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The end of football as we know it?


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This is actually the story of neo-liberalism playing out.

The big fish at the top, have different rules to the rest. Have access to more resources and aren't really interested in the small fry, as long as the system works to their advantage. 

As is becoming rapidly apparent, infinite economic growth on a finite planet is, frankly improbable. And so we have things like Climate Change and COVID, which correlate to the rise of neo-liberalism across the world. We've destroyed nature, and now nature is starting to eat us.

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10 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

This is actually the story of neo-liberalism playing out.

The big fish at the top, have different rules to the rest. Have access to more resources and aren't really interested in the small fry, as long as the system works to their advantage. 

As is becoming rapidly apparent, infinite economic growth on a finite planet is, frankly improbable. And so we have things like Climate Change and COVID, which correlate to the rise of neo-liberalism across the world. We've destroyed nature, and now nature is starting to eat us.

Deep. 

I feel like I need to start drinking at 09:07

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1 hour ago, man in the middle said:

Women started playing 

That was because the men were conscripted, not really because of financial problems. 

I guess I was wondering how the league and individual clubs coped with the disruption.

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16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Might happen but Football League and clubs have agreed to something else- though that may have to change given the Test events now aren't happening.

They have agreed to change, but abandon? Not yet.

Is all on the Football League website.

I've looked at the EFL web site but can't find anything definite. It seems most Championship clubs (mainly the larger ones) want to abandon it but several others aren't happy with this so it still seems undecided. The Premier League have relaxed their FFP rules as have UEFA so we'll have to wait and see what happens in the Championship.

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12 hours ago, Snufflelufagus said:

For me the obscene wages in the Prem are surely a good thing for the tax payer? Someone mentioned Phil Foden had gone from £30000 a week to £150000 a week. Well that means in theory he is now paying about £55000 grand a week in tax which equals 2 'extra in theory' Nurses salary.

I get that argument, but for me we need to address the system that created it surely? There's something wrong that it can even happen that there's such disparity between a footballer and a nurse. Clearly the system you mention above isn't really working because we have lots of footballers earning that much, and lots of folk like nurses, teachers, police etc. earning a relative pittance and our country (apparently) struggling to pay for them as well somehow so making cuts left and right. That indicates the system isn't doing its job.

To be honest though even the ultra rich footballers are small fry as ridiculous as that sounds. Let's take Phil Foden on his £150,000 a week compared to the (sort of) owner Sheik Mansour.

On his £150k / wk how long until Phil is getting close to Sheik Mansours 22 billion?

After a year Phil is at £7.8 million. After 10 years that's £78m. After 100 it's £780 million.

After 1000 years of working at £150k / wk phil is at £7.8 billion, so 1/3 of the way there! Nice. So it'd take him around 3,000 YEARS on a measly £150,000 / week to earn that much.

Now do the same thing for you or I... That's the problem that really needs addressing!

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Sometime, I think the use of ‘football’ as a generic term is unhelpful. The PL has vast wealth, and could function comfortably with reduced income. Championship less so, although a lot of the problems are self-inflicted. Below that in the EFL, the majority of clubs are not viable without help as they have limited other income and would be unlikely to sell enough video streams. National League Premier, even more so, low income and professional set ups in the main. Then there are the lower National League levels which are almost closer to the levels below, than the professional game, and could probably be allowed limited fans without any great risk. Maybe different solutions at different levels? 
Sadly unlikely, as Dowden comes across as clueless and way out of his depth.

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Maybe the long term future of British football will look more like an NFL or NBA model... with only 2 maybe 3 pro leagues, with only the elite athletes being paid "pros"... it would be sad but seems more sustainable. I haven't done nearly enough (or any) research but the fact that you can get an NFL "season pass" to watch all games for a 5er a month, makes me think televisation is more profitable than the current English lower league football model, with the fanbase concentrated around a small number of franchises rather than spread amongst the numerous teams across many divisions... unless the teams at the top decide to share the wealth, which I can't see them doing in the current capitalist minded commercial footy model.

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In this present climate it's easy to point at the money sloshing around in the prem,but there are many more examples we can all pick on. How can the BBC justify the extortionate wages paid out to its employees ? How can anyone justify a newsreader pocketing more than the Prime minister ? Or a football pundit( jobs for the boys ) raking in millions of TV Licence payers money ?  As for the talentless "celebrities"  , well, they fall into the same group as a lot of the so called plastic gangsta rappers. No talent LOADSA money.

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Football has made a rod for it's own back.

"The premier league is making billions and spending billions, more power them!" No.

The system is now so heavily weighted in the 'big guys' favour because for years the rules and regulations have been slowly blurred and eventually eroded as they've grown fatter and fatter.

The small clubs never had a chance. Ultimately football is a reflection of the real world. Politics. Business. 

Football has made billions for decades on the back of the little peoples' income, TV, advertising, merchandise, gambling etc. (That's not even mentioning the even shadier financial goings on with loans and laundering in some cases, another story)

Now the little guys in football need help from the even littler guys; the tax payers, us lot, at the bottom of the pile. Picking up the pieces again. Why?

