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AW - he’s only what fans ask for!


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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

So is this post seriously suggesting Pato is competing for a place in our midfield?

Because on current form there is absolutely no question he is our first choice, no matter who out of our other 86 midfield players is fit.

I said one of Weimann or Pato for midfield so we're not in disagreement!

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I've been a sceptic of Weimann and Paterson but more so Weimann in midfield but it seems to be working- everyone seems to be contributing, our defensive numbers are undoubtedly improving.

It doesn't feel a natural fit in the case of Weimann in central midfield especially but their numbers defensively have been okay too- improved on what they put in before in any case- another undoubted positive about having them both in CM is that in certain phases they can a) Pull wider to support the LWB in attack and b) Help to cover the wing back in defence.

Of course there are- will be- tougher tests to come. It's a long season but so far so excellent.

I also forgot to add, their naturally attacking instincts means that they are perhaps more prone to being fouled and to winning fouls- free kicks to break up play, get the defence a breather or a foothold higher up the pitch in certain phases.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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I like Weimann anyway and would always have him in and around the team, but he is growing on me as a midfield option. I think that could possibly be because we have improved our composure elsewhere (Moore, Bakinson & Martin for starters), therefore we can afford to accommodate some of Weimann's shortcomings for all of the good attributes he brings to the team.

Only time will tell if there are sides in the Championship that will expose our current midfield, like it was at times before Bakinson took over. However the signs are promising and Weimann the midfielder has become a big part of that.

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6 hours ago, spudski said:

He's ok when played in a position that suits his strengths.

He was ineffective and part of the problem when played wide.

Runs and presses like no other.

His technical ability isn't so good.

If he had both he'd be some player.

I think his technical ability is better than that - for me, it's about being able to slow things down in his mind when he's working at 100mph.

If you go through all of his goals for us, so many of them are first-time, instinctive - and technical - finishes. Yet he can end up looking so rushed and panicked when the game opens up in front of him, often fluffing a straightforward pass or hurrying a shot and blazing it over.

Would love to know if/how that's been identified by coaches over the years and if/how it's been worked on.

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6 hours ago, spudski said:

He's ok when played in a position that suits his strengths.

He was ineffective and part of the problem when played wide.

Runs and presses like no other.

His technical ability isn't so good.

If he had both he'd be some player.

Dan Bentley would probably struggle if he was played at wing back..! 

And Christiano Ronaldo is probably a crap linesman..! 

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You know how he’s always giving the ball away?

6633F4B6-D914-423D-AE80-30585772B707.thumb.jpeg.ab5d16f2b50a9ef1438716f4ecf64da3.jpeg

I bet we all groaned when he slid that ball down the side of the 18 yard box in the first half and straight out for a goal kick.  Pretty bloody good passing other that that!

Player average positions of where they jaded their passes from too.

CBA9E0EB-43D7-49D8-857C-03DDE2223A94.thumb.jpeg.5e7049c9cd0f68703fc6f6b73011fdb9.jpeg

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

You know how he’s always giving the ball away?

6633F4B6-D914-423D-AE80-30585772B707.thumb.jpeg.ab5d16f2b50a9ef1438716f4ecf64da3.jpeg

I bet we all groaned when he slid that ball down the side of the 18 yard box in the first half and straight out for a goal kick.  Pretty bloody good passing other that that!

Player average positions of where they jaded their passes from too.

CBA9E0EB-43D7-49D8-857C-03DDE2223A94.thumb.jpeg.5e7049c9cd0f68703fc6f6b73011fdb9.jpeg

Runs around a lot doesnt he .......

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

You know how he’s always giving the ball away?

6633F4B6-D914-423D-AE80-30585772B707.thumb.jpeg.ab5d16f2b50a9ef1438716f4ecf64da3.jpeg

I bet we all groaned when he slid that ball down the side of the 18 yard box in the first half and straight out for a goal kick.  Pretty bloody good passing other that that!

Player average positions of where they jaded their passes from too.

CBA9E0EB-43D7-49D8-857C-03DDE2223A94.thumb.jpeg.5e7049c9cd0f68703fc6f6b73011fdb9.jpeg

Outlier?

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You know how he’s always giving the ball away?

To be fair I thought he was better in that game than previous but bear in mind it's not just misplaced passes that give the ball away.

