for handball if:

  • The hand/arm is clearly away from the body and outside the "body line".
  • The player clearly leans into the path of the ball.
  • The ball travels some distance.
  • The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.
  • The player falls and the hand/arm is extended laterally or vertically away from the body.
  • A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder.
  • Immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal-scoring opportunity.

I am intrigued as to how a player can fall without his arm/hand being extended laterally or vertically away from his body - unless he wants the risk of incurring an injury.

Also, who decides what constitutes “some distance”, as if the Dier indcident is anything to go by it means any distance. Having said that, there were other penalty area handball incidents in the Spurs game  where the ball came to the defenders hand from further away than was the case in the Dier incident, yet there was no VAR revue, or if there was no penalty was awarded. Is it perhaps the case that a last minute penalty decision “heightens’ the excitement of the football product the football authorities are offering?

At the zenith of the game penalties will be given consistently for infringements inside the box. Technology will assist this. The rules are moving to a black and white position like hockey. Football at its peak is a product, technology is part of that product, its panto.

Below that peak, the game is two tiered. Refereeing and player and footballs behaviour alters as you go up and down the pyramid. 

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17 hours ago, Nibor said:

The people whinging about consistency were largely managers and pundits, not fans, who are universally reviling these changes.

You can have consistency and subjectivity with training and skilled referees, the tools are now there but instead of trying to use them properly they made the rules far too complicated.

A simple objective rule would be just removing the word "deliberate" and calling handball whenever it strikes and arm or hand.  This Frankenstein mess is pathetic and awful to watch and it will get rolled back, but sadly not until after they've ruined a season or two.

Removing all intent from the handball rule would be the worst possible outcome; as Roy Hodgson pointed out, the aim of the rule is to stop players cheating by intending to control the ball with their hand or arm. Penalising accidental contact would be/is farcical.

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2 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Removing all intent from the handball rule would be the worst possible outcome; as Roy Hodgson pointed out, the aim of the rule is to stop players cheating by intending to control the ball with their hand or arm. Penalising accidental contact would be/is farcical.

It would at least be completely objective.  What we have now is the worst of all worlds, a subjective decision reached at great interruption to the game which still penalises accidental contact.

We either need to leave the rule as it was and let referees use video to make subjective (and occasionally wrong) decisions or make it fully objective. 

I prefer we don't penalise accidental handball too, I think all the ball to hand, unnatural position nonsense has always clouded it and led to unfair penalties but the changes this season have made occasional bad decisions routinely ridiculous.

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58 minutes ago, Nibor said:

It would at least be completely objective.  What we have now is the worst of all worlds, a subjective decision reached at great interruption to the game which still penalises accidental contact.

We either need to leave the rule as it was and let referees use video to make subjective (and occasionally wrong) decisions or make it fully objective. 

I prefer we don't penalise accidental handball too, I think all the ball to hand, unnatural position nonsense has always clouded it and led to unfair penalties but the changes this season have made occasional bad decisions routinely ridiculous.

I don’t disagree. My feeling though is that too many handball decisions have been given for years. As a defender in the area, you’d have to be an idiot to deliberately handle the ball and give away a penalty except where you’re pretty sure that a goal is being prevented otherwise. As an attacker there is an incentive to control the ball if you think you can get away with it. On the whole though, I would guess that 75% of free kicks are being given where there is very little intent involved, but the ball is bouncing around at waist level and at high speed.

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54 minutes ago, Nibor said:

It would at least be completely objective.  What we have now is the worst of all worlds, a subjective decision reached at great interruption to the game which still penalises accidental contact.

We either need to leave the rule as it was and let referees use video to make subjective (and occasionally wrong) decisions or make it fully objective. 

I prefer we don't penalise accidental handball too, I think all the ball to hand, unnatural position nonsense has always clouded it and led to unfair penalties but the changes this season have made occasional bad decisions routinely ridiculous.

The “new” handball laws are not completely objective though Nibor.

One of the new handball laws  says that a player will be penalised for handball if the the ball travels some distance . How is  “some distance” measured, and who decides what that distance is, as different personnel on the VAR booth could have differing interpretations of that distance.

Similarly, the new laws determine that it is handball if a player deliberately leans into the path of the ball. Assuming the players arm(s) are not extended laterally or vertically away from the body ( as this would constitute a handball on it’s own under another of  the new laws!) what if the defender had been pushed, so was falling towards the path of the ball, rather than leaning into the ball - all to easy in a crowded penalty area at, say, a corner? Presumably the VAR officials have to determine if it was a deliberate movement by the player or accidental, in that was pushed. Yet again it requires someone to make a judgement so cannot be objective.

