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The end of football as we know it?


CyderInACan

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8 minutes ago, 2015 said:

I think it a bit different as I think Football is part of the community, whereas Virgin airlines isn't and Football effects so many people in this Country that it cannot be ignored.

I did also say it isn't fair to call out the wealthy teams to bail them out, it should be their choice.

Virgin has thousands of suppliers, staff, local businesses all connected

Their routes add billions to the UK economy.

We are talking about football...

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, BetterRedthenBlue said:

If the government and PL do help out the EFL the money needs to be split equally with every side in every division not championship get x, league one get y and league two get z. 

Because I'm just concerned a Derby County or a Reading will get a disproportionate amount compared to a team in a lower league that is being run well but is at risk because they aren't getting fans in. 

I do hope after all of this there's a whole review of how clubs are run because quite a few championship clubs are spending beyond their means to either get to the promised land of money or to even stay in the division because dropping down to league one would be another nail in the coffin. 

It's not just football though, most Gallagher premiership teams have said they won't survive to the new year if fans aren't allowed back. 

Agree in principle but...

Footballers pay tax that goes to the NHS, loads of multi-billionare owners own loads of high street retail outlets, yet with a few exceptions, they all used tax payer money to furlough their staff.

Pretty much every business is unsustainable without customers, be it pub, shop, cafe or football club.

This could be better managed and a bailout would be helpful, but combined with a change in FFP. 

Take a bailout, and you are limited to free transfers for 'x' number of season, if your wage bill exceeds 100% of your usual income, then that over spend is down to the owner to cover and support could be offered after that.

Reality is, football plays by its own set of rules that make you wonder how on earth owners ever made any money in their nine to five job.

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Good posts from @Tipps69, @Prinny and @Matthew me.

However the bit about Nurses, teachers, etc, pay is not covid related is it?  It’s years of underfunding by this government.  Nobody is saying it’s a choice between footballers pay and nurses pay are they?  If it was, I’d say sod footballer pay...so your creating a scenario that isn’t there.  Yes, I get it could impact future funding if nurses, but imagine the £100s and £100s of millions spent in Serco for a test and trace or to Pestfix for PPE has been used in the NHS instead?  Bunch of crooks (putting it mildly)!

Anyway, we a bailout / help....what if it involved the government getting a stake in that club, with perhaps some transition to fans ownership or at least involvement in decision making going forward?  That would have merit surely?

I do accept it should be just a handout.

I also worry that PL support will come with strings attached, and suddenly we will see the concept of feeder clubs and B teams in the EFL.

I would rather the FA step in rather than PL.

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1 minute ago, Matthew me said:

Virgin has thousands of suppliers, staff, local businesses all connected

Their routes add billions to the UK economy.

We are talking about football...

 

 

 

You don’t think football adds to the economy? I agree with your sentiment but the government is preventing football from sustaining itself during this time. Football contributes a hell of a lot to the government in form of various taxes just like any of us. 
 

I don’t think Premier League or even championship clubs should be looking to the government for help but L1 and lower should definitely be able to receive government help. The PL should help as well as it is in its best interests to do so but it shouldn’t be solely on them to help. 95% or more of clubs do their best to run sustainably and just can’t because of covid. They shouldn’t be punished because a small % have not been responsible. 

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8 minutes ago, Matthew me said:

Virgin has thousands of suppliers, staff, local businesses all connected

Their routes add billions to the UK economy.

We are talking about football...

...that adds millions to the bank balances of footballers and their agents!

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good posts from @Tipps69, @Prinny and @Matthew me.

However the bit about Nurses, teachers, etc, pay is not covid related is it?  It’s years of underfunding by this government.  Nobody is saying it’s a choice between footballers pay and nurses pay are they?  If it was, I’d say sod footballer pay...so your creating a scenario that isn’t there.  Yes, I get it could impact future funding if nurses, but imagine the £100s and £100s of millions spent in Serco for a test and trace or to Pestfix for PPE has been used in the NHS instead?  Bunch of crooks (putting it mildly)!