Because those people at the top have managed to convince us little people it's OK. It's OK because they earned it, fair and square. Level playing field for all of us, you reap what you sow. Disagree and you're a dangerous marxist. That's the world, right? 

World's ****** ladies and gents. (Yes I agree this isn't a helpful post. What's the solution, reform, but that's easier said than done.)

giphy.gif

Edited by Alessandro
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1 hour ago, Chappers said:

Sometime, I think the use of ‘football’ as a generic term is unhelpful. The PL has vast wealth, and could function comfortably with reduced income. Championship less so, although a lot of the problems are self-inflicted. Below that in the EFL, the majority of clubs are not viable without help as they have limited other income and would be unlikely to sell enough video streams. National League Premier, even more so, low income and professional set ups in the main. Then there are the lower National League levels which are almost closer to the levels below, than the professional game, and could probably be allowed limited fans without any great risk. Maybe different solutions at different levels? 
Sadly unlikely, as Dowden comes across as clueless and way out of his depth.

Is Dowden the guy who played the “ginger tossed” in Game On? 😜

On a serious point, the way this government is using and abusing the PL and it’s players is disgusting.  Through them under the bus, then want them to help their PR machine.  Cake and eat it.

This one for football and government to work together on.  It’s not PL bail out the EFL and government wash their hands of it.  One, it’s wider than that, football doesn’t start and end with the PL, nor does it stop at Lg2 either.  So FA, PL, EFL and government need to get together and work it through together.

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This will affect Teams within the Conference and Conference N/S who are due to play in the FA Cup 2nd Qualifier Round this weekend.

The FA have released the following guidance to clubs today.  
 
“The FA has been liaising with Government regarding attendance of spectators at FA Cup fixtures in light of the recent Government announcements. Following The FA’s latest discussions with Government, the agreed position for matches in the Second Round Qualifying will be as follows: –  

  • Where an Elite Club is playing another Elite Club, the match must be played behind closed doors (i.e. with no spectators permitted to be in attendance) 
  • Where an Elite Club is playing a Non-Elite Club: 
  • Where the match is played at the Elite Club’s ground, the match must be played behind closed doors (i.e. with no spectators permitted to be in attendance) 
  • Where the match is played at the Non-Elite Club’s ground, spectators of the home Club only shall be permitted to attend the match in accordance with the latest applicable National League System Spectator Guidance. Both clubs shall ensure that spectators of the visiting Club are not in attendance at the match. 
  • Where a Non-Elite Club is playing another Non-Elite Club, spectators (of both the home and visiting Clubs) shall be permitted to attend the match in accordance with the latest applicable National League System Spectator Guidance 

For the avoidance of doubt, as at the date of this communication, Clubs in Steps 1 & 2 of The FA National League System are considered to be “Elite Clubs” and Clubs in Step 3 and below of The FA National League System are considered to be “Non-Elite Clubs”. 

This position shall apply for matches in The Emirates FA Cup Second Round Qualifying and will be reviewed prior to the Third Round Qualifying.” 

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Relalted to this, I was listening to Talksport earlier and they had  feature about Kenny Jacket, Pompey’s Manager.

Had one of Pompey’s fans on saying that many fans think that the club want to sack Jackett ( Boring out dated football, despite results being OK) but that in the current cilimate the club just doesn’t have the money for the $400,000 pay off to which KJ would be entitled. He went on to say that another Pompey fan has started a crowdfunding site to try snd raise the money for the pay off! :) 

TS did speculate about how many managers’s jobs might be saved over the next few months only because the club’s financial plight means they can’t afford to sack them?

Perhaps lucky we got rid of LJ when we did in every sense!!

 

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Absolutely ludicrous to compare football clubs saving non-league to hedge fund managers saving each other. 

Perhaps if every town in the country had its own hedge fund manager, and perhaps if people built lives around watching the hedge fund manager manage his portfolio on a Saturday afternoon, then Dyche would have a relevant comparison. 

Until then, Dyche is the new village idiot.

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On 28/09/2020 at 20:48, Snufflelufagus said:

For me the obscene wages in the Prem are surely a good thing for the tax payer? Someone mentioned Phil Foden had gone from £30000 a week to £150000 a week. Well that means in theory he is now paying about £55000 grand a week in tax which equals 2 'extra in theory' Nurses salary.

But the flip side of it is that everyone has to pay out more on tickets, shirts etc to cover these costs 

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On 28/09/2020 at 13:40, cidercity1987 said:

Sure a lot of people couldn't contribute but if someone said to me donate what you can to keep Bristol City afloat then I would do so.

Then you're a mug given your net worth vs. that of our owner. The Government shouldn't be bailing out football clubs with taxpayers money imo.

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It's behind a paywall but seems Championship clubs overspending and creative accounting- well documented on here in various threads- has done the Championship few favours in these talks.