A major inconsistency I see is the new law that says that the player will be penalised for handball if immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal scoring opportunity.

Now it might be the way it is worded, or my interpretation, but this seems to indicate that if an attacking player handles the ball accidentally in the opposition penalty area, it would not be penalised as handball if he did not then immediately score or create a goal scoring opportunity. If so,  then it seems to create a two tier law, as the concept of accidental handball no longer applies to defenders in their own penalty area, as we saw with Dier’s incident on Sunday. How can you have the same incident being penalised or not depending on which player was involved and where the incident took place?

My main concern with all of this is that more and more of the final decision making is being taken away from on field officials to unaccountable officials miles from the action. In my view the use of technology has been taken a step to far. By all means give referees access to replays from different angles to enable them to better interpret what actually happened. That they will excercise a judgement that might well still be questioned by players, managers, pundits and fans is almost a given, but it is more difficult for those criticising such judgements knowing that every means has been provided to avoid an error.

At the moment it seems to me that everyone in the game - players, managers, pundits and fans- feels the heart of the game is being taken away from them due to the application of prescriptive rules/laws laid down by administrators, and that many of those laws appear to have been drafted so as to change the complexion of the game from that which I have known for 60 years.

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On 28/09/2020 at 07:00, Mad Cyril said:

"His hand was in an unnatural position, he was attempting to make himself bigger".

A football pitch is no place for that sort of behaviour. Frankly, it's disgusting.

Agreed Cyril.

You can by specialist equipment for such a purpose from Exchange & Mart ( or some such publication)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

..... or so a friend  told me!

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10 minutes ago, downendcity said:

The “new” handball laws are not completely objective though Nibor.

One of the new handball laws  says that a player will be penalised for handball if the the ball travels some distance . How is  “some distance” measured, and who decides what that distance is, as different personnel on the VAR booth could have differing interpretations of that distance.

Similarly, the new laws determine that it is handball if a player deliberately leans into the path of the ball. Assuming the players arm(s) are not extended laterally or vertically away from the body ( as this would constitute a handball on it’s own under another of  the new laws!) what if the defender had been pushed, so was falling towards the path of the ball, rather than leaning into the ball - all to easy in a crowded penalty area at, say, a corner? Presumably the VAR officials have to determine if it was a deliberate movement by the player or accidental, in that was pushed. Yet again it requires someone to make a judgement so cannot be objective.

A major inconsistency I see is the new law that says that the player will be penalised for handball if immediately after touching the ball with the arm, even accidentally, the player scores a goal or creates a goal scoring opportunity.

Now it might be the way it is worded, or my interpretation, but this seems to indicate that if an attacking player handles the ball accidentally in the opposition penalty area, it would not be penalised as handball if he did not then immediately score or create a goal scoring opportunity. If so,  then it seems to create a two tier law, as the concept of accidental handball no longer applies to defenders in their own penalty area, as we saw with Dier’s incident on Sunday. How can you have the same incident being penalised or not depending on which player was involved and where the incident took place?

My main concern with all of this is that more and more of the final decision making is being taken away from on field officials to unaccountable officials miles from the action. In my view the use of technology has been taken a step to far. By all means give referees access to replays from different angles to enable them to better interpret what actually happened. That they will excercise a judgement that might well still be questioned by players, managers, pundits and fans is almost a given, but it is more difficult for those criticising such judgements knowing that every means has been provided to avoid an error.

At the moment it seems to me that everyone in the game - players, managers, pundits and fans- feels the heart of the game is being taken away from them due to the application of prescriptive rules/laws laid down by administrators, and that many of those laws appear to have been drafted so as to change the complexion of the game from that which I have known for 60 years.

I agree - that's one of the points I was making.  "Worst of every world".

I think most fans would want:

  • in the main, refs making decisions as they always have done and getting the occasional one wrong
  • the "panel" only used to make a ref aware of something they've completely missed or might want to look at again
  • in those cases the ref to quickly watch a replay and decide
  • offsides where people are counting pixels to be onside as a benefit of the doubt
  • handballs to be given far less frequently than they were even before the current brain fart - i.e. when it's certain that a player has deliberately handled it by moving their arm towards a ball that they had time to react to
  • the same standard for handballs and other fouls applied all over the pitch
  • diving to be harshly punished

I don't think it's complicated and I don't understand why the authorities get this so wrong.

 

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