Edited by Nibor
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16 minutes ago, Nibor said:

To be fair I thought he was better in that game than previous but bear in mind it's not just misplaced passes that give the ball away.

Yeah @Davefevs stats back up my intuition which was that he wasn't at all frustrating in this game, in contrast to a large number of his performances in 2020. More of the same please!

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41 minutes ago, Nibor said:

To be fair I thought he was better in that game than previous but bear in mind it's not just misplaced passes that give the ball away.

Absolutely.....it’s just a view of his passes and the usual suspects saying he “gives every pass away”...when he doesn’t.

Won 7 of his 15 duels

Recovered 2 loose balls in our own half.

I agree that he was better yesterday, but he’s not been as bad as others make out in other games this season.

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50 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Absolutely.....it’s just a view of his passes and the usual suspects saying he “gives every pass away”...when he doesn’t.

Won 7 of his 15 duels

Recovered 2 loose balls in our own half.

I agree that he was better yesterday, but he’s not been as bad as others make out in other games this season.

Not a fan of those pass stats mate...as they don't ever show what happens after the pass.

You can complete a pass to someone and put that player under immense pressure, and then they lose the ball.

Like Hunts pass inside in the first half against Wednesday, that was completed, but led to the receiver being dispossessed and the opposition having a shot at goal.

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Just now, spudski said:

Not a fan of those pass stats mate...as they don't ever show what happens after the pass.

You can complete a pass to someone and put that player under immense pressure, and then they lose the ball.

Like Hunts pass inside in the first half against Wednesday, that was completed, but led to the receiver being dispossessed and the opposition having a shot at goal.

Poor touch from Bakinson!!!

All stats caveated by context mate, they just back up (in the main) what I see with my eyes.  Never rely solely on stats, but they provide some evidence / indication.  At least a picture shows that they aren’t a 95% passer because they are all backwards passes.

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Weimann’s a great pro, the best pro in the squad dare I say. Works his socks off every game in the Championship. But work-rate and professionalism alone wouldn’t see him walk into Leeds, West Brom or Fulham’s starting XI or any other club with genuine ambitions of promotion.

I hope when Morrell, Walsh and Williams are all fully fit, Weimann reverts back to a second striker option from the bench. I think Pato is more vulnerable than Weimann, though. 

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Poor touch from Bakinson!!!

All stats caveated by context mate, they just back up (in the main) what I see with my eyes.  Never rely solely on stats, but they provide some evidence / indication.  At least a picture shows that they aren’t a 95% passer because they are all backwards passes.

Oh I agree...use stats and eyes for sure. I just feel stats have stagnated a little and need to show positive or negative outcomes after passes or Airial duals etc.

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26 minutes ago, spudski said:

Oh I agree...use stats and eyes for sure. I just feel stats have stagnated a little and need to show positive or negative outcomes after passes or Airial duals etc.

The pros have exactly this data.

I’m grateful for what @IAmNick”obtains” for me.

If I had to get it from Wyscout, it would cost me a fortune.

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The pros have exactly this data.

I’m grateful for what @IAmNick”obtains” for me.

If I had to get it from Wyscout, it would cost me a fortune.

I wasn't sure how far Stats had come of late. If that's the case, that's far more informative. 👍😎

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13 hours ago, SStandUp said:

Andreas Weinmann

Arguably good enough to be starting in that XI

Arguably not good enough to be starting in that XI

But, I have never seen a Bristol City player work harder in a City shirt than Weinmann does. 
 

The attacking and recovery runs he makes for 90 mins is something else.

I really do hope the respect he deserves is put on his name by everyone, and that it remains on his name even during difficult spells of results.

What a player, proud to have him in our shirt! 

...ooohh - very surprised that @redordead1 and @SuperRed haven’t replied to your brill post with their usual ‘laughing emoji’  when someone praises Weimann - yet they can’t add anything to the debate other than that ... 

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Poor touch from Bakinson!!!

All stats caveated by context mate, they just back up (in the main) what I see with my eyes.  Never rely solely on stats, but they provide some evidence / indication.  At least a picture shows that they aren’t a 95% passer because they are all backwards passes.

I thought it was a poor touch mostly because of the awkward ball played into him but I think that's beside the point.

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Just now, mozo said:

I thought it was a poor touch mostly because of the awkward ball played into him but I think that's beside the point.