Thougfh one or two of the sales have been 2019 and in one or two cases also included other fixed assets!

Quote

Why Championship clubs' overspending and financial troubles are stalling Premier League's EFL bailout

With the Premier League reluctant to bail out the EFL with a £250m package, Tom Morgan looks at the financial pressures in the second tier

By Tom Morgan, Sports News Correspondent and John Percy 1 October 2020 • 3:58pm
 

After another summer of £1 billion transfer spending by the biggest clubs, the Premier League is gaining little sympathy as negotiations rumble on over a bailout for the cash-strapped English Football League.

Richard Masters,  the top tier chief executive, remains determined to establish some ground rules, however, after scant progress was made in the latest round of talks with Rick Parry, the EFL chairman.

Ongoing reluctance at Premier League HQ boils down to exasperation amongst executives at a decade of financial mismanagement by clubs in the second tier. A counter-offer to the EFL's £250 million request appears close, but only if executives can get assurances that the Championship will finally get its house in order.

Financial returns by the clubs in football's second tier support Masters' case – wage to revenue spending is as unsustainable as anywhere in the world of sport, and previous handouts from the Premier League had inadvertently helped push the second tier off the cliff long before Covid-19.

Overall, operating losses have more than doubled in five years, from £282 million in 2014 to £603 million last year. Meanwhile, clubs have been spending 100 per cent or more of their revenue on salaries in six of the last seven years.

Number crunching by both Deloitte and leading football finance expert Kieran Maguire  brings into clearer focus a direct correlation with parachute and solidarity payments that have fueled a rank overspending on salaries.

A surge in payouts from the Premier League following record-breaking £1.7 billion domestic TV rights sell off ahead of the 2016/17 season was spent almost entirely on wage increases, Maguire explains. "When the Premier League TV deal was renewed in 2017, there was an extra £148 million in the Championship mainly due to higher parachute and solidarity payments, but clubs simply spent this on wages, which went up by £153 million," he told the Telegraph Sport. 

 
The smaller Premier League clubs – in a division that has lost around £1 billion since lockdown in March – have a good case to argue they are in little better shape than their rivals in the league below. Brighton, for example, have said they will have to shed jobs before contributing to a bail-out. Other smaller elite clubs estimate they are losing up to double the average £1 million-a-month hit that each Championship club is taking.
 

Much of the £250 million requested by the EFL would end up being a Championship sticking plaster, they believe. While in desperate search of promotion, Aston Villa, Derby County, Sheffield Wednesday, Reading and Birmingham have generated nearly a quarter of a billion pounds from selling their stadiums to companies controlled by club owners in 2018.

"Given the large sums coming to these clubs you can see the reticence of PL clubs from providing additional funding, although this is harsh on clubs such as Rotherham, Luton and Millwall who operate at much lower income and wage levels." Maguire adds.
 

The Premier League currently gives about £350 million a year to EFL clubs via parachute and solidarity payments. With no curbs on wage spending, the last available accounts show Aston Villa, Norwich, Derby, Sheffield Wednesday and Wigan all spent beyond 150 per cent of revenue on wages. Reading were worst hit of all, recording figures of 226 per cent.

As Telegraph Sport disclosed on the weekend, the EFL and Premier League might find common ground in agreeing on a new Championship salary cap as part of a long-term potential reset. EFL board director Mark Ashton, a chief executive at Bristol City, said he could see wage limits introduced within months. "We're in an emotional business and clubs stretch too far, making decisions you probably wouldn't make in normal business, particularly in the Championship because everyone's reaching for that Promised Land of the Premier League," he said.

Maguire, meanwhile, says he has some sympathy for the Premier League's plight. "Whether current parachute and solidarity payments are sufficient or fairly distributed is up for debate," says Maguire, adding the PL "isn’t in as strong a position as some claim"

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On 28/09/2020 at 11:27, exAtyeoMax said:

Out of interest, what happened to the clubs during the war? 

Though leagues were suspended clubs continued to play local matches against each other in front of large, enthusiastic crowds. Players would be conscripted from whatever resource was available and that included locally stationed military personnel. We had a few famous names turn out for us. Shankley & Paisley both turned out though not sure if it was in the same game against Cardiff, as is sometimes quoted.

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1 minute ago, BTRFTG said:

Though leagues were suspended clubs continued to play local matches against each other in front of large, enthusiastic crowds. Players would be conscripted from whatever resource was available and that included locally stationed military personnel. We had a few famous names turn out for us. Shankley & Paisley both turned out though not sure if it was in the same game against Cardiff, as is sometimes quoted.

Yes, and I believe there was a league of sorts, rather unimaginatively called the 'War League'.

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7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes, and I believe there was a league of sorts, rather unimaginatively called the 'War League'.

I believe from what my old man told me many of the matches were played midweek afternoons. I think on a couple of occasions he managed to race his tug and crew against the tide and up into the basin such they could nip across the park to catch City playing.

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