Anyway, we a bailout / help....what if it involved the government getting a stake in that club, with perhaps some transition to fans ownership or at least involvement in decision making going forward?  That would have merit surely?

I do accept it should be just a handout.

I also worry that PL support will come with strings attached, and suddenly we will see the concept of feeder clubs and B teams in the EFL.

I would rather the FA step in rather than PL.

It's an interesting point, part public ownership, one that should be explored. But... I have a feeling that is against FIFA rules.

Obviously ways around it - just call is sponsorship under a different name, Man City for example. But would fans want to take on a small share in a loss making company?

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8 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good posts from @Tipps69, @Prinny and @Matthew me.

However the bit about Nurses, teachers, etc, pay is not covid related is it?  It’s years of underfunding by this government.  Nobody is saying it’s a choice between footballers pay and nurses pay are they?  If it was, I’d say sod footballer pay...so your creating a scenario that isn’t there.  Yes, I get it could impact future funding if nurses, but imagine the £100s and £100s of millions spent in Serco for a test and trace or to Pestfix for PPE has been used in the NHS instead?  Bunch of crooks (putting it mildly)!

Anyway, we a bailout / help....what if it involved the government getting a stake in that club, with perhaps some transition to fans ownership or at least involvement in decision making going forward?  That would have merit surely?

I do accept it should be just a handout.

I also worry that PL support will come with strings attached, and suddenly we will see the concept of feeder clubs and B teams in the EFL.

I would rather the FA step in rather than PL.

Fan ownership sounds a good call Dave

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9 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

You don’t think football adds to the economy? I agree with your sentiment but the government is preventing football from sustaining itself during this time. Football contributes a hell of a lot to the government in form of various taxes just like any of us. 
 

I don’t think Premier League or even championship clubs should be looking to the government for help but L1 and lower should definitely be able to receive government help. The PL should help as well as it is in its best interests to do so but it shouldn’t be solely on them to help. 95% or more of clubs do their best to run sustainably and just can’t because of covid. They shouldn’t be punished because a small % have not been responsible. 

So we help the clubs that are still signing players and asking for handouts???

Not a chance. That's total and utter madness 

If clubs can afford to sign new players and add to their wage bill, they shouldn't be asking for funds! It's totally sickening to believe people who've lost their jobs, companies and loved ones will have to get on with it.... While we consider paying football wages .

Take a deep breath and consider the reality of that. It's beyond madness 

Wealthy owners need to pay! Not us

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13 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Given that the Government have ensured the majority of the population are barely any worse off financially during this crisis, why don't the fans make a contribution equivalent to what they usually spend...

Or, why don't professional sportsman that get paid to play football and live a dream take a salary cut for six months instead of asking average Joe in the street to pay

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42 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

Like the rest of Boris's Covid19 scheme very muddled thinking... How can it be acceptable to have pubs open (even if only until 10pm) where people are congregated close together inside BUT not allow well spaced out spectators sitting outside at sports stadia. Nuts.

Ventilated- ie doors and maybe windows open.

Socially distanced.

Wearing masks at all times other than at table.

Talking of Table, Table Service only.

Don't think the contrast you present the full picture- would fans be obliged to wear masks watching football, how socially distanced would they be- would alcohol be sold? Lot of loose ends unclear.

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25 minutes ago, cidercity1987 said:

Given that the Government have ensured the majority of the population are barely any worse off financially during this crisis, why don't the fans make a contribution equivalent to what they usually spend...

Are you overlooking the significant spike in unemployment that is set to come not so far in the future.

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Difficult one, top PL have millions to waste, skewing the picture of football, and the usual taxpayer guff about funding nurses, overlooking the billions going to useless private companies in exchange for nothing.

Teams at all levels budgeted upon a limited fan return, hoping for further relaxation as the season goes on. This is clearly not going to happen, causing a variety of issues at a diverse range of Clubs from Championship to National League North/ South. Basically, without support from PL or Government, the structures collapse. The argument that the PL provides much of the bail out has merit, affordable and would hardly impoverish top players, but chances of it happening are minimal. 
One way forward might be PL players donating to the survival, with donations tax deductible. Without something happening, a lot of jobs lost, yet more destruction of community identity, and the Southern League could be flooded with quality ex-pros. All a huge mess, and listening to Dowden, I’m amazed he can walk and breathe at the same time, let alone grasp the complexities and sensitivity of football structures.