Yes, I was half-joking.  Hunt “forcing it”....Bakinson perhaps one to just help on first time.

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

Oh I agree...use stats and eyes for sure. I just feel stats have stagnated a little and need to show positive or negative outcomes after passes or Airial duals etc.

Genuine question: what do you think would be more interesting or useful to you?

How many passes were completed after a players pass perhaps? How many passes ended up with a key pass or shot at the end of the move compared to a loss of the ball? That sort of thing?

There's basically every interaction with the ball recorded, but it's hard to know how to structure that in a useful way so others can make use it to tell a story, so any thoughts are appreciated.

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9 hours ago, spudski said:

Not a fan of those pass stats mate...as they don't ever show what happens after the pass.

You can complete a pass to someone and put that player under immense pressure, and then they lose the ball.

Like Hunts pass inside in the first half against Wednesday, that was completed, but led to the receiver being dispossessed and the opposition having a shot at goal.

Is that the pass to Bakinson? That was a 'successful pass' but was actually a very bad one like you say.

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8 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Genuine question: what do you think would be more interesting or useful to you?

How many passes were completed after a players pass perhaps? How many passes ended up with a key pass or shot at the end of the move compared to a loss of the ball? That sort of thing?

There's basically every interaction with the ball recorded, but it's hard to know how to structure that in a useful way so others can make use it to tell a story, so any thoughts are appreciated.

The guys at Mrkt Insights are tracking every pass and giving it their internal pass-score.  I guess they are looking at pass chains and seeing what passes ultimately end up with a goal / chance?

If I look at the raw dataset you provide, I should be able to work out the ID of the pass that led to a goal, so I could then look at the preceding passes and at least show the passes in that goal move.

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9 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Genuine question: what do you think would be more interesting or useful to you?

How many passes were completed after a players pass perhaps? How many passes ended up with a key pass or shot at the end of the move compared to a loss of the ball? That sort of thing?

There's basically every interaction with the ball recorded, but it's hard to know how to structure that in a useful way so others can make use it to tell a story, so any thoughts are appreciated.

I think the 'outcome' of every stat needs to be looked at to give a better picture.

For example... Airial duals won mean nothing if the ball finishes 50/50 or with the opposition.

The example I gave of Hunts pass, will go down as a completed pass by Hunt and dispossessed on Bakinson. It doesn't show you that Hunts ball was not the best, even though Bakinson got a foot to it.

Outcomes of actions would give better info.

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11 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think the 'outcome' of every stat needs to be looked at to give a better picture.

For example... Airial duals won mean nothing if the ball finishes 50/50 or with the opposition.

The example I gave of Hunts pass, will go down as a completed pass by Hunt and dispossessed on Bakinson. It doesn't show you that Hunts ball was not the best, even though Bakinson got a foot to it.

Outcomes of actions would give better info.

Passes around the corner which the opposing team has to deal with running towards their own goal can be a good pass even if it is to the opposition.

For me running stats are probably the most clear stats for how a player has done. Everything else can be misleading.

But what they can do is suggest someone is good or bad at something over many games and then people can see why those stats are what they are.

But then just watching them would show what they are good and bad at anyway!

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He supplies goals from midfield which we have always needed more of, he also commits defenders which creates space.

The thing I have noticed most from the first few games this season is the improved "dynamism". I wouldn't go as far as to say we are a pacey side, but we have more willing runners and movement for longer periods of the game, AW is a key part of that.

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

Passes around the corner which the opposing team has to deal with running towards their own goal can be a good pass even if it is to the opposition.

For me running stats are probably the most clear stats for how a player has done. Everything else can be misleading.

But what they can do is suggest someone is good or bad at something over many games and then people can see why those stats are what they are.

But then just watching them would show what they are good and bad at anyway!

Interest hypothesis - In what way?

Just an example, but running lots at high intensity because you got caught out of position, is that good or bad?

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1 hour ago, JonDolman said:

But then just watching them would show what they are good and bad at anyway!

This is true, but I think we all form subconscious biases either for or against players which then cloud the opinion we form from purely watching them. We also all have types of player we like, and we're more likely to rate them highly.

For example I never liked Johnson as a player, and in my eyes at the time he could basically do no right. I fully admit it was unfair!

Using the right stats in addition to just watching them can help you inspect and remove those biases, and makes sure we're being objective... Of course as a fan not being objective is half the fun sometimes!

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