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Perhaps clubs who take State Aid should be under some kind of transfer embargo, until such a time as it is returned?

This has a dual effect of buying time to stabilise the finances and ensuring they don't need a bit more down the line. No easy answers, can't let the Sports pyramid- and this issue is Sportwide not just football- just implode but no easy answers.

Here's one. Tottenham used State Aid- this is for otherwise profitable companies so fair enough. I believe they took out a Bank of England Business related loan of £175m.

How then can they sign Doherty, Hojbjerg- sell Walker Peters and think Vertonghen out of contract and some though players sold, yes but also add Bale on loan with contribution to his huge wages and buy Reguilion- they don't need that loan then do they??

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

On the flipside, clubs at steps 8-10 are doing quite nicely out of this situation as football fans go and watch their local sides for a live football fix.

Apparently Brislington FC had their biggest crowd in 10 years on Saturday. 

Didn’t know that- but great to hear

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Anyway, we a bailout / help....what if it involved the government getting a stake in that club, with perhaps some transition to fans ownership or at least involvement in decision making going forward?  That would have merit surely?

I have wondered, if there’s a possibility that if it was a Premier League bailout, what would happen if the Premier League clubs asked for a % of ownership or first priority on a potential signing?

For example, if Aston Villa agreed to give us £20m to see us through but wanted first option or an already agreed price on signing Bakinson, Semenyo or Pring? (Remember, this is just an example). But it could be a similar scenario for any club, Derby have some talent coming through while they’ve already parted with some this summer but what if Man Utd said they were willing to put in £20m now but they’d want Sibley & / or Knight for nothing in a year or so’s time?

Or Utd want whatever they put into any club to give them a % of that club forever? I can’t see any of the Premier League clubs being willing to hand over their money without getting something back & with the current state of football I can’t see it being a loan where they’d expect 10% extra back on whatever they lend because with the current state of football finances outside of the Premier League there would be no guarantee on them getting a return on their investment?

Now for me, we are lucky enough that SL shouldn’t need to go ‘cap in hand’ but what about a Wycombe or Luton? They can take £20m now but in theory lose out on profiting from any potential young player coming through over the next 10 years because their ‘loan’ has to repaid in kind!

Some clubs will be so desperate that they will likely take any deal & there are Premier League clubs that will try to get something for every penny that they’ve lent but where will that leave these clubs in 5 years time? Unable to profit from selling star players for actual money for years to come would put these clubs back in a similar position to now.

I just can’t see this ending well for the majority of clubs, these clubs that are so desperate need to see that their ways need to change now because however much is loaned to them (and that’s what it’s likely to be, a loan rather than a free handout) & there would need to be an agreement that this ‘loan’ is to cover debts incurred, not to go out & sign another 6 £1m+ players on £20k+ p/w because all of a sudden they’ve got £20m available to them etc!

Could these troubled clubs be trusted to stick to such rules? Another question altogether in my view.

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3 hours ago, Matthew me said:

This is wrong.

People want the government to pay footballers salaries at a time when nurses earn £25k per year. Get a grip. 

It's not tax payers money that should be paying for footballers to play. It should be spent on the NHS and the true hero's of this pandemic 

Why don't they start by asking the wealthy owners to pay!!! Same as they did with virgin and Branson?

Scrap the FFP for a year and let owners fund it!...

Failing that, players have to take a pay cut.

Delay vat returns for a year

Do a deal with sky to broadcast all matches on tele instead of net.

Sell of naming rights, 10 year season tickets, etc etc 

There is a kernel of truth in this.

For years we have been told that the wages footballers receive (whilst Seemingly increasing at an alarmingly fast rate) were simply market forces at play and reflected the burgeoning incomes of clubs.

Guess what, football suddenly can’t afford to pay these wages anymore. Just like airlines, hotels and many other industries that are struggling.

I have every sympathy for them as ‘workers’ but to be honest football is just football, it was popular before tv and will be popular long after.

Im sorry that in amongst all of this footballers have suddenly found themselves on extraordinary wages.

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1 hour ago, SedRA said:

agreed. The pandemic has highlighted the unsustainiabilty of the football industry. It needs to be reformed now, rather than ask for the government to use tax payers money to keep the house of cards standing.  

100%, “please can you help us Boris to keep paying players £500k a week please” won’t go down well with many people.

I’m all for clubs paying salaries based on income, so if you have loads of cash and want to spend it on players then crack on, but when clubs spend above their means, or have no contingencies in place (I.e. when relegated or for when income has dried up) then they are at fault and gambling big time with football clubs.

 We are lucky that SL is seemingly happy to spend his own cash to keep us going, but other owners not so much.  Even at City we made staff at stadium redundant, why did SL not step in then to save them?

Football has been up its own arse for years, and the bubble could well burst for a lot of smaller clubs, which is very sad but so so inevitable based on the massive overspending by almost every club for years and years

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4 minutes ago, 054123 said:

There is a colonel of truth in this.

For years we have been told that the wages footballers receive (whilst Seemingly increasing at an alarmingly fast rate) were simply market forces at play and reflected the burgeoning incomes of clubs.

Guess what, football suddenly can’t afford to pay these wages anymore. Just like airlines, hotels and many other industries that are struggling.

I have every sympathy for them as ‘workers’ but to be honest football is just football, it was popular before tv and will be popular long after.

Im sorry that in amongst all of this footballers have suddenly found themselves on extraordinary wages.

Except in the Championship for a number of years, wages alone have exceeded turnover- and perhaps in the bottom two divisions in various cases as well- market forces to a point but even when times were good wages as a whole, and at the majority of clubs at this level have been in excess of turnover- that's an artifical bubble.

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Clubs should be bailed out but only with strict instructions on how that money can be used, and with reforms enforced. For instance, clubs which take the money (and it should be the same amount for each club) should be placed under paid transfer embargo for two years and wages frozen.

This is going to hurt, but hurt has been a long time coming for football. Football will never die, but it will change (and probably for the better).

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

On the flipside, clubs at steps 8-10 are doing quite nicely out of this situation as football fans go and watch their local sides for a live football fix.

Apparently Brislington FC had their biggest crowd in 10 years on Saturday. 

If that's the case and clubs do go to the wall, Brislington could be in league 1 before too long. :)

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2 hours ago, Matthew me said:

This is wrong.

People want the government to pay footballers salaries at a time when nurses earn £25k per year. Get a grip. 

It's not tax payers money that should be paying for footballers to play. It should be spent on the NHS and the true hero's of this pandemic 

Why don't they start by asking the wealthy owners to pay!!! Same as they did with virgin and Branson?

Scrap the FFP for a year and let owners fund it!...

Failing that, players have to take a pay cut.

Delay vat returns for a year

Do a deal with sky to broadcast all matches on tele instead of net.

Sell of naming rights, 10 year season tickets, etc etc 

Couldn't agree more! 

Why the hell should tax payers fund insanely inflated salaries?! They shouldn't. 

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1 hour ago, old_eastender said:

Like the rest of Boris's Covid19 scheme very muddled thinking... How can it be acceptable to have pubs open (even if only until 10pm) where people are congregated close together inside BUT not allow well spaced out spectators sitting outside at sports stadia. Nuts.

I dont know how many times people can answer this question (though personally I think pubs should have been one of the last things to open and on stricter measures but that's another debate)

It's not about sitting in a socially distanced seat it's everythng else that goes with. Facilities such as toilets and food/drink need to be considered. Queuing to get into the ground and use of the concourses and then actually having people to enforce these guidelines I guess.

I also imagine not every ground in each league is the same and some will have different challenges, presumably it wouldn;t be fair for some grounds to open and not others as it's an unlevel playing field?

I believe, through the trials, that these things are being tested and ironed out but given the current Government direction of tightening up, it's just not feasible to open more things.

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